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Author Topic: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage  (Read 14390 times)

superaielman

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Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« on: July 15, 2008, 01:52:52 AM »
RULES
Choose TWO games/Forgotten Warriors. You must choose two, and can not choose more than two. This is to provide some balance- some people will yes most ideas, some will no most ideas. Picking out the best helps window down what to rank.

RULES REGARDING (single) FORGOTTEN WARRIORS: They do not take up a slot, if they're from a ranked game. They still need to beat out the third place game for nominations to get to the next stage.


Don't:

Suggest a game for ranking for humor/trolling/for the hell of it. Please put some effort into your suggestions and pick the best games for the DL overall. Save the comic failure for NR.


What makes a good rankable game?

* games that are well-played within our group, and hence will get good vote numbers
* games which are well-played outside of our group, and hence will attract newbies
* games with well-developped or memorable characters
* games with interesting duellers battle-wise

Here's a more detailed FAQ about the ranking process and how we rank:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9204

And now on to the suggestions that have been made through the voting page. You don't have to stick to this list, but most people do read through it to refresh their memory of unranked games. Also gives you an idea about fan demand.
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superaielman

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 01:54:11 AM »
Persona 3
Writers: 9/21
Suggestors: 12
Art: Easy to find
Sales: 100k? I have no idea.
Vote potential: Below average to average.
Not Ranked: Well below average.
Notes: I didn't expect P3 to be leading the way for suggestions this time. Persona 3 has excellent fan support, is well liked, and has good enough playership in the group. The downside? The writers are very weak, and the length of the game is certainly going to prevent people from playing it fast. It has some serious NR concerns as well. It's still one of the bigger RPG releases in the past year here, and FES can't hurt things, even if we won't be ranking off of it.

Fire Emblem 9
Writers: 11/21
Suggestors: 11
Art: Easy to find
Sales: Above 200k
Vote potential: Above average. Not sure.
Not Ranked: Below average
Notes: It's got the sales and the writers at least. Like most everything we're possibly ranking this time it's not especially strong overall, though this game does have the advantage of a recentish sequal and pretty excellent sales to back it up. (Though like with P3, it's sequal/remake isn't up for ranking)

Disgaea 2
Writers: 10/21
Suggestors: 7
Art: Easy to find
Sales: Above 100k
Vote potential: Average
Not ranked: Below average
Notes: It's the strongest of the major suggestions in terms of NR drawing and is pretty straightforward for what to rank. Definitely has some drawbacks- writers aren't strong and it's not especially  uber in any one catagory.
 

Mana Khemia
Writers: Under 5/21
Suggestors: 3
Art: Easy to find
Sales: Under 50k
Vote potential: Below average
Not Ranked: NA
Notes: Obviously not ready yet. It having more nods than WA5 is funny though.

List of ideas with less than 3 nods:

Wild Arms 5
Operation Darknes
Valkyria Chronicles
Xenosaga 3
Kartia
Phantom Brave
Kingdom Hearts
Kingdom Hearts 2
Tales of Innocence
Radiata Stories
Final Fantasy Tactics: Advanced
Enchanted Arms
Ateiler Iris 1
Lost Odyssey
The World Ends with You
Mother 1
Final Fantasy 12
Eternal Sonata
Super Mario RPG bosses
Fire Emblem 6
Final Fantasy Mystic Quest
Summon Night
Treasure of the Rudras
La Pucelle Tactics
Ar Tonelico
Megaman X Command Mission
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 02:52:42 AM by superaielman »
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superaielman

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 01:55:41 AM »
My picks:

Disgaea 2, Fire Emblem 9

P3 has some nice support and I like the demand there, but between the overall weakness (Sales/SMTness/NR/writers) I'm thinking waiting is the smarter option here. Dis2 and FE9 have been out long enough and are both solid overall.. enough to justify making the second round at least.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 02:01:23 AM »
Also tossing a vote the direction of Disgaea 2 and Fire Emblem 9.

Of the serious ideas, they lead in both writers and NR performance (P3 never got above the low 40's, WA5 is similar). They got a decent number of suggestions, and have had a certain amount of casual clamour for a couple years now. Being part of proven DL series doesn't hurt.

I'm actually surprised by P3, I didn't expect it would have any sort of chance this time, and instead it's a clear #3 choice. Cool. But I am still for waiting for next time on it, and letting those writer/NR numbers firm up.

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Lance

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 02:05:54 AM »
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Disgaea 2.

Shocking.

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 02:14:15 AM »
Varin and Persona 3.

Disgaea 2 has Taro in duels headaches. FE 9 is a better draw than WA 5 and Persona 3, but also has the general cluster of FE issues. The big strength of the previous FEs was the draw, which FE 9 doesn't have.

And throwing in Varin since I dont' think anyone else is going to vote for WA 5, and Varin is a solid Godlike from a ranked game that's already proven to have done decently.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 02:55:39 AM by Dhyerwolf »
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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 02:26:21 AM »
Persona 3 and Fire Emblem 9, I guess.

FES can only help it, since anyone not familiar with it can pick it up far more cheaply than anything else.

Meeplelard

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 02:40:08 AM »
FE9 and Disgaea 2

For reasons stated by others
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Excal

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 02:49:54 AM »
FE9 and Disgaia 2

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 02:50:33 AM »
My picks: Disgaea 2 and Persona 3. Both strike me as pretty much ready, even if neither is likely to blow us away with vote totals.

Going over some of what's been nominated so far:
FE9: Is Fire Emblem, for good or ill.
Mana Khemia: Own it, haven't played, but I don't see how it'll be ready in the near future unless it gets some hype in-group.
WA5: Seemed to draw a lot of hate for the plot and characters, so I think we may need to give it time to age like a fine cheese. Mmm... cheese.
Operation Darkness: X360 exclusive(?). Strike one, sadly. Played the demo and it didn't seem to have much character-specific abilities. Strike two. Critically panned. Strike three.
XS3: Anyone other than Telos or new forms for the current ranked?
KH: All for it, but the whole ARPG thing will likely keep it back for a while.
FFTA: You should all play this and nominate it next time. Do it.
FFMQ: I <3 whoever nommed this. You rock.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 02:53:20 AM »
What Doma said

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 03:09:11 AM »
Disgaea 2 and FE9
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Yakumo

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 03:16:34 AM »
I'd go with P3 and, uh, probably Disgaea 2.  Of the serious games, I don't really like FE in a duel and while I haven't played Disgaea 2, at least the first game had characters with personality and something resembling skillsets.  That said, I'd be perfectly fine with us not ranking anything this time around, really.

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 03:20:21 AM »
Sticking with my nominations; Fire Emblem 9 and Mystic Quest (even though it most likely won't make it).

Oh, and, I'm thinking we should rerank Kletian (or Cletienne, whatever floats your boat). He get's a bit more background in Lion Wars, even if it's only one battle. Just an idea.

EDIT: Heh, ok, so maybe it ain't such a good idea, but I'm hyping for it anyways. =P
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 03:33:51 AM by ThePiggyman »
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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 03:24:37 AM »
Disgaea 2: Cursed Memories

Of available games, the only one I'm confident I'll continue supporting.  INternal is kinda scrubby but it's still the best draw of the past couple NRs?  Yeah, that's pretty appealing, decent room to grow.  N1 cast hurts, but not enough.

Persona 2: Eternal Punishment

What?  I've been thinking about this and... the past few NRs it's really been perfectly competitive with WA5/FE9.  Well, no, little behind them (a bit less than 5% against comperable stuff) but y'know?  The cast is much better here.  Anyway, more concretely, the game's pulling a little less than 5% behind DDS and drew 50+% against it, which is bad by not a total disaster, the same FE9's been doing.  *shrug*  So there ya go, a different response for a change!
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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 03:49:24 AM »
FE9 and P3. I know that they've both got some sizable support on the outside and enough support on the inside. Granted, FE issues, but we've dealt with them enough that I think it won't be anymore of a problem. P3 has the bonus of a decently interesting cast, even though the main character seems kinda Bluelike, depending on what you allow.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2008, 04:34:22 AM »
CK:

P3 and FE9 are not close on drawing, so please don't try to pretend they are.

-P3 drew the same against Disgaea 2 that FE9 drew against WA5 in the same week, and WA5's failure compared to Dis2's competency is well-documented.
-P3 against midcarder Lufia 2 is 40%, FE9 against midcarders BoF2-3 is 47-49%.
-P3 has literally never drawn above 43%. FE9 at least gets into the 50's in good times.
-P3 has never faced DDS and certainly never drawn 50% against it, or anything.

EDIT: I am a moron, but I am leaving this post here so everyone knows it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 04:45:35 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Cmdr_King

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2008, 04:38:41 AM »
Not P3.  P2.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2008, 04:45:15 AM »
*blinks* Holy crap! I saw Persona and I just assumed... my bad.

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SnowFire

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 05:40:59 AM »
Fire Emblem 9, and a bunch of Forgotten Warriors.  I realize that the voting format isn't conducive to ranking a bunch of single characters from random different games, but I nevertheless think it's a good idea.  If there's only one or two characters ranked from a game, there's no risk of it becoming tiresome, and a low number of writers can be worked around better.

One comment/caveat on FE9: I'm not sure if we want to call it a FE9/10 dual rank, but characters should be ranked assuming their best form, because some people will vote on the FE10 form.  In other words, if Elincia is ranked, I know her FE10 form is much better, and she should be ranked as a Heavy or whatever, not a Light.  Allegedly Tibran is a Godlike in FE10, so if he's ranked (which, based on FE9 alone, I'd be against), I'd be in favor of ranking him off of that as well, etc.

Miniature Forgotten Warrior ranks I'd be in favor of:
Xenosaga III: Yes, obligatory, been over this.  Sew up any confusion about legal forms, re-rank Jin, and rank one or two characters.  Allen might be best saved for NR but is a fun joke light, and Voyager / T-elos are options among the bosses.

FF3DS: Yes, form split issues ahoy, but FF3 White Mage did okay in NR if I recall correctly.  Cloud of Darkness I'd be slightly queasy about... it's a high Godlike from an obscure game, which can cause weird things, and Bad Breath is a move that doesn't translate to the DL at all like how it works in game.  (In game, it's a 100% guaranteed to be useless move, because they show you the Cloud has it in a play fight, then explicitly hand you 4 Ribbons.)  It's also pretty plotless.  I guess...  Xande?  He is the big villain through most of the game, even if his boss fight is pretty easy (though still translates better to the DL than he really is in game).

Final Fantasy XII: Larsa translates quite well to the DL and actually has character.  I'm solidly in favor of ranking him.  Reddas is also rankable, though he's minorly headachey depending on how much you hold the fact that he can't self-buff vs. characters who can against him.  Difference between his HP being "below average" and "horrible" there.  Vossler...  always wants his boss form, and FF12 bosses all translate way too well to the DL due to "rounds" flying by in-game.  An interesting Godlike dueler, but he's certainly not a Godlike fight in game, so a bad rank.  Reks...  no.  It only had one match in NR as best I can tell, and that was against Rivieria (??), so not much of a sample set to work with, but the sales were huge.  So at least playership would probably be decent for the game, though I'm told the internal playership is awful.  But again... it's only 1-2 ranks.

I'll cast my actual second vote for whichever one of these three ideas has the most support from others.  Edit: Which is currently none of them.  I'll say FF12 for now as the one vote crying in the wilderness, just because it's the one that's most likely to be a solid votedraw.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 05:50:04 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2008, 05:44:04 AM »
Counting note for my sanity: Snowfire, could you specify (at some point before this topic closes; you've got a week) which one of your miscellaneous FWs you are supporting? No rush, but for various reasons conditional votes can make for headaches.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2008, 06:10:40 AM »
Eh, FE9 characters with FE10 forms (Read: Just about all of them) will likely be ranked solely on their FE9 form.  Ranking them as "Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance" should avoid confusion instead of "Fire Emblems."

See for example how much respect Lazlo gets as a Godlike based on his Suiko Tactics form.

You are right that some duellers (Elincia's one of the bigger ones, no doubt) get significantly better in FE10, but believe general agreement was they'd be ranked solely on their first form, and if FE10 does get ranked, then potential re-rankings for those characters.

Granted, some people will probably still rank based on later forms, cause of personal interps and such, but eh, that's the case with any game that has multiple forms.

Also, regarding the FE9 Tibarn ranking? Given he has a forced guest form in 2 chapters, one of which is the second to last chapter in the game (read: No scaling issues), and has plenty of plot, and he's a popular enough character, there's really little argument against him.  Granted, this isn't the stage to discuss who to rank, but thought I'd add in a friendly reminder.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2008, 06:14:59 AM »
This isn't really the topic to discuss what will be ranked from a game. Not that I object to a little, but please try not to derail it too much.

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superaielman

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2008, 02:16:53 PM »
General responses to Snowfire:

XS3's NR performance has been nothing short of abysmal. There's a good reason (Besides it being XS3, which techically shouldn't count here) that it hasn't gotten much in the way of ranking talk. 40% against Pokemon is generally cutting it. FF3 has excellent playership, good writers, and good duellers. The bosses however have no art, the PC's aren't rankable in the DL format. You can go two ways with ranking the PC cast- Rank them class by class (Knight, Ninja, etcal) or rank Luneth/Arc/etc and specify which classes they get. It's a shame but I really don't think the game can be used here.

FF12 I would have to get some substantal NR proof to support. The general dislike here combined with the low playership and lack of really rankable characters makes it a poor idea as it is.

I honestly thought it'd come up before, but FF12's not had much fan demand here either. Reminds me some of X-2.

My own FW leanings.. mm. I wouldn't mind taking a swing at WA:XF once PSP ownership goes up in the group, as it should have excellent playership within our group and fanbase. WA always has been well played here. Ash from PB would be cool, but I've seen next to nothing to support the idea that PB can even support a FW. Doesn't help that the game is just barely rankable as is- you can put in Ash and maybe Walnut? Marona and Sulphur are both so very unrankable.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2008, 03:28:48 PM »
Elaborating on FF3, PC-wise it is a strictly worse rank than FF5, which you will note is not ranked. Luneth et al., unlike Bartz et al., are only in one version of the game and don't have the notable flavour claims the FF5 PCs do to certain crystals as far as I can recall (or if they do, it's much more of a stretch). In terms of classes, which would make more sense, FF3 is FF5 with lower votedraw and with votesplit.

Boss-wise, yeah, the big problem is art. Plus some votesplit. The Ribbon concern doesn't bother me since, as you noted, you are likely going to see Bad Breath in the plot version, and then you have to specifically fight for Ribbons so that you can guard against it. You can call the move DL-inflated if you want, but no more than many other useless boss status moves. And at least most everyone I've talked to remembers the move, and it's not like it changes her division anyway. I'd probably support a Cloud of Darkness FW down the line if she gets some art via Dissidia, but that seems about the extent of it.

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