Author Topic: General Mafia discussion topic  (Read 22492 times)

Ranmilia

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2008, 12:13:40 AM »
Agreed with everything Rat said.  Especially the part about OMGUS, that applies to a lot of the metagame here.  The DL does it too much.  Don't be high and mighty, you make mistakes as a townie and other townies jumping on them and lynching you is just them playing well.  The solution is not to discourage them from lynching you, but to stop making mistakes - because every mistake you make is one scum can benefit from (and not always in the way you'd expect, which is the whole point of why you shouldn't necessarily lash back at people attacking you.)

Case in point, Touhou.  We scum actually had a list in scumchat saying "Don't attack these people, they will OMGUS you" and exploited it heavily.  Part of the reason why I attacked Hal was that I was expecting to die (and welcoming it, thanks to my power) and wanted to stir up Hal vs Tonfa again.  Residue from that contributed strongly to our win on the last day.  I also made a much longer run than I should have in Phoenix Wright by playing on it.

Do go after mistakes and lynch poor play.  Adopting an attitude of "Well that rant/whatever looked genuine" is an open invitation for scum to fake stuff, and they can fake it well.  The earlygame is a better time to get it out of the way than the lategame.

I disagree with Rat about prejudice on your scumbuddies.  Earlygame prejudice and staying away from people later revealed to be scum has been the bane of many a would-be scum winner in lategame. 

Look at what people *don't* say as well as what they do.  In Touhou, I let Gate, El Cid and Rat (especially El Cid) off the hook for scummy behavior multiple times.  Of course, this can be hard to read, but if you can pick up on it it's one of the best tells. 

Watch for role tells as well.  Cop is the easiest to find.  I pegged QR as cop in Touhou from the instant Tom flipped as a liar, because of how hard yet logically she pushed him and her argument with Andrew.  Her vehemence about how the cop shouldn't counterclaim was, ironically, tantamount to a counterclaim itself - if you were looking for it.   

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2008, 12:27:01 AM »
First time I had a real role to play (other than SK or scum), so I learned a lot.  Not my shining moment, no.  Reading back over, it was a lot more obvious than I'd like what I was trying not to say.
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2008, 12:32:06 AM »
I have to disagree with lynching poor play out of hand.  Killing someone over day 1-2 mistakes just annoys them and discourages them from playing more and learning good play, and on the whole bad play has batted 0/Infinity for actually catching scum.  Now, certainly, in later days if no leads present themselves, lynching bad play on the real (though thusfar unseen) possibility that it's intentional bad play or signs of inexperience playing scum is a better idea, but in the first days before anything can happen not so much.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2008, 12:32:49 AM »
It caught Super in NR Mafia!
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2008, 12:34:02 AM »
So you did!  It's still a really bad ratio though.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2008, 12:36:01 AM »
Nah, I didn't catch him. I was murdered because he knew I would kick his ass for it. <_<

MY COP ABILITY SAYS THAT MEEPLE IS A SCUM REVIVER? THEN HE -MUST- BE TOWN!
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EvilTom

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2008, 12:42:01 AM »
I'll have to agree with King on this. Mainly because I'm getting sick of being mislynched on day 1 in 50% of games I play >.>

Though, if I survive day/night 1, I make it to endgame and win!

(Based on prior statistics)
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2008, 12:58:20 AM »
Again, refer to the obituary you got for yourself in Discworld.  You occasionally have good ideas, and I saw how lethal you were in PW Mafia.  Just...  you look attrocious, and don't listen to reason. 

Carthrat

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2008, 01:03:36 AM »
If I'm presented with the option of someone who looks bad and someone who doesn't look as bad, I'm always going to want to go for the first one, 'bad play' or not. I don't really see what the other rational options are (except for them to, y'know, not play so bad.)

I just know that the game I excuse this is the game that guy is scum, and it's that game where I'll be mislynched for not pressuring him for playing badly on day 1. So. Yeah. DON'T PLAY BADLY.
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2008, 01:08:22 AM »
LAL, Rat.  LAL.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2008, 01:10:05 AM »
Wellll in that case they should *technically* be the ones with.. bad.. play? Yeah I should remember that. MY THEORY STILL STANDS.
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Ranmilia

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2008, 01:22:56 AM »
Don't bring ingame stuff out of game, and don't do the reverse either.  "But if we kill them they'll get mad and not play anymore" is nearly the worst argument I've heard in Mafia.  This just encourages poor play.  You will make mistakes, you will get mislynched, sometimes you'll get mislynched for other people's mistakes.  You win some, you lose some.  Learn and laugh afterwards. 

Early lynching for bad play worked in Newbie 1 (Super), NR (Super again), Phoenix Wright (Everyone, thanks to scum intentionally playing poorly and bussing people), Random (Otter)...  It does not always catch scum, no, but it is always to town's benefit in the lack of a better case.   

Cmdr_King

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2008, 01:37:20 AM »
Oh, that's not the argument, really.  It's just a likely side effect.

Put it another way.

The people that actively advocate lynching bad play, in games I've seen, have been "THEY MADE ONE MISTAKE!  KILL KILL MURDER MAIM KILL!!!!", which is stupid and counter-productive.  Additionally, overreaction and OMGUS DO look suspicious, but everyone gets so into "kill the bad player, they are clearly scum hiding" that they ignore all else and let it blow into a huge argument of death.
Or, more simply.  Don't play badly.  Watch and learn.  But if someone IS playing badly, don't make that your entire focus and don't ignore other evidence and cases, and above all don't spend an excessive amount of time calling them on it.  You're only making it worse.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Ranmilia

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2008, 02:42:04 AM »
Yeah, that's true.  I'm being harsh somewhat because it did happen, albeit the other way around - there was some sentiment in scumchat that we shouldn't kill QR, because she was upset about always dying early.  Our kills wound up always being dominated by roleclaims, and town took her out for us, so it didn't matter, but... yeah.


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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2008, 02:46:18 AM »
I think there's a difference between getting upset over always being lynched and getting upset over always being NKed. They both deny you the fun of playing the game, but the former is much more in the player's control than the latter (unless the player starts tanking, which goes against the spirit of the game).


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Carthrat

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2008, 02:48:52 AM »
Getting NK'd as vanilla is a mark of RESPECT.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2008, 02:57:27 AM »
I definitely think getting lynched early is more frustrating due to just what it indicates.
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2008, 02:58:28 AM »
Respect is fun like that. At least I've managed to buy psuedo-NK immunity with my gameplay, although I did what I wanted to do in Touhou so I don't have any regrets~
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2008, 01:13:30 PM »
I very much like the idea of an out of game ad visor for new players. I remember fishing for advice in chat back in the PW days because I was agonizing over a play to make. Sounds pimp.

I think that a really weird metagame has risen up around the DL. I wonder if the actual statistics match up with people's perceptions- as in, people's win/loss records vs. how much they're feared.

Carthrat

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2008, 01:47:06 PM »
You can't *really* analyze win/loss records in comparision to skill until a large number of games have been played, and we just don't have the stats needed to figure this out. Also, when someone is OVERWHELMINGLY SCUM it's very hard to judge how good they are at town (and vice versa.)

I don't actually think you even need to be terribly skilled to be a decent adviser. Common sense can go a long way in a game of mafia and maybe it just takes some reminding? >_>
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EvilTom

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2008, 01:51:07 PM »
I've never been scum, it sucks T_T

Maybe I should change my name to Carthrat :D
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Carthrat

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2008, 02:07:50 PM »
I can safely say that being scum kept me awake at night way more than being town did. >_>
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2008, 03:37:15 PM »
How cute.

And Tom, I have played 15-20 games on IRC and a -lot- of games here at the boards and I have never ever been scum. It's kind of ridiculous. <_<

Obviously the Powers That Be (Hatbot) think I am non-scummy!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 03:39:12 PM by Ciato »
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2008, 03:57:05 PM »
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder about that. Hell, part of the reason I killed you in Touhou was "she's gotta be scum sometime, right?"
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Re: General Mafia discussion topic
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2008, 05:18:28 PM »
I haven't played as many games, but in addition to only ever being town, I've also only ever had the same role in every game (Watcher). 

Honestly, I think we're starting to get type-cast now! 

Just like Summer Glau.

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