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Author Topic: Movies  (Read 299510 times)

NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #375 on: May 28, 2009, 12:43:21 AM »
Nah, there is no reason for an adult to read a children's book, even if it is award winning.

nonsense.  good books are good, period.
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superaielman

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Re: Movies
« Reply #376 on: May 28, 2009, 02:17:31 PM »
It's your own fault for not reading the book in the first place.

Still, that was an awful marketing campaign.

Seconded on all fronts. It was an excellent book.
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Re: Movies
« Reply #377 on: May 31, 2009, 05:20:01 AM »
I just saw one of the cutest, cheesiest, girliest chick flicks ever that played by the chick flick rulebook. 9/10. Made of Honor. Corny win!

AndrewRogue

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Re: Movies
« Reply #378 on: May 31, 2009, 05:53:33 AM »
Up: What the fuck Disney/Pixar.

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Re: Movies
« Reply #379 on: May 31, 2009, 06:13:54 AM »
Up: What the fuck Disney/Pixar.

Agreed, but I really think it was a great movie.

Still. Recall the Bridge to Terabithia comment previously. You'll get a similar shock from Up.
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metroid composite

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Re: Movies
« Reply #380 on: May 31, 2009, 04:32:55 PM »
Nah, there is no reason for an adult to read a children's book, even if it is award winning.
I read pretty much exclusively children's books, and online stories where the protagonist is a teenager, and Jane Austen books where the protagonist is...a teenager.

Then again, I'm not sure you consider me an adult >_>

Shale

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Re: Movies
« Reply #381 on: May 31, 2009, 06:57:40 PM »
I'm not sure you consider you an adult.

Anyway, video games are super-mature, right?
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NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #382 on: May 31, 2009, 07:02:03 PM »
Anyway, video games are super-mature, right?

Of course!  You can tell by the ratings.
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Grefter

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Re: Movies
« Reply #383 on: May 31, 2009, 10:32:31 PM »
When you run out of age appropriate good books you can start pimping out children's books.

Also I have ever been one to say we shouldn't be raising the bar on video games?
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NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #384 on: May 31, 2009, 11:28:51 PM »
When you run out of age appropriate good books you can start pimping out children's books.

I never thought I'd see the day when you would lecture me to do only what is appropriate, Gref.

Rather than defend my position, let me borrow the words of an author of children's books who did not believe in writing down to children.

Quote
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth… The extraordinary, the marvelous thing about Genesis is not how unscientific it is, but how amazingly accurate it is. How could the ancient Israelites have known the exact order of an evolution that wasn’t to be formulated for thousands of years? Here is a truth that cuts across barriers of time and space.

But almost all of the best children’s books do this, not only an Alice in Wonderland, a Wind in the Willow, a Princess and the Goblin. Even the most straightforward tales say far more than they seem to mean on the surface. Little Women, The Secret Garden, Huckleberry Finn --- how much more there is in them than we realize at a first reading. They partake of the universal language, and this is why we turn to them again and again when we are children, and still again when we have grown up.

-Madeline L'Engle,

Newbery Award Acceptance Speech: The Expanding Universe, August, 1963

http://www.madeleinelengle.com/reference/newberyspeech.htm
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Cotigo

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Re: Movies
« Reply #385 on: May 31, 2009, 11:46:24 PM »
Huck Finn?  A children's book?  Pff... Pfft.... Pffttahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Anyway, yeah, what the hell, Gref?  Advocating regulating one's reading by something as arbitrary as "target audience age"?  That's dumb.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 11:48:19 PM by Draco Malfoy »

NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #386 on: June 01, 2009, 12:26:40 AM »
Huck Finn?  A children's book?  Pff... Pfft.... Pffttahahahahahahahahahahaha.

This is something that happens a lot with disrespected media.

Y is a really good X.

Critics: "Xes aren't good, and Y is good, therefore Y isn't really an X."

Fans of fantasy are probably familiar with this by now.
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Excal

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Re: Movies
« Reply #387 on: June 01, 2009, 12:30:17 AM »
I think it's more that it's not a childrens book because it was meant to be there to tackle large social issues in the context of Huck Finn's journey.  Granted, I read the thing when I was a kid, but I'm not inclined to use that as proof of anything since I read Moby Dick and the Bible as a kid as well.

Cotigo

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Re: Movies
« Reply #388 on: June 01, 2009, 02:36:53 AM »
Huck Finn?  A children's book?  Pff... Pfft.... Pffttahahahahahahahahahahaha.

This is something that happens a lot with disrespected media.

Y is a really good X.

Critics: "Xes aren't good, and Y is good, therefore Y isn't really an X."

Fans of fantasy are probably familiar with this by now.

Except that's not what I'm going on about at all.  There are some good children's books, I recognize this.  The subject matter that Twain tackles with Huck Finn (Slavery, Race, and the effects of both on Southern society; Southern family feuds; con artists; religious conventions/"providence;" etc.), and more specifically the ironic way in which each subject is dealt with*, make it a book that is in no way a children's book. 

*For instance, there is an exchange shortly after Huck and Jim meet the Duke and King, where Jim and Huck argue about languages.  Jim takes the fundamentally wrong position (since a Frenchman and an Englishman are both men, their "talk" should be the same), but shows a superior use of logic in his argument than Huck does.  Afterwards, Huck says "You just can't learn a n****r anything."  Given that Huck is technically right, a reading that ignores the irony in the scene will lead a reader to the same conclusion.  Recognizing the dissonance between what Huck says and what actually happened, however, leads you to a reading/message that is more in line with what Twain was trying to get across.  Children are typically oblivious to irony, so a typical child reading Huck Finn would not understand what Twain is trying to accomplish with that scene (or many others in the book).  Ergo, not a children's book.

Sure, there are some children who will read the book and comprehend it.  Typically, however, one needs become more acclimated to sarcasm to do so.

EDIT:  Look ma, I'm usin' my degree for sumpin!  Arguin' on them-thar internets.  Special.

EDIT 2: In the spirit of my Avatar/Name, I AM AN ENGLISH MAJOR YOU ARE WRONG SHUT THE FUCK UP AND HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 03:23:13 AM by Draco Malfoy »

NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #389 on: June 01, 2009, 04:05:26 AM »
ok, ok, I take it back.  you're right.  books that are good can't be children's books, because kids r dum.

I'd peg Huck Finn as high school standard fare, so call it young adult if you really need to, but the point is young people read it, and they tend to be seen as the target audience.  my general point still stands.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 04:07:28 AM by NotMiki »
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Cotigo

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Re: Movies
« Reply #390 on: June 01, 2009, 04:42:18 AM »
Not my fucking point.  I'm not saying that "books that are good can't be children's books," or that children's books can't be good books.  I'm saying that Huck Finn, SPECIFICALLY, is not a children's book because its target audience, regardless of whom it "tends to be seen as", is not children.  Simple as that.  I'd elaborate again but I don't think I'd be saying anything that I haven't already said.

NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #391 on: June 01, 2009, 05:23:44 AM »
hm, do you define target audience as who was intended to read it when it came out, or who it is marketed toward now, or use some other standard?
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Cotigo

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Re: Movies
« Reply #392 on: June 01, 2009, 07:04:56 AM »
A good question, and I'm not entirely sure myself.  Who reads it most is probably the best criteria, but is flawed, at least in this case.  Most people probably read Huck Finn somewhere around 15-18, but it's also often assigned reading.  This metric only really works when it's voluntary reading, otherwise you're selecting the "appropriate" age by what has been pre-established by a third party, which is a measurement I don't agree with in the slightest; simply because everyone SAYS that's the age that one should read the book doesn't mean it is.

Who the author intended the target audience to be is tricky, too; Twain very well could have been writing to a child/young adult audience as a sort of teaching novel, but this is only really valid in the contemporary setting if so, and there's a good argument against it (though don't quote me on that, the details are kind of fuzzy on this front.)  Then of course there's the intentional fallacy and all that goes along with that, which is complicated in how much you buy into it, but that's a different subject for a different time.

Who it is marketed towards now has sort of already been dealt with:  just because it is being marketed at an audience doesn't mean that it's the appropriate audience. 

The best answer I can give is still no good:  What audience is best able to understand the text.  I don't really think that Twain's writing is all that accessible to a juvenile audience; I recall reading it at 16 and thinking it was crap, and re-reading it at 21 and finding a lot more value in it, for instance.  Of course, there will be people who can understand the text at 15 or 16, which complicates the matter, but in all honesty those people are few and far between.  Still, I wouldn't trust the typical teenager to have easy access to the book, and there is the fact that most often when they pick up the book they only do so because they have to, not because they want to.

I'll have to think more on this to really give a coherent answer, though.

Grefter

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Re: Movies
« Reply #393 on: June 01, 2009, 08:29:01 AM »
To continue the tongue in cheek joke.

A good question, and I'm not entirely sure myself.  Who reads it most is probably the best criteria, but is flawed, at least in this case.  Most people probably read Huck Finn somewhere around 15-18, but it's also often assigned reading.  This metric only really works when it's voluntary reading, otherwise you're selecting the "appropriate" age by what has been pre-established by a third party, which is a measurement I don't agree with in the slightest; simply because everyone SAYS that's the age that one should read the book doesn't mean it is.

Who the author intended the target audience to be is tricky, too; Twain very well could have been writing to a child/young adult audience as a sort of teaching novel, but this is only really valid in the contemporary setting if so, and there's a good argument against it (though don't quote me on that, the details are kind of fuzzy on this front.)  Then of course there's the intentional fallacy and all that goes along with that, which is complicated in how much you buy into it, but that's a different subject for a different time.

Who it is marketed towards now has sort of already been dealt with:  just because it is being marketed at an audience doesn't mean that it's the appropriate audience. 

The best answer I can give is still no good:  What audience is best able to understand the text.  I don't really think that Twain's writing is all that accessible to a juvenile audience; I recall reading it at 16 and thinking it was crap, and re-reading it at 21 and finding a lot more value in it, for instance.  Of course, there will be people who can understand the text at 15 or 16, which complicates the matter, but in all honesty those people are few and far between.  Still, I wouldn't trust the typical teenager to have easy access to the book, and there is the fact that most often when they pick up the book they only do so because they have to, not because they want to.

I'll have to think more on this to really give a coherent answer, though.

And this is why you should be reading books for adults, because you are smart enough for them.

But seriously, reading a children's book is fine.  You can enjoy it, they can be fun.  It is like reading pulp fantasy can be fun.  It is just when you are looking at the overall "Here is something awesome that you should totally read before you die/should have heard of and read the book of before seeing the movie", children's books in a forum of intelligent people (honestly generally University graduates at this point) is kind of setting the level of discourse a touch low.  It is going, here improve yourself!  Check this shit out.

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Cotigo

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Re: Movies
« Reply #394 on: June 01, 2009, 09:31:35 AM »
I figured it was more of a "Hey well everyone else in my demographic is reading it I may as well check it out, at least then there's something to talk about" sort of thing, but then again I also took your statement as pure sargasm at first, so who knows.

Grefter

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Re: Movies
« Reply #395 on: June 01, 2009, 10:23:54 AM »
I do.  You should have gone with your first idea.

When I have ever started being serious after a joke with the line "But seriously"?
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NotMiki

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Re: Movies
« Reply #396 on: June 01, 2009, 12:36:11 PM »
* NotMiki shrugs, settles down with his copy of The Little Prince.
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Re: Movies
« Reply #397 on: June 01, 2009, 01:16:03 PM »
I disagree with the idea that Children's Books can't be discussed at a college level. That was just my kneejerk reaction to Grefter's comment.

Upon further inspection, I realize that Grefter means that college students are not reading children's books to enrich themselves or to expose themselves to new ideas. Yes, good point.

But -creating- a book for Children, and generally, the younger the target age the more this is true... is really difficult stuff. Trying to distill the main ideas and cut out unnecessary details and keep meaning intact and accessible to younger readers....  Well, -I- have trouble with it and it's been a subject of discussion many times among my co-workers (elementary school teachers).

Since we're treading really close to such a topic, I wanted to ask for some opinions about the creation and direction of children's books from the DL. Yeah, whatever Movies topic. Tangents are good.

-Djinn

Cotigo

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Re: Movies
« Reply #398 on: June 01, 2009, 06:09:31 PM »
Quote
When I have ever started being serious after a joke with the line "But seriously"?

When the Austrailians went to war with the Philippines, because they were concerned about their eucalyptus crops being taken over by Asia?
Since we're treading really close to such a topic, I wanted to ask for some opinions about the creation and direction of children's books from the DL. Yeah, whatever Movies topic. Tangents are good.

-Djinn

I have absolutely no idea what you're babbling about.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Movies
« Reply #399 on: June 02, 2009, 12:48:00 AM »
I have absolutely no idea what you're babbling about.

short version: I think writing children's books is hard. What do you think?