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Author Topic: Farmel vs. the DL  (Read 5182 times)

SnowFire

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Farmel vs. the DL
« on: July 01, 2008, 06:26:22 AM »
Because movement abilities always need more hype.

Farmel, as those who've played Wild ARMs 4 will remember, is a gimmick boss designed to be fought by a WA4 team, not in a duel.  (Same deal with a lot of Brionac, really.  Belial & Lambda's translation to the DL is extremely weird.).  She's got three moves: Darkness Stance, Fortress Stance, and Barrier Stance.  She's got a Hamedo-like 9999 damage counter to anything you try and do to her while she's in Darkness Stance, and the only way to break it is to force her to move out of the center hex.  In-game, this means Arnaud's Isolate, and allegedly Yulie's Replace as well.  This move alone means that people in the vast majority of combat systems are instantly out of luck in this fight, unless you count how much movement is going on in FMVs or something.  Even if you can get beyond that, she's got her other two stances, which null all physicals and null all magic respectively.

For interpretation purposes, let's not let Farmel spam Darkness Stance after it's been broken once (like in game), but we will let her spam whichever of the other two stances she likes (she won't do this in-game).  So you need to hit the full trifecta to win.  On the bright side, you don't need to win fast; she never attacks.

One tricky interpretation issue is movement spells that also do damage - I don't believe any such ability exists in WA4, so it's hard to say.  You can see it as breaking Darkness Stance, eating Finest Arts and doing nothing, or working as far as breaking the stance but still generating a 2x PCHP counter.  Myself, I'd say that so long as the movement ability is cataclysmic enough, it'll work.  It's tougher for "damage abilities that also move-" certainly your average SH2-3/Grandia physical shouldn't work.  On the other hand, hitting someone into the air with a Grandia III critical or the SH "air" moves is mostly used for positioning.  Still, I'd have to say that those don't work, at least in my view.  There should be a clear "rearrange the field" or "move a character off this area guaranteed" thing attached to an ability, like Grandia II's Gravity, or Grandia II Howlnado (at least IIRC Howlnado correctly).

-----
Some ideas so far:

Arnaud clearly has this in the bag, as in game.  Isolate / Physical / Blast.  If Yulie Replace hype works, then she wins with Physical/Material.  For that matter, the Divine Weapon's got a "splay the party about in random locations" move, too, IIRC.

Fire Emblem 9 has a promising start thanks to Shove, but it does worse than you'd think.  Tanith and Naesala have both magical and physical damage - ah, but flying units can't Shove.  Tough.  Instead, the winner is... Calill?!  Well, assuming her Con permits her to Shove Farmel.  Calill has 7 build, meaning she can shove up to 9 Build...  for point of comparison, Nephenee has 8 build, so I think calling Farmel 9 build is fair.  After that, yes, it's Knife use hype time.  Arguably Soren and Ilyana qualify too, but uh no to their Con being high enough to successfully Shove here, and I don't think Soren's knife breaks Defense anyway. (My Soren had 0 Strength at lvl. 20/16 or so, at least.)

The Magic Emperor's got this one in the bag - Tornado breaks Darkness Stance quite nicely (as it randomly tosses the party into the air and into new positions), and even if you see it as earning a counter, Ghaleon just Chaos Shields beforehand.  He's got physicals and magic for the rest.

As noted above, Millenia's Howlnado disposes of Darkness Stance, and she's got other physicals and magic to back it up.  If you see Howlnado as garnering a counter, then open with Spellbinding Eye to (arguably) turn the counters off before Howlnado.  Alfina uses Holy Circle, and then runs near Farmel a lot?  I mean, she's using the move command, not an attack, so it shouldn't generate a counter...  but the actual movement amount and damage is laughable.  If you see it as breaking the Darkness Stance, she wins, but the damage is bad here and she'll run out of SP first if the Darkness Stance doesn't come down.

Final Fantasy characters are in for a tough time.  Selphie beats herself up, then wins with The End, but I think she's the only one who's got a clear win.  Ramza's Dash breaks Hamedo in-game, so arguably he Tackles Farmel out of the Center Hex, then Rune Sword / Ultimas his way to victory.  Zidane uses What's That?! to break Darkness Stance, but doesn't have magical backup.  Celes has a very weak argument if you see Vanish as a way of evading the counters - Vanish self, Vanish Farmel (evade counter), Ice3 does damage and isn't nulled thanks to Vanish (evade counter), repeat.  Exdeath has Reverse Polarity in one of his forms, which switches rows?  Maybe that'll work here?

Disgaea characters can pick Farmel up and toss her... but all their special moves count as physicals, right?  I think they're done.

The Secret of Mana Sprite has an extremely bad argument in that PC Confusion causes you to walk in opposite directions, so maybe will cause Farmel to wander out of Darkness Stance herself?  Yeah, not likely, especially with boss immunities.  There'd be a better argument based off of SoM characters being able to push enemies/villagers around.

Margulis's XS1 form can knock Ziggy into the back row if you didn't stick MOMO behind him, so arguably that counts, except I don't think it has magic damage.  His XS2 form has the magic damage but loses the movement ability, unless you count Down.  So he's out.

Also, there's another (extremely arguable) way around the stances: A sufficiently powerful dispel move.  It's hard to say how well this'll work, as it doesn't in WA4...  but then again, all status effects to be dispelled in WA4 are hex effects, and this isn't a hex effect.  If normal dispels work, then a ton of fighters suddenly beat Farmel (DQ8 bosses, Xorn, Shion, Magus, etc.).  If we require an unusually strong one...  well, FF3DS Scholar has both physical and magical damage, and his Scan effect can dispel Hein's Barrier Shift, which is a similar "fundamental weakness is set to the following" move.  Might be a few others.

So who else beats Farmel?

Shale

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 07:05:52 AM »
The row-switching trick isn't unique to Exdeath; there are a few FF bosses who could use it to beat Farmel, although the fact that it's 2AM is making me blank on exactly who.

Depending on the mechanics of Time Stop, Feena could cast it to null the counters and then use Criticals to force Farmel back. She's hurting for MP after that, though...
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 07:26:15 AM »
Quote
The Magic Emperor's got this one in the bag - Tornado breaks Darkness Stance quite nicely (as it randomly tosses the party into the air and into new positions), and even if you see it as earning a counter, Ghaleon just Chaos Shields beforehand.

Very sadly for the Magic Emperor, Tornado's repositing is not random, but moves characters to, unless my memory is totally failing me, THE CENTRE OF THE SCREEN. Oops. (Granted, this is useful in-game, as it bunches everyone up for Worm Crush.)

Besides that, it should be noted that Farmel has Replace (and super-speed) to get back to the centre hex. This at the very least counters Yulie. Arguably she can just walk back there too (countering damn near everyone else), though I'm not sure I've seen her move?

I can't see why Dispels would work. WA4 Dispel doesn't! And you brought up Hamedo already. Counters aren't usually dispellable. Scholar has a slightly better argument if it does indeed dispel the element shift (I really didn't think it did...) except that quite apart from items being DL-illegal to most, there's the fact that Scholar doesn't have super-speed or doubleacts, so Farmel just resets Darkness Stance again.

Disgaea-wise, Maderas and Etna hit both defences (Sexy Beam for the latter). They're set, even if only one of them is ranked. Kurtis too (Nuclear Fusion), though you have to vote on his normally-useless PC form!

For FE9, Bastian and Tormod also work, I think? Bastian definitely. Tormod might have Con too low as well.

For FF6, Vanish does not get rid of immunities, just negates evasion (and resistance to Death effects, but this is both a glitch and very specific). She's got an argument, though, if you view Darkness Stance's "Immune" message as meaning DODGE EVERYTHING. IIRC Finest Arts did indeed have the physical argument, so she's in good shape for the Vanish stuff.

Margulis does indeed have magic damage; in fact, the move you mentioned that pushes PCs to the back row is one such!

Heh, Belial's translation seems perfectly logical to me. It's exactly what happens in-game if you don't monkey with the turn order or use Intrude. Lambda's is a bit weird I'll agree, simply because his own gimmick is so weird in-game. (They could really have thought of a better gimmick for him I feel, but whatever.)


Lastly: I think most people when considering Farmel throw at Darkness Stance in the DL, leaving her with the physical shield and magical shield. I know that's what I do. I've assumed your interp for the sake of this topic, though.

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 08:33:52 AM »
I realize almost nobody on this list is actually ranked. I do not care.

Ryu5 has kick. Kick knocks an enemy back and prevents them from countering you. Considering the piddling damage it does, that is its entire purpose in the game. He kicks her away, she switches stances. D-Dive, one tap of D-Breath to break one stance, D-Charge ten times, kill her so dead when you break the other.

Anyone from Fallout, Fallout 2, or Fallout: Tactics. You drop a chunk of plastique right next to her and step away. The explosion can knock someone a good... thirty to sixty feet backwards (five to ten hexes) or until they hit something. You don't even have to succeed at a Traps skill check, because even if it goes off in your hands, your mission is still accomplished. Also, a shot from a sledgehammer, or a high-skill unarmed combat character will do the same, but they both have at least a 5% chance to miss. This is literally foolproof, as there's no result for the bomb being a dud.
You then pull out your YK42B Pulse Rifle and let her have it right in the eyes three times in one turn.

I know that Albel can knock enemies backwards with Double Slash. I use it all the time to avoid counters and set up for Vampiric Flash. Cliff's LS attack (the one where he throws the Leaves-You-Impossibly-Open straight kick?) does so as well, if I remember correctly. I don't really play as anyone else to a major degree, though.

Eh... there's a bunch of WoW bosses that come to mind, I guess?

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 09:06:08 AM »
Ramza.*%

Scream spam until stats are 99/99 since she can't attack him, Dash and hope it moves her (50% chance or something? I don't know, I just remember it being annoying in that regard), kill with Physical/Ultima from there. Arguably, Tackle's meant for ignoring reaction abilities...

...which is another way to consider Mirror Stance anyway? Mmm. I dunno! But he has a shot, at least?


*Oh I'm sure FFT fiends can find 100 different ways to object to this. But it occurred to me, and he does have the ability to meet all the requirements... alternately Throw Stone out of range of counters?!?!? >_> So he just waits until that hits her back, then closes in for the kill or something, I dunno. It's funny, though.

%Wait, shit, SnowFire did mention Ramza. Whoops. Consider this clarification?


Also, yeah, Ghaleon's Tornado drops the opponent right in the center. So.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 09:08:50 AM by Taishyr »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 09:24:42 AM »
Tio, I think. Howlnado moves Farmel, and is also magic damage, so she has magic and physicals.
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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 05:36:01 PM »
I'm just going to add that I have never seen Farmel move. Ever. She does however beat Yulie due to Replace though. Darkness Stance is only stance that gives her super speed.

A couple of XF classes have abilities that move the target. Grappler for example can use Transport and move Farmel off the centre. Ragnar's Ravaging Rush pushes the target back as long as there is room behind the target and no change in elevation. The problem is, he will be right beside Farmel after it, so she can still hit him with Darkness Stance before dispelling the counter.

Depending on how Farmel's Finest Arts was classed, P3's final might also be able to win through Moonless Gown. But this requires seeing Finest Arts as a non-type attack. I think its just fixed 9999 damage though.

SO3 Fayt may have argument from Air raid since it pushes the target back and knocks down. He also has magic (which is usually laughable). Maria can push her back with Triple Kick but doesn't have any offensive magical attacks to finish the job.

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Mad Fnorder

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 06:40:57 PM »
P3 Main might have a shot, actually, with (of all things) Jack Brothers. Spam it until Down hits, she can't counter because she's knocked down, spends her turn getting up, bang. Certainly has both physical and magical to slug it out from there.

Talaysen

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 07:00:15 PM »
alternately Throw Stone out of range of counters?!?!? >_> So he just waits until that hits her back, then closes in for the kill or something, I dunno. It's funny, though.

Counter is long range.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 07:03:09 PM »
Dash wouldn't work either, for similar reasons. Doesn't do much good to move Farmel when the attached damage buys you a 9999 counter.

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Talaysen

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 07:49:04 PM »
Dash wouldn't work either, for similar reasons. Doesn't do much good to move Farmel when the attached damage buys you a 9999 counter.

The argument is that Dash doesn't trigger Hamedo, which apparently Darkness Stance is similar to?  I think the argument's kinda stupid, but still.

Shale

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 07:55:48 PM »
Dash beats Hamedo because Hamedo explicitly only triggers against basic physicals. It only beats standard counters if it knocks the enemy out of range for one, and the Darkness Stance counter is long-range.
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Tonfa

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2008, 08:04:24 PM »
Disgaea-wise, Maderas and Etna hit both defences (Sexy Beam for the latter). They're set, even if only one of them is ranked. Kurtis too (Nuclear Fusion), though you have to vote on his normally-useless PC form!

Maderas and Kurtis can't throw or otherwise move people. >_> Add Rozalin from Dis2 as far as Disgaea series goes, though. Also arguably pretty much everyone ever in Phantom Brave beats her.
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SnowFire

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2008, 12:16:26 AM »
Hmm.  Tormod has 6 Build, less shrimpish than I assumed, but he's still borderline.  If Farmel has 8 build (exactly equal to Nephenne), then Tormod takes it, but I'd see her as a bit tougher than Neph myself.  Unless Tormod bulks up in FE10?  As for Bastian...  yeah, I just assumed he used staves and never used him personally.  Looks like he's also up to the job thanks to foolishly picking knives.  Ah, prepromos.

As for Ramza, yeah, this entirely depends on whether Dash >> Hamedo hype means anything.  A "split the difference" approach would say that if the Dash succeeds in knocking her back, she can't counter because she lost the stance, but if it fails Ramza burns.  Which would give Ramza around a 50/50 shot; he really wishes Move-MP Up and MP Switch were legal in that setup to let him retry.

It's been too long since I played it, but the Jedi characters in Knights of the Old Republic have a shot if Force Push/Whirlwind/Wave works like in the movies.  I forget just how much knockback there was on it, or if it merely sent enemies to the floor, but the damage was laughable and it was clearly meant more as an enemy control mechanism (and I never bothered investing in the higher levels because, um, just kill them).  If it actually knocks Farmel back, then various Dark Side Force Zappy things break Barrier Stance from there with lightsabres for Fortress.

As for FF3 Scholar: Actually, beats me.  I got the "dispels Barrier Shift" thing from a FAQ, which did say it dispelled positive buffs in general.  I never bothered using a Scholar myself.

Also, I think that the XS3 final has...  a weak argument.  If the XS3 final has enough stamina, attack Farmel, eat a counter, then start counting down to blowing up the universe.  Problem is that the final is fought with ultimate skills like Blood Dancer and abilities, meaning that it's probably 2 PCHP or so at best?  And 2x PCHP is Finest Arts at its worst, assuming you're at say level 40 and are plowing all your skill points into more HP.  Meaning the XS3 final just gets OHKOed instead, most likely.  And I don't normally allow bosses to attack themselves (unless they do in-game like Liz & Ard).

Speaking of boss interpretations, generally Farmel winning isn't too notable, but she's one of the few bosses who on in-game AI beats FF5 Gogo (who slaughters most bosses, and even in the DL, beats bosses who only have offensive moves to pick from and can't waste time buffing themselves or healing).  Yay for successfully doing nothing?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 12:23:28 AM »
Tormod buffs up some in FE10, but he and all the other Sages lose the ability to equip knives, rendering it moot.

I'm guessing the FAQ-writer got confused by the fact that Scholar lets you see Hein's weakness (and lets you defeat the barrier that way, as you can now use the right spell or weapon to hit his weakness with). It also dispels positive statuses (to give it a use beyond just Scanning things), the way Dispel usually does. But I am nearly certain it does not affect Hein's elemental affinities directly.

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Rozalia

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 12:26:13 AM »
Does stat bust spells (e.g slow down) trigger a counter? If not then anyone who uses Poison without any damage tagged on to it can beat her (I'm guessing she isn't immune to poision like most WA4 bosses). Evil Gaia for example.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 12:27:46 AM by Rozalia »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2008, 12:30:11 AM »
She is immune to Poison. Evil Gaia's poison additionally has (pathetic by his standards) damage tagged onto it, anyway. <_<

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Rozalia

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 12:41:11 AM »
She is immune to Poison. Evil Gaia's poison additionally has (pathetic by his standards) damage tagged onto it, anyway. <_<

I don't remember Evil Gaia's Poison move doing damage, I thought all it did was cast poison on you and nothing more. However if she is immune to poison then it doesn't matter anyway.

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 12:57:53 AM »
It does 1 damage, so you can't really be blamed for forgetting. <_<

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Talaysen

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 01:43:10 AM »
The whole "does negligable damage and is obviously meant to move things" argument is dumb.  Things that do crap damage to Farmel WILL be countered, so it doesn't matter how much damage they do.

And moving Farmel out of the hex does not stop her stance.  You can do this by having someone Isolate Farmel and someone else attack her before she acts.  There's no reason to assume that an attack that pushes her out of the hex does not get countered.

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 02:08:43 AM »
Things that do crap damage to Farmel WILL be countered, so it doesn't matter how much damage they do.

If this is refering to me then its not what I meant at all. If Farmel doesn't counter stat busts then she wouldn't counter damageless spells (I don't think spells like replace are countered either at that). Its all pointless now that I know that she is immune to poison but if she wasn't and was hit with such a poison spell, or maybe something like bleed I think its called in FF12 then she'd lose as it slowly kills her.
 

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 02:17:26 AM »
Things that do crap damage to Farmel WILL be countered, so it doesn't matter how much damage they do.

If this is refering to me then its not what I meant at all. If Farmel doesn't counter stat busts then she wouldn't counter damageless spells (I don't think spells like replace are countered either at that). Its all pointless now that I know that she is immune to poison but if she wasn't and was hit with such a poison spell, or maybe something like bleed I think its called in FF12 then she'd lose as it slowly kills her.

It wasn't.  It was more directed to Snowfire.

As far as I know, stat busts don't get countered.  Would be something needing testing, probably.  Replace and Isolate aren't countered though, that's for sure.

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 02:49:37 AM »
Stat downs don't generate counters for sure.  I slowed her down on general principles, and Arnaud lived.  Not that stat-downs really help here....  except for Millenia's Spellbinding Eye, if the below hype is true.  (It doesn't do any damage initially and works on bosses, so yeah.)

And moving Farmel out of the hex does not stop her stance.

Ack, this I'd want to confirm.  I seem to vaguely recall this not being the case, that she just loses any stance at all and can be hit until she takes another turn?  Alas, my WA4 copy is on loan.  But yeah, the theory behind Howlnado type effects not generating a counter is that the movement happens "first," then the damage.  If she needs to have another turn before Darkness Stance stops, then that helps her out against some of these matches....  though not as many as I'd have thought?  Ryu5 apparently, probably the KOTOR Jedi mentioned above (Force Push does damage), Margulis 1 if he can't survive the counter (I think he probably can, though?), Tio, and Star Ocean 3 characters.  Millenia still makes it if you see the Eye as stopping counters.

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 03:33:57 AM »
I believe Tal is right about Darkness Stance persisting until her next turn, but not 100%.

XS1 Margulis isn't especially durable. Definitely not even close to the 3PCHP he'd need. (or whatever it is)

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Re: Farmel vs. the DL
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 06:28:53 AM »
And moving Farmel out of the hex does not stop her stance.  You can do this by having someone Isolate Farmel and someone else attack her before she acts.  There's no reason to assume that an attack that pushes her out of the hex does not get countered.

That reminds me, does her Finest Arts counter hits only adjacent panels? If it only hits adjacent panels, pushing her out with damage can still get away unharmed.