Season 44 rankings: Making the final cut.

[superaielman]

Alright, here's the final barrier to what gets into the RPGDL. There's three questions...

1. Have you played this game?

2. Rank it?

3. Why not (if not)?

Some good reasons not to rank a game...

A. Not enough voters at the RPGDL.
B. Too hard to compare them to other RPG characters (assuming you've seen them that is).
C. Not interesting enough (i.e. boring in a duel and not much to write about them)
D. Other (please specify)

2/3 support (66.66...%) is needed for a game to be ranked. Each character in the game also needs 66%- IE if FE9 is ranked with 95% of the voters but only 15% support ranking Ashnard and the rest no/abstain on him, he won't be ranked.

The games this time:

Disgaea 2

Fire Emblem 9

[superaielman]

Disgaea 2

Yes
Yes

Eh. I'm not enthused on this game, but it's the best of the bunch. It has some good fanbait at least.

Rank all the permanent PC's and Zenon, abstain on Axel (Objectively  not horrible, just.. eh to him, I'll let others argue). No to the rest. Hell no to Fubuki.

Fire Emblem 9

No
Yes

Yes to all PC's, no to all bosses. I'll add comments later, but it's pretty close to ready. I will edit down to specific PC ranks if all of them or even most look like they're getting in, but I seriously doubt that's a concern.

Edit: Yes to Elfboy's list, no to the rest.

[Dhyerwolf]

Disgaea 2

Yes
Yes
Rank all Permanent PCs and Zenon. Abstain on Axel (But leaning towards no for split reasons). No to everything else.

Fire Emblem 9
No (Some FE 10 though!)
FW Ike, no to everyone else.
Well, no secret that I secretly dislike Fire Emblem games for a good bunch of reasons, and throwing in another one without the vote draw is not something I'd be fond of it. However, Ike is the one with the outside game, and he brings something new.
--Extra big no for anyone with major form split or ones there for the sake of representing a class (These class already have DL representation, I'm sure! Sometimes 3 or 4 times over!)

[Excal]

Dis 2

1. No

2. Open to arguments.

I figure it seems like the kind of thing that's going to get in by bland acclaimation, but I'm going to hang back and see what others have to say first.


FE9

1. Yes

2. Yes

It's overdue to get in the DL, and waiting for FE10 just feels like an excuse to delay its entry for as long as possible.

[Yakumo]

Disgaea 2
1. No
2. Abstain for now

I don't really know anything about this game at all aside from not liking the combat from the first one. >_>

FE9
1. Some, not all
2. No.  The draw still seems like it isn't there after all this time.  Wait until FE10 is ready, most of these characters show up there anyway from what I've heard(which is another potential problem in itself).  FE is boring in a duel, without the draw it isn't worth it.

[OblivionKnight]

Disgaea 2:
1) Played it, do like it a lot.
2) Yes, now that it looks like the majority do support the game.
3) As I said, it's the best game rank thus far.  It has interest, the characters are cooler than D1 combat-wise, and people do like it.  I'll think about yes on this one later...abstain for the moment.  However, should it be ranked, here's the list of characters to rank: Adell, Rozalin, Tink, Hanako, Taro, Yukimaru, Axel, Fubuki, Shura, Serion, 'Zenon' - total 11.  All of these characters are plot important with a lot of exposure and unique fighting ability.  Saying no to Axel (who is present in...every chapter, whom you fight 4-5 times, who is an NPC for a battle, an optional character in the end, and a summon), Fubuki (Yukimaru's brother with a boss form, an optional character form, and a temp NPC form just like Axel), Shura or Serion (*spoilers*, and present in many plot scenes, though only one battle - nonetheless, they are unique fighters, so...) sounds a bit odd, especially when they are better than D1 bosses DL-wise, and similarly interesting.  The PCs are a definite rank, and the bosses are just as good an plot important and present as the ones in D1 - draw's a bit worse, but I can't see blocking them when there's a lot of support for them.  

Fire Emblem 9:
1) Yes, liked it a lot.
2) Yes, now that it seems like the majority do support the game.
3) See Disgaea 2, mostly.  Want to think this through a bit more.  However!  List of what I think should be ranked...Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Mist, Volke, Ranulf, Elincia, Ena, Petrine, Oliver, Tibarn, Naesala, Rhys, Shinon, Gatrie, Rolf, Mia, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Nephenee, Kieran, Brom, Jill, Astrid, Tanith, Janaff, Ulki, Haar, Bastian, Lucia, Geoffrey, Ashnard, Illyana, Zihark, Sothe, Makalov, Tormod, Muarim, Stefan, Devdan, Resyon, Callil, Tauroneo, Largo, Nasir, Giffca, Black Knight, Bertram - total 51.  Yes, that's all of them.  If we're minimizing the FE9 people and waiting for FE10, I'd go with Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Mist, Volke, Ranulf, Elincia, Ena, Petrine, Tibarn, Naesala, Rhys, Shinon, Gatrie, Rolf, Mia, Nephenee, Kieran, Jill, Ashnard, Reyson, Nasir, Giffca, Black Knight - total 26.  Characters that are plot-important (Greil Mercenaries, Laguz Leaders), fan favourites (Kieran, Mia, Nephenee), neat fighters (most of the others)...this represents most important classes.  Bosses are also included here, the more important/present ones.  Bertram can wait a game.  However, for purposes of the next stage, I support the first list, whole group, just to ensure everyone that should get in has a support vote. 

Also, death if you don't vote yes to Naesala, but do to Tibarn.  DEATH. 

[Monkeyfinger]

Disgaea 2
1) No
2) Yes
Abstain on who to rank, guess this is just a blanket yes.

FE9
1) Yes
2) Yes
Rank Ike, Elincia, Volke, Oscar, Soren, Titania, Mia, Nephenee, Ena, Nasir, Tibarn, Naesala, Giffca.
No to the rest.

[Grefter]

How are we for writers for both of these?  And of course as with all FE, don't go retarded on ranking damned everything.  If it is obscure and the class has a relevantly similar plot character, don't fucking rank it all.  Disgaea, if it is aftergame and gets ranked I am going to fucking hurt people.

I don't know enough about either game to go into depth other than having started them both and being displeased with both.  I just want to be certain they are ready before throwing my support behind either. 

Note: I abstained from last round because I didn't think anything was actually ready yet.  People are at least on the ball with what our roughly three strongest ideas were (except for CK of course), my question is, are they in fact ready.

[Lance]

Disgaea 2
1.) Yes
2.) Yes

Who to rank? See OblivionKnight, basically: Adell, Rozalin, Tink, Hanako, Taro, Yukimaru, Axel, Fubuki, Shura, Serion, and Fake Zenon. Change Etna to "Disgaeas" or something; she doesn't need to be re-ranked.

Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
1.) Yes
2.) Yes

Who to rank? *deep breath*

Rank: Ike, Titania, Boyd, Oscar, Rhys, Soren, Mia, Ilyana, Rolf, Mist, Marcia, Volke, Nephenee, Brom, Elincia, Ena, Tibarn, Naesala, Petrine, Jill, Astrid, Haar, Bastian, and Tanith (24)

Do Not Rank: Shinon, Gatrie, Zihark, Makalov, Calill, Ranulf, Lethe, Mordecai, Keiran, Tormod, Muarim, Nasir, Largo, Sothe, Stefan, Devdan, Ulki, Janaff, Tauroneo, Lucia, Geoffrey, Giffca, Reyson, Bertram, Oliver, Black Knight, Ashnard (27)

[Tonfa]

Disgaea 2

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

Who to rank: Adell, Rozalin, Tink, Hanako, Taro, Yukimaru, Axel, "Zenon". Abstain on Fubuki, he is a neat dueller but may suffer from memorability issues. No to anyone else.

Fire Emblem 9

1. No.
2. Yes.

Who to rank: Abstain.

[superaielman]

Disgaea 2 is 10/21, FE9 is 11/21. Not great but okay enough.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Disgaea 2
1.) Yes, really enjoyed it.
2.) Yes, the duellers are all slightly less one dimensional than Dis1, and it draws pretty well. Many N1 fans like Dis2 more than Dis1, especially for its improved battle system. Not that the DL is full of N1 fans, but it has a pretty big external following.

Rank: OK had it right here. PCs, of course. (Adell, Rozalin, Tink, Hanako, Taro, Yukimaru)
Definitely want to see Axel ranked, he's the most memorable character in the game.
Fubuki I'm ambivalent on, but he's plot-relevant.
Shura and Serion I'm a big proponent of here since they are quite possibly the most interesting duellers from a N1 game who have a shot at getting ranked. Only argument I see against them is memorability, maybe? But they're a huge part of the plot, so I don't think it's that big of an issue. The biggest problem is that they don't tell you their names until really late in the game.
'Zenon'... ambivalent again. He's not even the final boss really?
Change Etna to "Disgaeas" or something.
Insert Taro hype here.

Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
1.) Yes
2.) Yes, I remember being vocal about this one at the last ranking period... a year ago?

Rank: Ike, Titania, Soren, Mist, Elincia (The big 5 obvious ranks)

Boyd, Oscar, Mia, Rolf, Marcia,  Nephenee, Jill (Too popular to ignore)

Volke, Ena, Tibarn, Naesala (Plot-important and interesting duellers. Ena/Naesala represent the bosses pretty well here)

Lethe (First-turn Laguz who actually uses the transformation gage system. This was a pretty interesting addition to the FE system and I used Laguz a lot in FE9. Not having a single transforming Laguz character ranked kind of throws out the argument that FE9's duellers are 'more interesting than the other FEs' in my opinion, so I'm throwing my support to Lethe as an interesting dueller with a little bit of plot. She's also required)

Tanith (Has the reinforce skill, which still shouldn't get her ranked higher than Heavy since they aren't Yuna-style meatshields, more like Sheena-style meatshields, and we all know how helpful -that- is. Another vote that's thrown in for the sake of interesting. She also has a little bit of plot and is required. Wind Sword was useful too.) (18)

Abstain: Rhys, Astrid, Keiran, Haar, Ilyana, Ranulf, Mordecai, Petrine, Ashnard (Not really -too- against these guys)

Do not Rank: Shinon, Gatrie, Zihark, Brom, Makalov, Calill, Tormod, Muarim, Nasir, Largo, Sothe, Stefan, Devdan, Ulki, Janaff, Tauroneo, Lucia, Bastian, Geoffrey, Giffca, Bertram, Black Knight (No to all of these unequivocally)

Reyson (Needs to be in Nyarlie's dungeon)

[Grefter]

Where the fuck is the discussion here guys?  We have never had such a massively back and forthed rank be such a pile on YES YES YES like this before in memory.  The only times it is YES YES YES is when stuff is an obvious rank....

So we are... roughly acceptable for active writers.

Alright, so how many people can say openly and honestly that they have sat down and given this the thought required to say that these are good ranks at this point?  I can't get a read on it.  My instinct told me that they were not, but I have been disconnected from the group in this kind of thing for a while now (and my focus was actually diverted on the progress of P3).

I want to avoid supporting a "OMGRANKRANKRANKRANKRANKRANKRANKRANK" thing like people were worried about in the Freeze topic.  If this shit isn't ready and it gets ranked well that is fine, that is what I believe people should be able to do if that is what they want, but I don't want to support it.  Just you know, is it in fact ready.  If they are openly honestly ready and not in a "I like this game and therefore it is automatically ready" kind of way or an "everything is always ready what are you talking about?" kind of way.  In a "Will this break 50% votes" kind of way since it has (barely) passed the "This can be written for" threshhold.

Like for both games I don't recall seeing a great deal of internal growth.  FE9 I think I saw more replays than fresh plays in the last 6 months just off the top of my head.  That doesn't smell like awesome ranking potential from stuff that was floating roughly the same juuuust kind of maaayyyyyybe slip by if we made an effort before the freeze.

[Dark Holy Elf]

D2:

Nope.
Yes. PCs, Axel, presumably the final boss assuming there are no plot issues. Arguments I've heard against Axel don't make much sense to me, and he's a very notable character from everything I've gathered.

FE9:

Yes.
Yes. Ike, Mist, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Volke, Titania, Jill, Nephenee, Marcia, Oliver. Bunch of others I could be argued on. Tibarn/Elincia/Naesala... I'll support if I don't view votesplit as a serious issue. Few others I could be argued on but it'd need a strong show of support (Ena!, Rhys, Astrid, Kieran, Mia, Lethe/Mordecai/Ranulf). No to everyone else.

EDIT: Tibarn, Elincia, Naesala, Ena, and Mia added to yes. Fan support is very obviously there, and who am I to argue with Ena and Naesala?

Rhys, Astrid, Kieran all get a no.

Abstaining on the kitty trio still.

[Clear Tranquil]

Disgaea 2

1) No

2) Abstain for now

Fire Emblem 9

1) No

2) Abstain for now

[superaielman]

Re: Gref.

FE9 I wouldn't worry about. The problem there for me has always been writers. The actual group playership of it's been decent, the external we know is solid thanks to the FE fanbase and GC RPG's doing better with the casuals than with us.  Since the freeze started it's picked up a few key writers (Pyro and Ciato), taking it from very meh to at least acceptable in that regard. My own copy's gone around the group- Tal just finished with it, Finali's giving it a spin. While this doesn't mean a ton in a void, it reflects the general trend of FE9 creeping upward. I'm not hugely impressed with it, but again, acceptable.  Long as we rank it smartly it should be a good addition to the site. Dis2 actually I am let down by. I expected a few more writers to have picked it up by now, but the NR numbers are passable enough, as is the rest. The problem we have (and have known about since we did a freeze and saw not much on the way) is that we aren't going to see many more DQ8 style ranks where most of the group's played it and it comes out of the gate strong. There is some room for internal growth (Unlike say with P2), which is good. But you're right in that these aren't slam dunk ideas.


I don't think we'll see 'omgrankrank', but the cases are strong enough and as long as the numbers are solid enough the DL could use some fresh blood with upwards potential, which both games have. P3 has this as well, WA5 needs some work but yeah same deal.

[SnowFire]

D2: No, Yes.  From what little I know, rank the PCs, don't rank the final boss.

FE9: Yes, Yes.  If this is going to be a FE9-only rank (which seemed to be the mood in the other thread?), I'd be in favor of simply avoiding people with vicious votesplit problems.  While I'm not one of them, I imagine a lot of FE9 players are FE10 players too, and FE10 forms would normally be legal and all and likely will be eventually anyway.  So it's not like these characters won't get in sometime.

Rank: Ike, Mist, Soren, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Volke, Mia, Lethe, Mordecai, Nepheene, Jill (12)
Abstain: Rolf, Rhys
No: Everyone else.

Greil Mercenaries are required plot characters who most people surely used (sans Gatrie & Shinon).  Mist & Volke have plot too, and Volke has a special.  Mia has Vantage which makes her an interesting dueler, Nepheene has Wrath, and Jill is awesome enough to get ranked because she's memorable and I suspect many people used her.

I'd like to add a special "definitely rank" to Lethe and Mordecai.  Unlike later options (Ranulf), they're forced and you're likely to use at least one of them somewhat to play around with Laguz.  And Laguz were the big interesting addition to the normal FE classes in FE9.  Lethe is an interesting Light, and Mordecai is a hilarious one.  They definitely win on a "diversity of duelers" count.  (Ironically enough, the Laguz Lords, because they stay transformed all the time, are less interesting as duelers.)

Rolf & Rhys are passable, but eh.  I never used Rhys, but he apparently gets Nosferatu and all which makes him interesting if somewhat unintuitive.  Rolf has a little plot, but less likely to be used with Astrid coming up, and both are ultimately Just Another Archer.

[Lady Ashe]

Disgaea 2

Yes, Yes, rank Adell, Rozalin, Tink, Hanako, Taro, Yukimaru, Axel, Fubuki, Shura, Serion, abstain on Zenon. Not seeing the reasoning for skipping the bosses other than possibly Zenon.

Edit: I'm stupid. Change the Zenon abstain to a rank.

Fire Emblem 9

No, Yes. I can't say who should be ranked from it, but please try to be reasonable in terms of how many do. <<

[superaielman]

*Blinks* Why would you skip zenon? (To Ashe and Snowfire both)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Perhaps they mean don't rank the real Zenon/final boss?

[Lady Ashe]

I was under the impression the DL didn't like those sorts of monstrous final bosses. Nothing to do with the gameplay of the thing. Though I wasn't certain, hence the abstain.

[SageAcrin]

Fire Emblem 9:

No, haven't played it, don't plan on it in the forseeable future because I don't really want to borrow any RPGs when I have a lot to play.

No.

Disgaea 2:

No, haven't played it, do have a copy.

No.

*Shrugs.*

As I've said, I've got pretty fixed standards on what I consider rankable, neither lives up to them. Barely 50% tops votes in NR, poor writers/internal in an absolute sense, FE9 has potential votesplit that would be better dealt with by waiting off and ranking 10 as well(Which may be a while down the line, obviously it's not a good idea now.), and neither has redeeming factors that might make me lean in their favor.

FE9/10 are on less commonly accessable systems currently(Again, the Wii will likely get more accessable, furthering what I've said about 10.) and Disgaea 2 has a very marginally more interesting cast than 1 and minor potential for growth to go with it. I've always been for 50% on average(Compared to draw, obviously), and, as far as I'm aware, they don't really measure up to this. Statistics that say otherwise could influence me here, not a lot else.

Note: If FE9 is ranked, keep it to Ike, Mist, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Volke, Titania, Jill, Nephenee, Marcia, Oliver. I trust Elfboy on those being plot important characters, and we really don't need a full or anywhere near it ranking. Filling in the gaps later is much more sensible for many reasons, to me. Dis 2 sounds like it's one or two characters more or less, so I don't really care.

[ThePiggyman]

Disgaea 2

1. No
2. Abstain for now.

Fire Emblem 9

1. Yes
2. Yes

As for who to rank; Ike, Mist, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Volke, Titania, Jill, Nephenee, Marcia, Lethe, Mordecai, Oliver
I think these 13 characters represent FE9 rather well. Other important/versatile characters from FE9, namely Geoffrey, Lucia, Bastian, Kieran, Elinicia, Ranulf, and the Laguz kings, I feel would be better ranked with the addition of FE10.

[Cmdr_King]

Disgaea 2

1. Yes
2. Yes.  No to Fubuki, blanket yes to anything else.
3. Despite fairly mid-low draw in NR and iffy writers, it's still surprisingly good and all things considered the issue is internal and should at least catch up to Disgaea within a few seasons.

Fire Emblem 9

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. FE9 kinda apathises me, so between being pretty borderline to start with, FE shitstorms, and the FE10 factor, I don't want to mess with it.
If it gets in, Yes to Tibarn and Naesala, no to any and all bosses, abstain otherwise.

[Meeplelard]

First off, would like to say that its nice to see people actually saying "no" to the "Rank" part, since it means they pay attention to the whole "second Phase =/= have to rank!" thing.  Does this mean I agree? No, no it does not, but its nice to see people paying attention to the system!

Disgaea 2:
1. No. I do intend to at some point.
2. Yes.
Reason: From the sounds of things, its no worse than Disgaea in ways not related to draw.  While this isn't really a positive thing, I find it hard pressed to give a good reason not to.

Fire Emblem 9:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
Reasons: FE10 feels like an excuse at this point, frankly.  Oh no, people might vote on duelers in the sequel! We already have the Sinistrals, Suikoden 4/Tactics, FFX-2 for Rikku (admittedly, Paine is still ranked, so the argument here is weaker.  Yes, you could apply it to Yuna, no, I don't know why you would <_<) and if I wanted to take things further, could say something like Lenneth from Radiata Stories or SO3 (again, this is a stretch.)  Really, this thing is being overstated.  And there's a grand total of one character who changes that significantly (Elincia.)  Other changes are...about half a division? (Tibarn and Naesala go from High Heavy to Low Godlikes, and that's...about it.)

That aside, its draw is passable enough, and the game is picking up interest slowly as super noted, and it has enough writers.

Rankings based on the topic discussion:
PCs: Ike, Elincia, Soren, Mist, Boyd, Oscar, Titania, Jill, Marcia, Nephenee, Mia, Ranulf, Rolf, Gatrie, Rhys, Naesala, Tibarn, Volke, Ena.
Bosses: Petrine, Oliver, MAAAAAYBE Ashnard for all that I hate the arguments around him.  FUCK NO to the Black Knight (at least, prior to FE10, where he should be Hrist claused, ie ranked solely based on that game despite having a form in FE9.)

Reasons for each PC?
Ike/Mist/Soren/Titania/Elincia are the key plot players.
Boyd/Oscar/Rolf/Rhys are secondary plot players; they're about equal to, say, Sain and Kent, if the first 10 chapters were FE9's version of Lyn mode.
NOTE: I could see snubbing Rolf since lots of people pass him up due to boring class (Sniper), and how he's under leveled.  Boyd/Oscar, however, are among two of the most used and generally well respected PCs in FE9, and Rhys...well, he has a unique class by PC standards, and has far more plot and usability than Largo (so no banking on unique class to save EVERYONE.)
Nephenee/Jill/Mia/Marcia are all widely used PCs (especially in the DL), and each cover a different class NOT covered by the plot players, so there's little redundancy.
Volke's someone just about everyone uses (its him or Sothe for your thief, gee, I wonder...), and even has some plot relevance.  Also good write up bait <_< >_>
Tibarn's...got a fair amount of plot, and even a forced Temp Ally Form in the 2nd to last chapter; he avoids Split Path issues as a result, and is easily scaled.
Naesala is Tibarn minus forced ally form, but generally more popular a character whose EXCELLENT for write ups (people seem to like this), and even has a forced Midgame boss form! (...I hope no one takes that seriously <_<)  Also, OK is threatening to fire a nuke at me (and probably the rest of the DL) if I don't support him ;_;
...since I mentioned the other two, might as well talk about Giffca.  Plotless Split Path PC...even if he is awesome in game, he's a text book example of what NOT to rank in a large cast like this.
For Ranulf...eh, if you want, replace him with Lethe or Mordecai; just figured a token Laguz (that isn't a royal) should be in the mix, and he's got the most plot in FE9.  Admittedly, I won't care too much if Mordecai or Lethe are chosen instead, *HOWEVER* I will say I do not support ranking all three; choose one, end it there.  I suggest Ranulf for plot reasons.
Ena...uhh...someone else cover this one <_< >_>

For bosses? Oliver and Petrine have actual plot and are memorable one way or another.  Ashnard is the villain...but has Goddess Protect BS.  I...think he should at least be mentioned in the next stage (providing it gets that far), and then people can DNR him if they want too; feels weird to just completely ignore him as a ranking idea.
Black Knight, as I'm sure most can agree, can go die in a ditch until FE10 gets ranked.  Plot Fight that's based entirely on luck WITH Goddess Protect Nonsense added on top of it...yeah, something we won't rank!

For the record, I can't see not ranking Elincia just cause of FE10; yeah she improves a lot, but...she has WAAAAY to much plot to overlook in FE9, frankly; I'll agree that other major plot players in FE10 (Lucia and Geoffrey come to mind) should be completely ignored now given their plot here is...pretty damn minor.

*Phew* Yeah, got a bit carried away here, but figured I should help cement what to rank if FE9 gets that far.

EDIT: Also, someone punch OK for suggesting Reyson.
Reason? Do you see Nils or Ninian ranked? I sure don't!