Suicide Squad Mafia, Game Over: Number the Dead

[Carthrat]

DHE: You can't attack people for being aggressive, not really. You can't substitute that in for actual suspicions or attacks on their arguments. It reads to me like 'your argument is so good, it must be scummy', which just doesn't work for me.

On the side, I'll agree that town roleblocker is something of a difficult role, but you're still best off trying to block scumkills with it. Your odds might suck if you pick people out randomly- but you shouldn't be doing that, and I like to think finding scum isn't completely impossible.

<->

Strago asked about Excal, so... here we go.

In general he has a somewhat moderate frivolity index, which is the fun name I'm giving to people who talk about trivial things with little effect on the game, including but not limited to asking people to configure sigs/avatars, saying "It's time to look over people!", and random role speculation. And, yes, I find this talk slightly scummy. I won't go through his posts and mention every time he acts like this, check his record if you must.

-Early case on Snow day 2, so not faulting him there...

-...but later in the day, after I'd dropped some stuff on Snow for his words on Bardiche, he made absolutely no mention of it in a much larger post, although I think this would've been worthy of mention. He doesn't really talk about Snow at all right up until he unvotes him. He admits that he tossed the vote there in the first place just to get attention- well, attention was got! Snow's silly mistakes were in plain view! And yet he doesn't even discuss them? Excal didn't follow up on his own prod, here; I find this to be quite bad.

-Slamming Meeple at the time he did for jumping off Andy and then jumping on again, I do not get it. Somehow Meeple's second vote for Andrew becomes more suspicious because he left a jokevote and then returned. That's.. not really reasoning, not given the usual importance granted to jokevotes (i.e. virtually none.) Meeple's third-partiness has no bearing on this, just to mention. Given that this was mentioned very late in day 2, I can't see it in a positive light.

-Cheerily jumps back on Snow today, despite very little mention of suspicions on him the previous day beyond a prodvote that he doesn't seem to care much about. And do my eyes deceive me, or has he not posted anything at all on Snow today beyond that simple vote for him? Not even a comment on the present arguments for him? I would feel that should be a prerequisite to the vote.

I have what I see as fairly textbook lurking along with jumping onto convenient cases, both Meeple and Snow. This does not look good, not at all, and Excal has rapidly been propelled to the guy I'd like to lynch after Snow, and can completely understand Strago's thoughts on him at this point.

I can take Excal not posting much, but his posts just don't cover material that he badly needed to talk about. I, too, wish to have people talk about this, because while Jo'ou needs to hang, Excal is virtually on the same level. Much like Strago, I am now interested in hearing what other people think about this. My problems with Snow - early talk with Bardiche, general flailing after that, misused roleblockerness and his recent silly attacks on Corwin for 'pushing my lynch too hard' - are not that far in front.

[Sierra]

"I know alllll your secrets," Poison Ivy crooned, temporarily drawing the attention of the bickering crowd. "Well, okay, only some of them. But I can tell you that...Carthrat and Joe Rambo are filthy liars! No, wait, that's wrong, let me focus here for a moment...yes, I can see that they were telling the truth about their stated abilities (or lack thereof). Good to know, eh?"

Suddenly, there was a break in the roiling clouds above Belle Reve and a ray of light shone down upon the mad botanist, blinding in the gloom, and an entity spoke from above, its voice like a peal of thunder.

"Poison Ivy! In the name of all that is good and just, ye are hereby condemned for taking part in Batman and Robin. Contemplate thy shame in the hell of Weed-B-Gone!"

And with that, a giant foot shot down from the heavens and crushed her.

Taishyr--Poison Ivy, AKA Pamela Lillian Isley (Town Lie Detector)--was smote by the gods of good taste!

Updated votecount forthcoming.

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

Bardiche (0): Laggy
Laggy (0): AndrewRogue
Excal (1): Strago
Shale (0): Laggy, Jo'ou Ranbu, Carthrat
JR (5): Corwin, Carthrat, QuietRain, Excal, Laggy
Andrew (1): Jo'ou

With eleven alive, it takes six to lynch.

Mod's note: Snow is now -1 to hammer on account of the vote threshold lowering.

[Corwin]

Yeah, okay. I'm trying to lynch people who act the scummiest of the lot, and I lead town on scum-approved kills. When we inevitably hit scum with my methods, which have been proven time and time again, I will doubtlessly be accused of bussing.

Fine, I get that I can't win. Even though my track record has been one successful lynch train (which resulted in a mislynch, but day 1, people!) and one unsuccessful attempt to get a person I think is scummiest lynched day 2. For all my awesome mind control powers over everyone, I don't seem to be all that effective with my master puppeteer act.

And if I sound a bit upset here, it's possibly because I am. I try to post more to make up for not being there when most of you are awake, and it's aggressive and verbose and walls of texty. I decide to cut down on it a bit due to lots of recent work and these complaints, and I already see the murmurs of a slow start, no doubt laying the ground for when people say that me not posting as much now is scummy.


Onto my thoughts. I doubt Tai would request a modkill and not be truthful in that post about his role/investigations, because yeah, we'll find out soon enough so why bother? [EDIT: Mmm, Cid's post just confirms Tai's role and alignment] Hearing that JR hasn't lied about his role, at least, takes me somewhat aback. He still looks the scummiest to me, in large part due to trying to go all apathetic and bouncing back once the danger has passed. If we unvote him now, he is quite likely to do this again, and I see it as a ploy to survive on the part of scum. And the most convincing evidence is his claimed choice of night targets, which is inconsistent and follows a logic I don't find viable (or JR could be lying about that, I feel it is a distinct possibility, for all we know scripted events gave Rat his vote).

Since Excal seems to be getting the most focus, I'll take a look at him here.

I think that laying a vote on JR the way he did day 3 is better than just skirting on account of RL issues. How many people here just went 'I have a busy life, mafia is not my top priority, no one is so scummy-looking I'll actually vote'? Voting happens to leave a trail, and it's important to show what you believe in.

That said, I would certainly want to see more (a lot more) now that RL seems to have been dealt with.

And, uh, I don't actually have anything to add to what's been said, really, without combing his posts from the beginning of day 1. And that would give me... day 1 posts. I hope I'll form a better opinion as Excal participates more. Rat's concerns over convenient cases could easily be dispelled or strengthened as we look at what Excal does next day (if he is town and he isn't NK'd, or the rest of us don't decide to lynch-switch to him today; I don't think we should since JR must be lynched).

[Strago]

Corwin: It's an attitude thing. There's a fine line between aggressive and hostile, and especially with Taishyr -- and somewhat Snow -- thing I really thought you were landing on the hostile side in a way that was unproductive. That said...

Yeah, okay. I'm trying to lynch people who act the scummiest of the lot, and I lead town on scum-approved kills.

Could you perhaps reword this? I'm... not at all sure what you meant by it, and I'm trying to get out of the habit of twisting people's slips/weird phrasing over in my mind until they become scumtells. Scum-approved kills?

Can we please not modkill Bard for his error. Arrrrrgh.

Other than that, I still truly think that Excal looks more like Snow, and I'm torn between hammering Snow to potentially reinvigorate this game with a flip and new info, and sticking to my guns because of how close we might be to LYLO. The latter seems to be a better course of action for now.

[Strago]

Excal looks more like Snow? Excal looks more like scum. Durrr. It's early.

[Strago]

And, then again, there's the fact that I don't see... much of anything Snow could do to clear his name at this point. He simply looks too dirty to too many people. Which means that even if I do get the necessary teeth pulled to switch our lynch-track to Excal, tomorrow's still gonna be All Snow All The Time, likely enough. Grarghle.

[Corwin]

Corwin: It's an attitude thing. There's a fine line between aggressive and hostile, and especially with Taishyr -- and somewhat Snow -- thing I really thought you were landing on the hostile side in a way that was unproductive. That said...

Yeah, okay. I'm trying to lynch people who act the scummiest of the lot, and I lead town on scum-approved kills.

Could you perhaps reword this? I'm... not at all sure what you meant by it, and I'm trying to get out of the habit of twisting people's slips/weird phrasing over in my mind until they become scumtells. Scum-approved kills?

DHE: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg25522#msg25522 (emphasis mine)

Corwin certainly doesn't have that problem. He's posted a lot (after a slow start). He does however feel very aggressive, and has been unsettling me the entire game because of it. Honest playstyle difference? Good chance! But it could also be masking a scum taking control of townie discussion and making sure the targets we lynch are scum-approved.

Strago, could you really miss this? Scum-approved being the same expression, and the post is question is only five above yours (two of which are mod posts). Need I also point out my tone in said post, which was a direct reaction to the linked post by DHE, first and foremost?

Then, there's also you going 'I could hammer but I think we should debate more. Except I'm not providing new targets or arguments.' Please explain that attitude.

[Sierra]

Can we please not modkill Bard for his error. Arrrrrgh.

Mod's note: We already had one modkill today and I doubt another would improve anyone's attitude. I'll let it slide, but for the love of god, man, don't do it again (Bard or anyone else) or it will be an instakill.

[Shale]

Okay, I wanted to put more breadth into my discussions, but it's very obviously time for a WOT (or at least wall of quotes) assessment on Snow. Humbly requesting no hammer while I put that together.

[Strago]

Corwin: It's an attitude thing. There's a fine line between aggressive and hostile, and especially with Taishyr -- and somewhat Snow -- thing I really thought you were landing on the hostile side in a way that was unproductive. That said...

Yeah, okay. I'm trying to lynch people who act the scummiest of the lot, and I lead town on scum-approved kills.

Could you perhaps reword this? I'm... not at all sure what you meant by it, and I'm trying to get out of the habit of twisting people's slips/weird phrasing over in my mind until they become scumtells. Scum-approved kills?

DHE: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg25522#msg25522 (emphasis mine)

Corwin certainly doesn't have that problem. He's posted a lot (after a slow start). He does however feel very aggressive, and has been unsettling me the entire game because of it. Honest playstyle difference? Good chance! But it could also be masking a scum taking control of townie discussion and making sure the targets we lynch are scum-approved.

Strago, could you really miss this? Scum-approved being the same expression, and the post is question is only five above yours (two of which are mod posts). Need I also point out my tone in said post, which was a direct reaction to the linked post by DHE, first and foremost?

Apparently I could. My bad.

Then, there's also you going 'I could hammer but I think we should debate more. Except I'm not providing new targets or arguments.' Please explain that attitude.

Uh, I'm still thinking over the case against Snow myself? And I... have been presenting Excal as a target, and while he may not be "new" or exciting enough for you whatnot, I did pretty clearly ask other players if they would weigh in on him. Since it's rather necessary for others to vote for him also if he's going to get lynched.

[Corwin]

You have been presenting him, Strago, yes. It was more the way you phrased things that rubbed me the wrong way. You sound both resigned to a JR lynch today (and is this actually a bad thing? I don't see anyone scummier) and unwilling to move on. You say 'Excal looks more like Snow', and I realize you said it was meant to be scum, but it's quite telling. Doesn't it mean you think both are very scummy? In that case, wouldn't it do more than 'invigorate the game' for us to lynch JR?

[Strago]

Heh. And now my own tendency to nail people for slips in typing comes back to bite me in the ass. Yay karma. I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that it was a typo. *shrugs*

And... yeah, I thought I made it clear that one of the reasons I was considering hammering Snow was to give the game a kick in the pants, despite the fact that I think Excal looks worse. I really thought I'd conveyed that. As far as trying to twist my typo into my thinking they both look scummy but wanting to lynch Excal instead for some reason... no. Something about the case against Snow doesn't sit right with me, and I wish I could back that up objectively.

[Shale]

Okay, Snow on Day 1: Makes all of one substantial post on anything, and it's mainly a summary of what's happening. I know he had a good real-life reason for the absence, but "Tom is distracting, OK is crazy, and Delta is new to the forum) isn't exactly the heights of analysis I'd want from my only post of the day.

Day 2: Snow vs. Bardiche, round 1, fight! My feeling on that call-out hasn't changed since it happened; I don't like it at all.

Then, there's the fact that, while you can't hide the existence of Anonyvotes, there's no reason to go "oh I cannot hide that" and deliberately blow your cover for the sake of blowing it (which is what you did).

This is bad, bad logic; basically, it translates to "I know you can't hide anonyvotes, but you should have tried to hide the anonyvotes." I know he's since backed off, but that doesn't mean he wasn't trying to advance the argument, and it very much feels like he's throwing suspicion on Bard for the sake of throwing suspicion on Bard. Also, in light of later events, this rings hollow:

Regardless, you will excuse me for being uncomfortable with role-claiming without an immediate, life-threatening reason

Says the guy who roleclaimed at -4 to hammer on a slow-moving day. I know, suicidal tendencies etc., but it seems to belie the idea that he's got a gut aversion to roleclaims.

I've already talked about Snow's last post of Day 2, but to reiterate: lots of words, little said, no textual analysis. Although reviewing it makes me notice something else - he spends all of a nonspecific paragraph talking about Meeple, which...given that Meep was pretty clearly on the chopping block, is a strange thing to do. He just says he disagrees with the case and moves on, finally placing a "stop lurking" vote on me, instead of looking at the people who are training somebody for what he thinks are bad reasons.

Also, there's a pattern to his Day 2 cases. He goes after Bardiche, then pulls off quickly when people yell at him for it, then goes into suicide mode and pulls out of that pretty speedily, then goes after Corwin and pulls off that. And the end of the day the only person he's said he's suspicious of is me, and like I said before there's not much analysis required there.

In short? I wouldn't complain about a Snow lynch. "Throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" is not a town-friendly way to play, and the ease with which he abandons cases definitely rubs me the wrong way even independent of the problems with those cases. I'd vote him, but what with -1 to hammer I'm loath to cut off active discussion. Other things I need to consider if I get another chance to post this game day: Excal, Strago, Carthrat (who doesn't look suspicious to me offhand, but when someone is roleblocked and a kill disappears on the same day, this should require deeper analysis by default).

[Laggy]

Corwin, for the record, the main thing that bothers me about you is not your argument or your aggressiveness but your absolute zeal and conviction that Snow will flip scum and all the cards will fall into place when we lynch him. Are you so confident that you're willing to stake the odds and write posts that basically say "yeah, when he flips, we'll know what he's lied about and make scum connections, etc" (if I recall from your first Day 1 post) without... at all considering other possibilities, aside from the most basic one (what if he DOESN'T flip scum?).

Now, I never disagreed with the case on him (obviously not, I was on it initially on Day 2 and on it now) but, unlike yourself, I am not absolutely sure in it. I certainly think it's enough to push a case and lynch because there's a good chance that Snow is scum (and, for that matter, the fact that Snow's resignation makes me cement my wants to lynch him today), but every single time the subject's come up you've pretty much already treated him as confirmed scum and it makes me really wonder how you will react and respond should the flip be town. You can't go and complain, with that kind of mentality in your posts, that everyone's going to at least look at the possibility of you as scum leading a lynch train if Snow flips town (and saying you're busing... that possibility hadn't really even occurred to me, the single-mindedness in which you've pursued Snow makes me look at it as unlikely, at the least.) In short, I suspect that you'll get the vindication you want if you do indeed turn out to be correct, but given you've shown basically no inclination if any OTHER possibility, expect glaring looks of suspicion from myself (if not others) if Snow indeed does turn out to be town. It's not so much the logic behind your argument, which is sound, than the attitude you've portrayed while pressing it, which bothers me.

Excal is definitely number 2 on my list of other suspects, while we're discussing it - I said as much when Bardiche brought it up, and I think it was a fairly good case. Rat said it best when he said that he didn't have an issue so much with post count as he did with post content, and while Excal's had valid reasons to be around when there wasn't all that much original discussion to be inserted, it... well, feels too convenient as a scum shield. However, I can't say the case on him is anywhere near as strong as the case on Snow today, so I doubt that will be changing my vote.

[Laggy]

*first Day 3 post, argh. Day 1 is a memory I wish not to go back to.

[Laggy]

Other random thoughts:

- Tai confirming roles is nice if nothing else.
- I would preferably not like to drag this day out much longer. It's already fast approaching the length of Day 2, and I think it's time for everyone to get their last thoughts in before proceeding with the lynch, barring extraordinary circumstances.
- Dread Thomas still hasn't posted. Despite several people doubting the value of his word, I would still like to hear from him.

[Carthrat]

Other things I need to consider if I get another chance to post this game day: Excal, Strago, Carthrat (who doesn't look suspicious to me offhand, but when someone is roleblocked and a kill disappears on the same day, this should require deeper analysis by default).

I actually need to stomp on this now, since Tai already mentioned it and some people (although evidently not all) didn't notice; I am voteless and have no redeeming powers that I know of.

I am pretty much disregarding most posts since my last one, as they seem to be mostly boring back-and-forth sniping over how aggressive people are and people agreeing that Snow is scummy without voting for him. I just have nothing to say to that, and these posts don't do anything for me. Eventually someone will make up their mind and hammer, so... yeah. If anyone has something really enlightening to say, they should frankly have said it already. :/

[Laggy]

Hey, I voted, dammit. =p

[Corwin]

Alright. I will admit, grudgingly, that my 99% certainty from the beginning of day 3 has dropped slightly BUT I am still very much confident that JR is scum and he is certainly the scummiest person around. The whole giving up thing again today is yet more proof. Attack, feign giving up, recover, attack again. I don't trust it as a pattern, because it feels extremely fake.

Why have I lost a bit of the certainty? Well, because we had Tai confirm JR's role, and had Tai flip to confirm his role and alignment. I now know that JR hasn't lied about everything, for one. But I hate being played and I had the certainty he would hang day 2 like he should have. Meeple did, instead, and while he was ITP and it's not a total loss for us and all the caveats, I would have preferred the one I consider scummiest to die straight away to deny them the chance of using any power roles they might have. I feel that if I let up on him even a little JR would find a way to wring enough sympathy to coast by another day, and that is just unacceptable to me.

[Shale]

Other things I need to consider if I get another chance to post this game day: Excal, Strago, Carthrat (who doesn't look suspicious to me offhand, but when someone is roleblocked and a kill disappears on the same day, this should require deeper analysis by default).

I actually need to stomp on this now, since Tai already mentioned it and some people (although evidently not all) didn't notice; I am voteless and have no redeeming powers that I know of.

Which doesn't rule out powerless scum's ability to make nightkills. Considering all the options, here.

[Bardiche]

I'm seconding Laggy's request for EvilTom to post before we drop the hammer. He only has one post a Day, we should at least let him use it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm just going to drop the aggressive vs. not debate, since it feels more and more like a playstyle concern. If there's a part of the argument you think is relevant to this game itself I will respond, but otherwise yeah.

Excal... has defended himself, at least. Reading those posts eases my suspicions of him a little. But looking over his posts again, the fact of the matter is he has indeed been very lurkerish, his vote on Snow with very little discussion on him today. Well, I expect he'll live to Day 4 (being realistic here, I don't see the train on Snow suddenly collapsing to allow one on him, and I wouldn't lead such a train anyway), so he'll get a chance to brave town's scrutiny and hopefully contribute some real content. Works for me.

On Snow: Getting around to him last of the suspects. What is there to say? I haven't said much on him today myself, since I've not really given him a good review until now. Suffice to say the breakdown stuff does still lolok bad. And to add to that, there's his choice of roleblock targets. In his defence of blocking Rat, he says he does it because Rat is most likely to have a role. Not because Rat is most likely to be scum, which as a town roleblocker is surely what you should do. The problem here is that Snow's choice for roleblock makes very good sense as scum. Truthful he may be about his power, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'd intended to just lie about his roleblocks and pretend he was failing at them, and only owned up on Rat when he thought he could get townie cred by giving Rat his vote back.

I'm willing to vote for Snow, obviously holding off due to hammer though. Waiting on Shale analyses if he wants to post those, and Tom's post if he decides to actually show up. Would rather not drag things out toooo long, though.


Requisite Ninja Edit:

Rat, I was under the impression you never specifically claimed you had no other powers? Unless Tai's power means that "Partial Truth" is returned even for unrelated powers you don't claim. If I'm wrong... well, see Shale. The main reason you might incur some suspicion is that there was one less kill last night, and we know you were roleblocked.

[Shale]

At work, no time for a full post, but a request of the mod:

With the modkill, is there any way for the game to end before tomorrow morning (i.e. are we in potential LYLO)?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I have a sneaking suspicion this is one of those we-won't-be-informed-of-LYLO games (vote-affecting roles and all), but I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask.