Season 44 rankings: Preliminary stage

[Bardiche]

FF:MQ (durrrr) and Disgaea 2.

If only because I haven't played FE9 and P3.

[Mad Fnorder]

P3 and my traditional banner-wave for Phantom Brave Ash as a FW.

[Ultradude]

I actually put in Ash in the voting box, but I totally forgot about FE9. Depending on how P3 and FE9 do this ranking session, I might push for Ash to get in next session. Naesala drew 43% against Elvis to his 32% though, so I can't really justify him over FE9. Akihiko also drew decently against Lilina and Adell.

The idea of ranking P2 as a whole also sounds like it might be a good idea in retrospect. I could be convinced to change over to it from P3, probably.

[superaielman]

Elaborating on FF3, PC-wise it is a strictly worse rank than FF5, which you will note is not ranked. Luneth et al., unlike Bartz et al., are only in one version of the game and don't have the notable flavour claims the FF5 PCs do to certain crystals as far as I can recall (or if they do, it's much more of a stretch). In terms of classes, which would make more sense, FF3 is FF5 with lower votedraw and with votesplit.

Boss-wise, yeah, the big problem is art. Plus some votesplit. The Ribbon concern doesn't bother me since, as you noted, you are likely going to see Bad Breath in the plot version, and then you have to specifically fight for Ribbons so that you can guard against it. You can call the move DL-inflated if you want, but no more than many other useless boss status moves. And at least most everyone I've talked to remembers the move, and it's not like it changes her division anyway. I'd probably support a Cloud of Darkness FW down the line if she gets some art via Dissidia, but that seems about the extent of it.

I wouldn't personally mind ranking FF5/3 via each class, but most of the DL would strongly oppose that. Ah well. And there's no fair way to rank by character. CoD I don't really care about one way or the other, though another high drawing Godlike would be nice to have.

Re P2: can't see much point in ranking what was a very niche PSX RPG at this point, that console's dead and the PS2 itself is near that point. Nate and Ellen have always been borderline themselves, and P2 when it had it's chances in the DL did shine at all.  It bombed beyond belief in the DL the first time around, and Maya hasn't exactly set the league on fire herself.  Besides for special cases (Just gotten a US release, art becomes available) There is no reason we should be ranking anything from the PSX era or earlier at this point.

P3 is a bit of a different story (Larger release, at a time when there aren't many other RPG's out).

[alanna82]

FE9 and Disgaea 2, the two I put in the suggestions.

I wouldnt mind ranking Persona 2 or Persona 3. Persona 2 oddly drew better in Not Ranked than it did when it was ranked. Maya hasnt had a match for a while, but If I remember correctly she didnt do too bad the last time she was in. I prefer the FE9 and D2 for ranking though.

[SnowFire]

superaielman: Just to be clear on FF3DS / FF12, yes, the PCs are pretty much unrankable and worse than FF5.  The only options are bosses for FF3 and guests for FF12 (Xande, Larsa, & Reddas?), hence the suggested FW mini-ranks, not a full ranking.

Meeplelard: Well, on the more general issue of what to rank, I'd say the duelers should be ranked under "Fire Emblem: Radiance" or something and make both forms legal off the bat to avoid any confusion.  Even if only duelers in FE9 are ranked at first, with more rankings from FE10 later.  That way, the situation where Elincia is in Middle and votes on her entirely be based off which form is being used are avoided for sure.  But yes, if the decision is to go FE9 form only, then they should definitely be listed as "Path of Radiance."

DHE: This issue isn't overly huge, but the fact that you are sure to get the Ribbons and are sure to know to use them makes it more offensive to me.  In most games, you won't normally have full status immunity on everyone for sure without sidequesting or knowing where at least somewhat hidden items are for most final bosses.  It'd be like....  if after Rubicant's play battle with Edge, they gave you full Fire-nulling equipment for your entire party (rather than simply some Fire-resistant stuff for Cecil & Kain), and Glare did 9999 damage if not nulled.  Alternate-Rubicant would be insanely scarier in the DL than in the hypothetical fight where his big move is nulled and you're outright encouraged to do so.  And I do hold to the view that a boss's strength in the DL should at least be somewhat proportionate to the difficulty of the fight.  I'm not saying "never rank Cloud," but I'm less enthusiastic about Cloud vs. a boss who translates better.

[VySaika]

FE9 and Dis2, then. I put P3 in the commentbox, but the numbers seem to say that P3 just isn't ready yet, so I'll nod a better draw instead. I suppose this means I'll actually need to sit down and play Dis2 now, though. Eventually.

[Meeplelard]

I'd probably support a Cloud of Darkness FW down the line if she gets some art via Dissidia, but that seems about the extent of it.

Actually, she does have some art. Granted, you could argue its...not very usable since its a crappy shot that's hard to really distinguish, so yeah, that probably doesn't count.

Just thought I'd toss it out there, though I doubt that it changes your mind in the subject.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm assuming she has better art coming.

Snowfire: You do have to go out of your way to get those Ribbons (fighting four optional minibosses), so they're not quite handed to you. If you didn't know Bad Breath existed you might not bother. <_< And as for bosses in the DL corresponding to in-game power, not only do I disagree and note many couterexamples (Khalamari > Rhapthorne, Carry Armour > Jenova-Death, etc.), I was under the impression that CoD tended to be considered a very nasty boss by most, so I don't really see any problem here anyway.

(The sarcastic part of me also notes that you've hyped many bosses I consider absolutely awful in-game, e.g. from VP2 and XS3, which further seems to throw sand on your claim that we should vote on bosses based on how good they are as fights. This is who would win in a fight, not how poor at RPGs any given voter was the day he or she fought a boss. As much as there are a few pet bosses I could hype as ridiculous Godlikes if we did the latter...)

[Cmdr_King]

Re P2: can't see much point in ranking what was a very niche PSX RPG at this point, that console's dead and the PS2 itself is near that point. Nate and Ellen have always been borderline themselves, and P2 when it had it's chances in the DL did shine at all.  It bombed beyond belief in the DL the first time around, and Maya hasn't exactly set the league on fire herself.  Besides for special cases (Just gotten a US release, art becomes available) There is no reason we should be ranking anything from the PSX era or earlier at this point.

Your point being... what, exactly?  That Nippon Ichi games aren't niche, that Atlus is somehow less niche now than in the PSX era?  Yes they have better sales, but that's because the niche itself has grown, not because these games have a wider appeal.  More importantly, the entire concept of the DL is niche.  It's a completely moot argument for rankings, because how mainstream or popular something is has no effect at all on how many writers or casual voters can vote on it (Kingdom Hearts as a long-running example.  This is a well-loved game, not something that sold and wasn't liked ala X-2, even.  Still barely draws.)
'Dead system' is similarly pointless.  It's not like the Gamecube is any more alive than the PS1, or the apparent death of the PS2 has prevented games from being released on it.  For that matter, there's SD3, a game which in terms of numbers doesn't exist, yet draws perfectly fine.   Emulation exists, people don't throw out their old consoles when they get new ones, and backwards compatibility is the rule, not the exception.

What you seem to want to argue is that new games are in some way inherently more attractive as ranks.  And sure, ranking new, hot games might get some buzz and draw a few voters in.  Except we don't rank things a week after they come out, 6 months is considered an unusually short waiting period.  What draws people in, if anything is going to, is simply being able to see their personal little favorites get in, and for that age and popularity mean nothing, it's all about what people want.  So in the end, hey, I'm probably the only one recommending the game, it's been gone so long no one really thinks about their favorites, or maybe the playership is worse than the numbers make it look.  And that's fine, but saying it shouldn't be in the discussion because it's not the 'new hotness' is just silly.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'll just put it bluntly. CK: the real point is that P2 still draws like complete crap and doesn't have any prospect of getting better or garnering new interest. Check the latest NR numbers. 37% against FF3 ain't raising a case anywhere. Why rerank a game that was booted for drawing poorly and just didn't improve at all? It's not even adding new blood to the DL, so it's entirely pointless and detrimental.

[Sierra]

CK: Countering the point about emulation, in this case at least, is the fact that P2 is notoriously difficult to emulate (as anyone who's tried can attest).

---

Anyway: FE9 (ugh) and D2. I hate to bog the DL down with more FE floods, but it's clearly the safest rank here. D2 is good enough (if not great). Will have to look forward to P3 and WA5 another ranking season. Le sigh.

[Dunefar]

D2 and PB Ash as a forgotten warrior.

[Luther Lansfeld]

As much as there are a few pet bosses I could hype as ridiculous Godlikes if we did the latter...

PEST RAT?

Personally I would vote the giant scorpion second boss of SO3 for Godlike.

[hinode]

FE9 and Disgaea 2.

Simply the only remotely reasonable ranking ideas to me at this point in time.  Persona 3 will probably be a better DL game than both combined in about 12 months... which is a reason to rank it later, when it can do better than 43% in NR.

Also firmly opposed in principle to voting/ranking on FE10 forms for FE9 PCs, that feels like nothing more than a way to backdoor in characters/games who aren't acceptable as ranks otherwise in.  If this somehow turns out to be more than a minority view I'd considering giving nos to PCs who jump divisions in the transition (Elincia, Tibarn, Naesala I think?), but as the Sinestrals aren't tearing up Godlike I'm not too worried.

[Orson]

Persona 3: I'm...iffy on ranking P3 now, but give it time.

Fire Emblem 9: Best numbers thus far. I do look forward to FE10's inevitable entry into NR.

Disgaea 2: As I noted in the rating topic, D2 is holding its own rather well. This is, easily, my Must-Rank this time.

Mana Khemia: As much as I'd love to see it in the DL (Pamela for champion!), it just...doesn't have anything to go on. No NR numbers, little voters, and few writers. Maybe in a few periods, but not yet.

Wild Arms 5: Next time, maybe.

Xenosaga 3: Give it a while.

Phantom Brave: Half of me is for ranking Ash as a FW, but I hold off for now. Maybe next ranking? (Side note: If we had three positions, like before, this would be #3 for me.)

Tales of Innocence: Non-US Tales game is LOL.

Radiata Stories: It's...got numbers. But if you ask me, it's a tacky rank.

Final Fantasy Tactics: Advanced: Possibly sometime before the next freeze, but I'm cold on it for this period.

Ateiler Iris 1: Mana Khemia seems like a more likely rank.

The World Ends with You: I'm looking forward to seeing how TWEWY does in NR.

Mother 1: It's...not out of the question to rank it, but it hardly...HARDLY...has a shot. I'd wait for an NR performance first, though.

Fire Emblem 6: Feels like a solid game for sometime before the freeze, but inasfar as this one is concerned, we'll stick to the 7 rankings for now.

Final Fantasy Mystic Quest: I wouldn't mind it ranked, just not yet.

La Pucelle Tactics: I'd love to see it ranked soon.

Overall, I'll equal the sentiment. D2 and FE9 should be ranked this season. Also, the possibility for FE9 to get better is good, thanks to Ike's appearance in SSBB.

(EDIT: Oops. Wrong Arms.)

[SnowFire]

DHE: This is where I'll say that perhaps my FF3DS knowledge is off.  Are you referring to the minibosses, or the Xande Clones inside the treasure chests?  You aren't told about the Xande Clones prior to opening the chest (and RPG force of habit means you open every treasure chest you see, plus the Xande Clones aren't difficult anyway even if you knew about them), and at least two of the treasure chests are practically on the path to the miniboss and one isn't that far off.  (I just beat FF3DS last week.)  Now, if you can fight the Cloud without fighting the four minibosses or visiting those realms at all, then that does change things slightly, but I assumed that you couldn't advance through the center teleporter until you took down the minibosses and the path wouldn't be complete or something.  But if you go into those realms and follow standard procedure of opening chests, you're getting 2-3 Ribbons minimum, and I at least already had a Ribbon lying around anyway.

As for the Cloud itself, oh yes, it's certainly a Godlike no matter what, it's the translation.  Cloud w/Bad Breath becomes an annoying PC-splattering godlike with a move that doesn't actually work in game...  pretty similar to Galcian, actually, who always annoys me as a dueler because he's a Puny fight in game that translates to at least a heavy thanks to boss HP plus an ID move that doesn't really work in game.

As for the other duelers bit...  I think that's simple difference of opinion on how hard those fights are.  I stand by trying to have bosses approximate their difficulty in game, but I found VP2 Odin & Lezard quite hard fights in game, and Ull not really scary.  Go figure.  (Yes, I probably should have abused Sealstones more.)

And yes, Giant Rat for NR Godlike.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The point is those differences of opinion exist, and if we start voting based on them, we just get a bunch of people with wildly variant opinions because boss challenge is so arbitrary. Not only do some people naturally think better in different types of fights, but you're further subjecting the boss' ranking to how good his AI is the day he fights the player, whether the player happens to be fighting him half-asleep, etc.

For Cloud of Darkness in particular, the badass damage kills a lot of things even if the status doesn't, and at least it's obvious the status is there. I can see the frustration I guess, but don't agree (lots of boss status is worthless), and disagree strongly it impacts her as a ranking idea. Maybe how much you personally like her in the DL, but that's not really of interest to me anyway.

[SnowFire]

You say that like it's a bad thing.  Boss respect does vary, and, well, so be it.  Don't think there's really any way around that, especially in games with a lot of customization and optional bonuses that can potentially be held against bosses.

Anyway I think this has run its course since we both actually support Cloud anyway at least in the long term; I'm just standing by the principle that weird translations of characters are bad, and the fact that an important move doesn't translate well is definitely something to hold against her.

[superaielman]

Your point being... what, exactly?  That Nippon Ichi games aren't niche, that Atlus is somehow less niche now than in the PSX era?  Yes they have better sales, but that's because the niche itself has grown, not because these games have a wider appeal.  More importantly, the entire concept of the DL is niche.  It's a completely moot argument for rankings, because how mainstream or popular something is has no effect at all on how many writers or casual voters can vote on it (Kingdom Hearts as a long-running example.  This is a well-loved game, not something that sold and wasn't liked ala X-2, even.  Still barely draws.)
'Dead system' is similarly pointless.  It's not like the Gamecube is any more alive than the PS1, or the apparent death of the PS2 has prevented games from being released on it.  For that matter, there's SD3, a game which in terms of numbers doesn't exist, yet draws perfectly fine.   Emulation exists, people don't throw out their old consoles when they get new ones, and backwards compatibility is the rule, not the exception.

What you seem to want to argue is that new games are in some way inherently more attractive as ranks.  And sure, ranking new, hot games might get some buzz and draw a few voters in.  Except we don't rank things a week after they come out, 6 months is considered an unusually short waiting period.  What draws people in, if anything is going to, is simply being able to see their personal little favorites get in, and for that age and popularity mean nothing, it's all about what people want.  So in the end, hey, I'm probably the only one recommending the game, it's been gone so long no one really thinks about their favorites, or maybe the playership is worse than the numbers make it look.  And that's fine, but saying it shouldn't be in the discussion because it's not the 'new hotness' is just silly.

My point's the same one I've been making for all these years. There is no reason for us at this point to be looking at games that are older than the current gen unless there is very, very specific reasons to do so.  KH would be ranked tomorrow if enough people thought it was RPG enough/fit the format well enough. IT's drawing is not what it should be but it's more than enough to qualify for ranking. We rank games based on a mix of drawing, availability, sales, and writers, along with a dash of other things that tend to make people play or stay away (Art? Is it cool in a duel? Is it a good game? etc). Sales very much matters, how easy it is to get a copy of a game definitely makes an impact. A game can be the coolest the world for ranking, and if no one can find a copy it won't make it in the league no matter what. More to the point, P2 is a bit beyond niche, it sold less than 30k copies in it's orginial print run. FF12'd probably be fine in the DL if the internal group picked it up fairly strongly. On the other hand, something like say AI3 would take a small miracle to get ranked, even with good playership. 


It's more than availability, though that matters. Unless you profoundly love or hate a game, you're not going to remember much of it say ten years after you play it. Look at FFMQ, how many people here have played it and forgotten so much about it that they had to replay it to vote on it? Most games are like that. Stat topics only do so much good there as well.  At this point we have over 70 games ranked and 1000 fighters.  That is a staggering amount of data to remember even with stat topics and most every game having at least one person who knows the mechanics of it backwards and forwards. We rank newish games becuase they're the most likely at this point to draw well and attract attention, along with being remembered.   If there was something deserving from 1993 to be ranked, we'd rank it. But as it is, we've pretty much hit every acceptable idea from the NES era to the early PS2 era at this point. The older the game is, the harder it is to find legally, the harder it is to remember, the harder it is to get new players for it. And if we ranked based on keeping 'personal little favorites' in, we'd still have Morte in and a bunch of other FW's in. They only do so much good if the games themselves can't draw and it further dillutes are already massive roster.


The PS2 and GC are pretty close to finished with new RPG's. GC.. we'll rank FE9 and that'll be it, but the PS2 still has several easily available games that could in time be solid ranks. Or maybe not, it's something we have to look at. But more to the point, it's not a completely dead console. It has a few new games, and it's easy to find most not completely obscure titles for it. In three or four years when the console's really dead, we should be done ranking for it. Emulation only does so much good. Some people have moral objections, some can't run it on their system, and some would rather play bright new shiny games.  If there isn't some kind of decent core there, it won't be rankable. SD3 was an older game when we ranked it, yes. It's also probably the most widely emulated SNES game around, has a huge internet following and had a long, proven history of being able to draw based on NR and playership numbers *and* has very memorable fighters on the gameplay front. (Duran heals and hits shit, Kevin smashes, Angela hits things with status, Hawk has stat downs and damage, Lise has a debuffing game, Carlie is an uber white mage, etc). It's problem wasn't any of the above, but a question of 'does it fit the format'- same as KH or FF3.  If we're going to rank niche titles, they need to be current gen. Going back nearly ten years to rank a game from a long dead console that did not draw at all, never has drawn, and never will drawn is insanity. The proof in the pudding there is it's recent NR showing; that is with P2's internal being much better than it was a few years ago.

To sum it up, P2's got nothing besides decent writer numbers. As shown by countless other ranking periods, ranking games based on it being favorites is a really bad idea, and the older games get, the less people remember and the less availability they have. Like any obscure older title it doesn't really merit mention as a DL game.  And unlike most of those it had a chance and blew it in the main league. Maya's still around, if by some miracle she does pull okay numbers, we can reference that and consider ranking it then. But as it is? No, all it deserves is to be brushed off.

Really short version: what Snow said.

[Luther Lansfeld]

It IS a bad thing, voting based off only what you saw. It lacks the internal consistency that is fundamental to a site about debate. If you deflect arguments with "Oh, I never saw that move, too bad" then where is the room for discourse?

[OblivionKnight]

Ranting time, I suppose.

So, I haven't read many of the arguments here so far, but I probably will later.  My personal opinion on what to rank come next stage will probably be abstain at best, but who knows.  Of the games that have a potential to be good, I'm torn, and not sure which ones I think would be better at the moment.

P3 has a lot of good qualities here - interesting, decent sized cast that spans every division.  Lots of interest, and the potential to draw people by ranking a new game (and, if we wait until next season...it's a year old, so that's another plus here).  The game has a huge following, and really does have a good base for future growth.  It will get better - strikes me like ranking SH:C when we did.  At most it's 13 people (4 bosses, 9 PCs), but they bring a lot of uniqueness people seem to want.  

FE9 has qualities of a FE...but a better one.  Also has characters with fan supprot (IF WE DO NOT RANK NAESALA, I KILL YOU ALL).  As for votesplit...I have always been against ranking someone noted with just one game when they have multiple appearances.  I would rank all FE9 (and later 10) characters as Radiance or Radiant or something or other.  Radiant (FER or something) would probably be best, as the only person you miss out on there is LARGO.  Yes, some people will change with the games (Elincia, Tibarn, Naesala...but the latter two just get more solidified in their division), but overall, the difference isn't huge.  The usual FE issues will be more prevalent than that, I'd say, as will the number of people to rank and arguments with that.  At worst, we get lots of new fighters!!

D2 is...pretty straightforward.  11 people at max or so.  Decent span of divisions, more interesting than D2, characters have personality.  Fewer other issues overall.  Fairly average, generally, at everything, which makes it the best pick here, to me, I think.  Less arguments would be good.  Granted, doesn't stand out as well in interest (P3) or drawing (FE9), but isn't bad at either by any means.

Mana Khemia - not yet!

Wild ARMs 5 is...wow.  This game is not doing well, and it's not anywhere near as interesting or sextastic as WA4 was, so that doesn't help.  A good rank 1-2 seasons from now, likely.  Gets us several decent fighters in all divisions, but the characters are weaker in most areas, which doesn't help it.  

XS3 is in the same boat as WA5, but with a hole in it.  Probably has a chance around the same time.

FE6 might very well be the next on the list!  It's the one with Roy, so that can't hurt >_>

RS and FF12 might very well be next, with LPT and MMXCM behind that.  Everything else I don't think stands a chance.

Not voting yet, but my own personal thoughts are conflicted for the top 2 spots, with D2 > P3 = FE9 at the moment.  Nothing else really should be in consideration at the moment.

[Cmdr_King]

Super: you're repeating yourself.  To save time, here's the short version of what I said: sales and newness and everything else don't matter.  What matters is having enough interest for people to give a fuck and enough draw not to completely murder people's ability to vote.

Snow: Everything sucks on draw.  Disgaea 2 sucks a lot less than everything else.  Persona 2 sucks the teensiest bit more than FE9 but is a lot more appealing for every other reason.  Thus, I'm supporting those two games.

[superaielman]

I'll repeat myself yet again: You're completely and hilariously wrong and picking one of the worst possible games to make a case on. P2 was removed from the DL from the first place for a reason, there isn't a shred of proof otherwise that it belongs in again.  Everyone has a pet favorite game that they want to see in, and the only valid way to do that is to rank most of them. That is a seriously fucking bad idea. Want proof otherwise? Look at NR.  I'm repeating myself for a reason, I had this same argument with people in 2004. And whoops, guess what happened? Ranking pet games without a hell of a lot of effort backing them is a bad idea.

Our roster is large enough without loading it down with bad draws that someone just happens to like.
 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Super: you're repeating yourself.  To save time, here's the short version of what I said: sales and newness and everything else don't matter.  What matters is having enough interest for people to give a fuck and enough draw not to completely murder people's ability to vote.

Snow: Everything sucks on draw.  Disgaea 2 sucks a lot less than everything else.  Persona 2 sucks the teensiest bit more than FE9 but is a lot more appealing for every other reason.  Thus, I'm supporting those two games.

And what I'm telling you is that P2 fails at having enough interest for people to give a fuck and enough draw to not murder everything's ability to vote, as NR's latest season showed. If it's done worse than P3, and P3 certainly isn't ready as is, then it has no place in the DL, especially considering it has no potential for growth at all.