Movies

[metroid composite]

Also, I don't even remember who Scuttle is and I watched that movie way too many times as a kid, so I'm not really sold on him being more important than Ariel/Ursula. <.< Overall seconding Grefter (although: Mulan hype here) but yeah.

Oh, Ursula/Ariel are the two most plot-important characters by FAR.  Just...there's a lot of characters around them who won't shut up and therefore get more lines whenever they have a shared scene.  Granted, any one supporting character may get fewer total lines because they don't have a lot of scenes (like Scuttle the seagull).  It's mostly a comment on "nearly every scene in the movie has a male character who does a lot more talking than Ariel."

dunno, Little Mermaid struck me as fairly anti-female by necessity due to... well, the whole premise being a shallow love affair to start with.

Anti-female and lacking in female voices...don't imply each other in the slightest.  You can have lots of female characters and be anti-female.  You can have few female characters and be pro-female.

And...honestly?  I'm fine with having some ditzy female characters.  I mean, it's not like the "stupid male henchemen" stereotype hasn't been beaten to death.  Honestly, feminist-approved characters are nice and all that...but just because a character isn't an amazing-role-model physicist doesn't mean you shouldn't make her female.

[Grefter]

Umm...what I meant was that "Inglorious Basterds is an awesome movie that comes close to having no females."  Inglorious Basterds does not, in fact, have all male characters--there's jewgirl, who could be argued to be the main character, and British spygirl who has one scene but it sets up the whole endgame.

Ahhh alright then,  Von Hammersmark is German double agent, not Brittish spy girl and she has a good 3 solid scenes, the bar where she gets shot and two interrogations one with Brad Pitt jamming his finger into her wound and the one with Colonel Landa which leads to her strangling.  Shoshanna of course has far more scenes than that and while not as great as the other Actress is very good and far more central to the plot than Von Hammersmark is.  At the end of the day everyone in that theater was dead with or without the bombs because of Shoshanna and Marcel, but I don't need to lecture you on this when I am agreeing with you, it is just a film that I have watched and analysed a bit overly much, but so long as it is clear that we agree the movie is awesome.

And...honestly?  I'm fine with having some ditzy female characters.  I mean, it's not like the "stupid male henchemen" stereotype hasn't been beaten to death.  Honestly, feminist-approved characters are nice and all that...but just because a character isn't an amazing-role-model physicist doesn't mean you shouldn't make her female.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that I am thoroughly sick of ditzy big breasted females in movies and they should all be replaced by Andrew (with big breasts).

Edit - I think that you miss one of the issues though mc in that you can be amazingly anti-female with a cast of lots of females by having no female voice at all.  They may not imply each other, but when you do one poorly it really speaks a lot for the other.  A movie with a strong female voice and a small female cast tends to be a really damn well made movie (potentially none if you have a fucking amazing movie).  It isn't necessarilly causal relationship and what you can say about one doesn't mean a lot for the other, but they do have a very strong relationship.

[Cmdr_King]

The breasts do make the cabana boy.

[DomaDragoon]

Regarding TLM being anti-female... well, yeah, it kind of is. Let's face it, when the first non-intro song is pretty much "Our dad is so great, look at us being pretty and singing", you know what you're getting into. Ariel comes across a lot better in the TV series (especially since there's no Eric to basically derail her focus).

And you know, I was going to counter Gref's Disney misogyny claim, but I really only came up with three or four decently interesting female characters with presence in prior TLM features. (For the record, my list: Malificent, Cruella Deville, Madam Mim (notice a trend?), maybe Miss Bianca. If I was including mixed live action/animated, Mary Poppins and possibly Jessica Rabbit).

[metroid composite]

Edit - I think that you miss one of the issues though mc in that you can be amazingly anti-female with a cast of lots of females by having no female voice at all.  They may not imply each other, but when you do one poorly it really speaks a lot for the other.  A movie with a strong female voice and a small female cast tends to be a really damn well made movie (potentially none if you have a fucking amazing movie).  It isn't necessarilly causal relationship and what you can say about one doesn't mean a lot for the other, but they do have a very strong relationship.

I'm pretty sure I said exactly that in my post.  *checks* yes, yes I did:

"Anti-female and lacking in female voices...don't imply each other in the slightest.  You can have lots of female characters and be anti-female.  You can have few female characters and be pro-female." ~me

I think you missed what I was saying, which is that I'm happy to go for quantity over quality.  We've all seen a dozen movies where there's one token, strong female character who is a Ninja, and a Computer Hacker, and a Medical Doctor.  Those movies where there's 10 males, and 1 super-competent female.  I'd be perfectly happy to keep the same plot and swap the genders here--10 females and 1 super-competent male.  I'm fairly sure people would call this misogynistic, and I'm also fairly sure I don't care and would enjoy the movie quite a bit.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that I am thoroughly sick of ditzy big breasted females in movies and they should all be replaced by Andrew (with big breasts).

You can have idiot female characters without them having big breasts--Twilight proves this.

[BaconForTheSoul]

Gonna second Mulan here.  She is like the only competent character in the entire movie.  Every male character basically fails.  (Been a while so forgive me if I leave someone/something out.)
Dragon- I think they specify that he is a failure of a dragon
Other soliders- All textbook comic relief dumbshit dunces
Training dude- I believe he was competent... to the point that he could train Mulan, but he didn't do shit to stop the bad guys.
Bad guy- He seems competent because he manages to take over the city with like 8 people or something, but he also loses his entire fucking army to Mulan.  So despite his moments of glory, he still fails for letting thousands of men get owned by an avalanche.

[Grefter]

You said that they don't imply each other and state how the counter can happen, but that very thing can imply a relationship between the two, it just happens to speak strongly about the quality of a movie more than anything particular about feminism.


Regarding Mulan, a female character sacrifices herself to protect the central male figure in her life through deceit and cunning all the while being helped by the male guardian spirit of her ancestors.  In the process of protecting her father to make time she pines for the first strong male figure to enter her life.  She then gets discovered as a female and banished from the army as a deviant and told never to come back in spite of proving to be quite capable.  Apparently there is then a discussion about how doing this was to prove that she could finally do something right (because she never could have before by being female, she had to be a MAN to do something right).  Then the Huns attack and everyone proceeds to ignore her warnings because hey she is just a girl.  The Huns sneak in to the palace and hold everyone hostage, so again the female is off to save the day through deceipt and general trickery.  She saves the day and then turns down any offers of power or positions of respect to go back home to her strong male figure (Father) and gets followed home by First strong male figure she came accross and they presumably live happilly ever after.  Now I quote Wikipedia on this with what seems to be a direct quote Shang, having been advised by the Emperor that 'you don't meet a girl like that every dynasty,'  reminding us that being a competant female is truely exceptional.

Yeah I am not exactly holding this up as an amazing banner of progressive entertainment.  Also of note, this was a good 9 years after Little Mermaid came out and I was specifically noting that up to that point Disney certainly wasn't winning anyone over in the Feminism department.  So go Disney you went a long way in a decade, good work.  Even worse is that is the best example you have and that was twelve years ago.  What have we had since?  Line after line of PRINCESS DREAM PINK FAIRY HEARTS HEARTS HEARTS merchandise.  Nice to know they are keeping it on the bleeding edge 40 years on since the Second Wave happened.  30 years after it started we got the story of how once there was this really rad chick in China, now she is part of that Disney Princess line so we can watch her dress up and prepare for tea parties.  You know.  Just like in the movie.

Edit - This isn't to say it is a bad movie, it is just another movie that is focussed on females in relation to the males that define their story, this is not exactly rare in entertainment in general.  Just saying it is no Vagina Monolgues or something.

[Idun]

I love what Grefter has said. Also part of the issue with defining main female characters through their relationships with males probably stems from Disney's focus on princess or princess-like stories. I rarely see vice versa in Disney movies. A great movie that shows the characterization of a female unusual to animation films for me is Coraline. Good stuff. Watch it.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Met the dude who made Coraline a while back. Got a ton of directorial freedom because he was playing with his own money.

[Idun]

7 Pounds - 5/5.

Will Smith is consistently doing amazing movies. Apparently the movie was not well received in box office standings, but I don't really give a shit about that. This is an extremely vivid and corporeal sentimental movie that is methodically engaging. It amazes me because it's not one of those fantastical movies with random shoot-em ups, or time loops or any other odd unquantifiable thing. The experience was so real. The character relationships (besides his brother) were pertinent to the overarching theme of repentance, and the inconsistent use of time for storytelling made the execution of the storyline a bit more intriguing. I don't like being spoon fed in my movies, and despite the possibility of its predictability (Uh, who could deduce the ending from the first 40 minutes even?), even knowing the outcome helps establish a deeper connection between the characters. A very, very good movie. It's on a different level that the Pursuit of Happyness, where essentially the outcome results in success and 7 Pounds is more of an internal remorse/bliss combination for all the characters involved. I did not particularly like the scenes with his brother, but I believe his brother's role was primarily one to add one more dimension of depth that Will Smith's character derives inspiration from and the measures he would take to execute it. That is all.

[metroid composite]

Regarding Mulan, a female character sacrifices herself to protect the central male figure in her life through deceit and cunning all the while being helped by the male guardian spirit of her ancestors.  In the process of protecting her father to make time she pines for the first strong male figure to enter her life.  She then gets discovered as a female and banished from the army as a deviant and told never to come back in spite of proving to be quite capable.  Apparently there is then a discussion about how doing this was to prove that she could finally do something right (because she never could have before by being female, she had to be a MAN to do something right).  Then the Huns attack and everyone proceeds to ignore her warnings because hey she is just a girl.  The Huns sneak in to the palace and hold everyone hostage, so again the female is off to save the day through deceipt and general trickery.  She saves the day and then turns down any offers of power or positions of respect to go back home to her strong male figure (Father) and gets followed home by First strong male figure she came accross and they presumably live happilly ever after.  Now I quote Wikipedia on this with what seems to be a direct quote Shang, having been advised by the Emperor that 'you don't meet a girl like that every dynasty,'  reminding us that being a competant female is truely exceptional.

Yeah I am not exactly holding this up as an amazing banner of progressive entertainment.

See, I see that film a bit differently.

The military draft comes for an old cripple who can barely walk, demonstrating the stupidity of a male-only draft.  Mulan, who is quite obviously the better candidate, sees the stupidity in this rule and goes in his place.

The male guardian of their ancestors that they send is completely useless--can't tell the difference between a horse and a cow, gets her caught cheating during training when she had done no such thing, advises her to punch a guy in the back of the head and then slap him on the behind and then yells insults to him causing her to make enemies and get in a fight the moment she walks onto the camp, and later lights a firecracker alerting the enemy to their position.  Basically he's more of a hinderance.  I wouldn't read too much into the fact that at first she's fooled into following his advice--even in 19th century England, men and women didn't talk too much, and if they did they were expected to get married (one of the culturally weirder parts of Jane Austen books to me).

Despite the adversity, Mulan is soon the head of the class.  They move out (because the male guardian forges orders) and she makes the smart tactical decision to cause an avalance.  All this causes the commanding officer to say "Ping, you have earned my trust."

Side note: I wouldn't say she pines over the first male figure in her life--she denies liking him, and she never has a moment where she says "oh my god he's hot" even when she's alone.  Arguably her actions betray her somewhat, but not to the point that any of the other soldiers notice (they don't even call her a suck-up).

So...anyway, they discover her gender, and go "OH MY GOD HE'S A TRANNY!  By law all trannies must be put to death!!!" and the commander responds "No, a life for a life, I'm not going to kill someone who saved me.  But I'm no longer sure I can trust you."

Then we come to perhaps the most interesting conversation in the movie.  "Maybe I didn't do it for my father.  Maybe I did it for myself, because I never fit in as a woman.  Maybe I hoped I'd fit in as a man, but I was wrong." *cries* (Or to translate: maybe Mulan really IS a tranny).  The male guardian tries to cheer Mulan up by showing her the female reflection and saying "look, you're pretty," at which point Mulan turns away (oh my god he IS a tranny!)  So...then Mulan sees six huns pop out of the snow (compared to the millions that arrived) sees them walking towards the city of a million people and thinks "Oh I will need to personally fight them off!  I can postpone going back to my hated female life!  Hell yes!"

So anyway...the remaining soldiers arrive in the capital, all looking horribly downtrodden and guilty for losing Mulan.  On hearing Mulan's voice, the captain immediately responds with a hopeful "Mulan?" (Note that he has only heard this name exactly once).  Before changing his tone to "Oh fuck, dude, you shouldn't be here I was supposed to kill you.  Get lost."  So Mulan's like "I saw huns in the mountain, trust me."  And he's like "Why should I trust you?  You deceived me the entire time I knew you."

Mulan goes up to some total strangers in the crowd and says things like (direct quote from the movie) "Please sir, you have to help me," in a large city...and gets predictable "don't touch me" results.  The incompetent male guardian chalks this up to sexism and laments the unequal treatment of women.

So...Mulan is proven right, and somehow in a crowded square, six huns take the emperor hostage.  The Captain and his crew try to break down the door, Mulan sees the strategy they're using, and decides that it's going to take too much time.  She determines that the best way to speed things up is to use more trannies!  So she gets three of the men to crossdress (including applying full makeup) as part of her "faster" solution.  Naturally this fits these "men" psychologically to a T, and one of the soldiers asks "does this dress make me look fat?"  Also, they all seem to know how to walk...and kick in a full length dress.

Natrually the trannies singlehandedly take out all the guards, but then they send in the only non-tranny in their group, and he gets knocked out.  So Mulan stays behind to make sure he doesn't die and to make sure the hun can't follow the group with the emperor.  Before proceeding to kill the hun using inferior weaponry, Mulan makes sure the hun knows that they've met before, and knows that Mulan is really a boy inside.

So anyway, once the hun is dead, the emperor makes this speech "I've heard a great deal about you Faa Mulan.  You stole your father's clothing.  Ran away from home.  Started living full-time as a man.  Became so successful in your new life that not even your commanding officer suspected.  Oh, and I guess you also blew up my palace, broke the anti-tranny laws, and saved everyone in China.  Whatever, you're a totally awesome tranny, and I'm going to bow to you now."

The Emperor offers Mulan a position in the council, but makes the mistake of calling Mulan a woman.  Mulan politely declines making up some excuse about seeing family.  So he insists Mulan at least take a medal, to get some level of family respect instead of the original hated life.  Mulan hugs the emperor, the other soldiers hug Mulan, then the captain...holds back from hugging and says "uhh umm uhh...you're a good fighter?"  Mulan's like "dude wtf?" and walks off.

So the emperor goes up to the Captain and makes the comment "the flower that blooms in adversity is the rarest of them all."  And the captain's like "Sir?"  And the emperor's like "Dude, that's like a slave from Georgia becoming a Shakespeare-level playwright.  Hey, did you know we normally kill trannies in Ancient China?  Funny story..."

So Mulan goes back to the old female life, goes up to her father and says "look, I know I'm a tranny and stuff, but hey, I got the sword of the kingdom and the medal of the emperor. Please don't reject me for being a tranny."  And her father's like "the greatest gift and honour, is having you for a daughter."  (At this point, Mulan's probably thinking "thank god he didn't disown me, because if this movie were at all realistic, that was highly probable.")

So...the lovesick captain follows Mulan home, but on seeing Mulan, loses all coherency again and says "you forgot your helmet.  Wait, I guess it's your...hemlet...oh my god trannies make me so confused!"  Mulan takes charge (the first actual move she's made on him) and says "do you want to stay for dinner?"  Might as well keep reminders of the old male life nearby.


The moral of this story is that trannies save kingdoms.  The more trannies the better.  Also, parents shouldn't reject their kids for being a tranny, and you shouldn't mistrust someone for being a tranny.

[Grefter]

Of course Trannies solve all your problems, but you are still showing the heart of the story as "It is awesome to be a dude, you get to puch guys and not be scared of anything".

[Anthony Edward Stark]

The moral of the story is that any time you dress up as the opposite gender, you are going to be better than everyone of that gender. Any dude is one bad wig, two bags of sand and a soccer game away from winning woman of the year.

[metroid composite]

"It is awesome to be a dude, you get to puch guys and not be scared of anything".

That sounds like something a transman would say!

[Grefter]

Exactly!  Even if you don't take it negatively it is still an incredibly masculine movie.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

That's because being a dude IS awesome. Making a movie about how being a dude is awesome is like making a movie about how hot sauce is awesome. Your audience just sits there and says "yeah, and?"

[Meeplelard]

How to Train a Dragon: Being a fan of dragons and Mandy basically begging me to take her see it, I really didn't have an excuse, did I?  Anyway, movie was entertaining at least, though I went in expecting a more Humor based movie rather than one of those "Cute, makes you feel good" movies; obviously knew it was intended for more general audiences of course, being a family movie does that!  This isn't to say the movie didn't have its funny moments, but felt more like it was trying to get you to smile rather than laugh your ass off, if that makes sense; the trailers of the movie I saw seemed to imply the complete opposite go figure!  Anyway, not bad for what it is, albeit, its predictable as all like all these movies.

Clash of the Titans: By this, I mean I saw the ORIGINAL from...whenever that movie was made, the one from decades ago!  I had seen this movie a few times when I was younger and didn't really grasp it beyond "oooh, monsters!", saw it again once years later when I actually knew stuff about mythology, but only caught the second half.  Finally seeing it again...its still enjoyable stuff.  I must say, the special effects in that movie are bad ass considering they're Stop Motion effect for the most part.  I say 'For the most part", cause I know there are some close up shows that scream "Lifesize model made here" and sometimes, there was obvious real actors in make up.  These are by no means a bad thing mind, regarding using some other techniques alongside stop motion; you have to use what looks good, and always using blue screened miniatures supersized doesn't work for some shots, so you go with what looks best and generally movie did that, so yeah, that's all well and cool.

Why didn't I just see the remake?  Well, mostly cause Mandy wanted to see the remake and I told her she never saw the original and probably should, and my parents agreed, and yeah, got her to watch that instead (it also cost less.)  She enjoyed it, though she also immediately asked at the end "Why is it called Clash of the Titans when there are no titans!?"

But yeah, wasn't sure how I'd like the movie seeing as an adult now, nor how it'd stand the test of time.  Considering everything these days is COMPUTER ANIMATED!!! (for all that I totally understand why, and don't think that's necessarily a bad thing), the fact that the movie still looks pretty damn good on its special effects is pretty telling.

[NotMiki]

There is no better argument for special effects the old way than the first minute or so of Bladerunner.  The flying car coming in to land in the smog-filled city, and it backfires and spewing out a ton of real smoke is the kind of atmospheric (no pun intended) setup you can only get by using real props.

[metroid composite]

That's because being a dude IS awesome.

Frankly, I don't see the appeal.

I mean really, why would I want to punch someone?  I'd rather be able to look at a baby without the mother shielding the baby from view.  I'd rather be able to wear interesting clothing without bearing the judgment of society.  I'd rather have other women willing to engage me in conversation at a bus stop.  I'd rather be allowed to touch someone for emotional emphasis without people freaking out about boundaries.  If I have a klutzy moment where, for example, I trip while crossing the street, I'd rather have people think "oh, she looks like she could use some help" rather than "LOL, n00b pwned himself; commence mockery; do not assist."

I mean...I'm a programmer.  Other than opening jars and carrying groceries, I'm not sure when I would even use physical strength if I had it.  And realistically, male or female if you want to punch people, you should probably take up Boxing.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

You have a very strange view of what being a guy is like, but that doesn't surprise me at all.

[metroid composite]

Hmm...actually, that brings up a fascinating question--just how little DO I know about being male?

I honestly doubt I can answer that question myself.  Umm...Grefter: let's suppose you were a college professor teaching a course on knowing what it's like to be male.  What grade would you give me?

[Luther Lansfeld]

I am terrible at being male and I like it that way. Being a female freaking rules.

[Excal]

Erm...  Just to chime in, can't recall the last time I wanted to punch anyone, at least seriously.  And I don't think mothers ever hide their babies from me.  The rest, can't say since they never really occur to me as things to want or not want.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Hmm...actually, that brings up a fascinating question--just how little DO I know about being male?

I honestly doubt I can answer that question myself.  Umm...Grefter: let's suppose you were a college professor teaching a course on knowing what it's like to be male.  What grade would you give me?

Well, just off the top of my head, I don't think I've ever been in an elevator with someone with a baby, turned and said, "Hey, is that your kid?" you know, as polite conversation, and had them freak out. Usually the response is "yes," unless it is not their kid, in which case the answer is no.

As far as touching another person goes? It's not about what you do, it's WHERE you do it. You don't touch a dude on the leg, just like you don't slap a woman on the tit.

[Hunter Sopko]

Hmm...actually, that brings up a fascinating question--just how little DO I know about being male?

I honestly doubt I can answer that question myself.  Umm...Grefter: let's suppose you were a college professor teaching a course on knowing what it's like to be male.  What grade would you give me?

To be fair, you know ABOUT being a male, you just don't like it/understand the appeal.