Season 44 rankings: Making the final cut.

[Meeplelard]

I pretty much agree with OK too.  One thing he brought up that I wanted to bring up (but my opinion being well known of the game would make it seem like I'm being a biased prick, so I with held it for your sake) is people voting against a game cause "I don't like it in the DL!"

Um, ok, that's...a completely subjective reason that doesn't speak for why its not a good rank.  To put a parallel in a completely hypothetical situation that won't happen...

If XS3 suddenly started getting numbers similar to FF7 in every single one of its matches, if the vote draw was stellar, etc, I don't think anyone can argue its suddenly ready to be ranked.
HOWEVER, when it hit Stage 2, people started saying "no" cause of the reason "I hate this game, it shouldn't be ranked."  That's...completely missing the point of rankings.  Its not whether you think its a good game, its whether you think its adequate enough for the DL.  If you hate FE in the DL, you have that right, but don't use that as your only freaking excuse to hold a game off.

Holding it off until FE10 is ranked? That's...a really bad idea for a number of reasons.  For starters, its an excuse to keep a game out of the DL for another what, 2 years? When its clearly ready *NOW*.  Potentially more, since there's no proof FE10 will EVER be ready in the DL.
If nothing else, XS3 is proof against this.  Yes, yes, XS1/2 are ranked...but even just keeping to that, while XS1 was ranked near instantly, XS2 took a really long time for it to finally get ready.  XS3 is taking even longer, and may never be ready.  And yet, not only are these games completely related, they build off each other.  XS1 and XS2 are clearly unfinished games with too much left open, you'd think people would flock to XS3 to finish the story (as big a mistake as this is <.<), but it didn't happen.

So what's to stop FE10 from having the same problem?  Simple; nothing.

I'd make a rant about split forms and how it effects many games in the DL already (XSs due to XS3, many FF Duelers due to KH(2), Lenneth in RS, Sinistrals due to Lufia 3, Dekar in Lufia: Ruins of Lore, Suikoden 4 due to Suiko Tactics, Mario due to the Paper Mario and M&L games, some Shadow Hearts characters in Chaos Wars...probably a few others.  NOTE that I'm aware some of these are stretches, but there's at least 3 games on there that are significant and serious), but I'll spare you.  Its just worth noting that this argument feels...kind of weak as a result, and if it indeed is a big deal, why aren't we booting these games?

EDIT CAUSE I JUST NOTICED THIS!

People who don't care about duelling worth or whatever (which is the same as me!) but just want to see someone they like get in.

Yes, I completely agree!  It was noted in the "Should we extend the freeze" topic or whatever.  I noted "ranking people gets more interest" and someone tried saying "Ok, so what's more interesting? PCs with FF8 syndrom from WA5, FE Duelers that are self explanatory, or a game with a dull PC cast like Disgaea 2?" to counter this, completely missing that by interest, I meant in a more popularity sense (someone was quick to point out that is what I meant.)

Again, I know for a fact that people looking at the sight IRL when I showed them would ask me if a dueler was ranked.  Even if this guy was like the blandest thing ever, they just wanted to see them cause, you know, they like that character.  People just like seeing someone like Ike or Rozalin or whatever succeeding cause they like those characters.

Interest doesn't always spawn from dueling worth; I think people have forgotten this over time cause we haven't ranked in a while, and such.  Sometimes, interest just comes from new blood that people like.  We ranked FE7 when we knew it was a pretty straight forward, monochrome cast, why? Lots of fresh new faces and people wanting to see them succeed!  I'm aware FE9 isn't as big a rank in this regard, but the point stands. Disgaea was the same deal (ADMITTEDLY! Disgaea also has a hilarious cast for nonbattle purposes, and Write Up Bait was a really good reason in the past.)

[SnowFire]

As a comment for the future, what with FF13 being announced to go for the 360 as well...  I'm not sure how in the blue hell this happened, but it seems like the 360 just might be the console for JRPGs despite having next to nothing for sales in Japan.  Granted, the only really good rankable option on it at the moment would be Lost Odyssey, but what with decent sales (I think it was around 500K in the US?) and a strong pedigree (Mistwalker & Uematsu), it might be an option for the future.  Mass Effect is a no-go, yes, but it's an amusing thought none the less.  (Don't own any next-gen system, so I haven't played any of the options myself yet, but the 360 is really looking like the main option for when I do get one.)

Re PCRPGs: Actually, Warcraft III heroes translate very well to the DL with only a few exceptions (the Paladin, mostly) and the playership is excellent.  It's more the "not actually an RPG" thing along with "let's not invite the Blizzard hordes in" for why that'd be a bad idea.

Meeplelard: Re votesplit, I agree it's not the end of the world, but it is a negative factor for a cast where a small rank is already going to be reasonably large.  Hopefully FE10 will be ranked soon anyway, and then Elincia/Tibarn can get in then regardless.  The thing is, anyone who votes on SO3 optional superboss Lenneth needs to be shot.  And Lufia 3 is obscure.  FE10 has similar playership to FE9 (actually, maybe even better playership what with the Wii doing better than the Cube?), and the forms are very clearly "legal."  So the issue is more relevant in this case.

Also, we've been over this slightly before, but FE9 Tibarn?  I think I saw him make a single attack.  The one mission you have him, I was racing ahead of him so he didn't steal my XP, and I didn't call any of the Laguz Lords for help in the final mission (foolishly thinking I'd get some reward for that).  Yes, he's a plot-relevant character, but it's quite possible to not be incredibly familiar with him.

superaielman: Uh, sure, change to an abstain on Zeon then, I'll assume I misinterpreted the final fight (I thought it was plottier than your average final battle a la Cloud vs. Sephiroth).  Everyone seems to be saying no to Fubuki, so I'll make that an explicit no then.

[Grefter]

Whoa whoa whoa.  There can be a lot of reasons to dislike something in the DL and they can be pretty valid reasons.  I think someone should put forward exacly the REASONS they dislike something in the DL, but it is still a reason to vote against something.  It could be  poorly themed (YES!), mechanics that don't gel with other games very well, Japanese only release, all kinds of other normal game specific reasons that people are wary of a variety of games, all fairly acceptable reasons to dislike a game in the DL.  The big bad one would be "I don't like this game", of course there is still others, annoying duellist moves (status whores and the like) and other similar stuff which should also be not a reason to hold back a rank.

[Shale]

Snowfire: The problem with WC3 (or something similar) isn't playership, it's playership crossover. How many people who play WarCraft play JRPGs? And how many of the ones who don't are going to keep coming every week to vote on the one Hero who got in that season?

[superaielman]

We are not ever putting anything Blizzard related on site ever, DL or NR. That is a bad idea for so, so many reasons. (B.net rush=dead DL.)

superaielman: Uh, sure, change to an abstain on Zeon then, I'll assume I misinterpreted the final fight (I thought it was plottier than your average final battle a la Cloud vs. Sephiroth).  Everyone seems to be saying no to Fubuki, so I'll make that an explicit no then.

Zenon's a normal final boss.  I think I know what you're talking about, hit me up on IRC about it.

FE9 crushes FE10 internally and probably externally as well. It's a sequel on a less owned system, so that makes sense. FE10 is.. not going to be ranked any time soon due to the Wii factor, so I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

The 360 may be the system. I donno. There are some rankable games on it on paper, but.. yeah, going to be a while before we rank a PS3/360/Wii game regardless. DS is already possible (FF3 doesn't fit the format sadly), PSP could happen (XF?).

[Luther Lansfeld]

Whoa whoa whoa.  There can be a lot of reasons to dislike something in the DL and they can be pretty valid reasons.  I think someone should put forward exacly the REASONS they dislike something in the DL, but it is still a reason to vote against something.  It could be  poorly themed (YES!), mechanics that don't gel with other games very well, Japanese only release, all kinds of other normal game specific reasons that people are wary of a variety of games, all fairly acceptable reasons to dislike a game in the DL.  The big bad one would be "I don't like this game", of course there is still others, annoying duellist moves (status whores and the like) and other similar stuff which should also be not a reason to hold back a rank.

The complaint with the FEs is that the duellers are rather boring and stock. Those issues you've brought up are not something I consider "just don't like these duellers in the DL" but a fundamental problem which makes them impossible to interpret in some way. The duellers are boring isn't something that makes them harder to interpret; it just means you whine a little when too many of them get in if you wish and vote on them anyway because they AREN'T hard to interpret unless you try to make it harder than it is. <_<

[Grefter]

That was more a general "Slow down, people can be just failures at articulating their point here" that you shouldn't make blanket statements about uh other blanket statements.

In this case though, well I can't speak for other people, but they should clarify regardless.

Edit - Punctuation is good.  All though referring to you retards as slow down people is vaguely funny.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Hehee. >_>

[alanna82]

FE duellers may be boring in the DL, but I like them as characters, and to me, that matters a lot too.

I'm sure thats the opposite way around too, where good duellers are boring characters.

[OblivionKnight]

Ok, just randomly want to clarify this, since I'm confused a little about it:

"2/3 support (66.66...%) is needed for a game to be ranked. Each character in the game also needs 66%- IE if FE9 is ranked with 95% of the voters but only 15% support ranking Ashnard and the rest no/abstain on him, he won't be ranked."

So this is when we choose who gets in and what not?  Wouldn't it be better to just have a list of every character in the ranking round that was brought up this round (just take a list of every potential character brought up this round for next round), put them in the ranking list for next round, and if people DNR them enough, they're out?  That way the whole list would be there for everyone to see, and get a gauge of things.  I sometimes feel like characters are lost or forgotten in this round that should be given a shot (of course, that could speak leagues about them in general).  Also, it lets everyone see specifically what they rank and DNR, and helps preclude blanket votes. 

This is just my random musing, but it does confuse me a bit.

[Meeplelard]

Snowfire: Its a negative factor, but...a minor one really.  Its more something that compounds with other issues rather than one that should stand alone (which some people are thinking it is.)  Again, if it was enough of a reason by itself, so many games are hit by this that they shouldn't have been ranked/be ranked either.

And regarding Tibarn...why does seeing him attack matter?  You can see his stats, skills, and equipment; that's really all that matters.  It'd be one thing if the game didn't let you access his stats; I'd agree it wouldn't be enough.  However, you can still see exactly what he's capable of and base those stats off the performance of other characters.  It'd be one thing if he had hidden features that only kick in when he attacks (like a lot of FE10 Bosses have hidden specials they can use instead of their attack, like Lekain has the big MT Silence move, or every boss from E-3 and up has big AoE attacks), but...can't think of anything like that in FE9 with the exception of Ragnell, Alondite and Gurugant's hidden Critical Hit immunity (ANOTHER REASON TO NOT RANK ASHNARD! <_< >_>; )
The point is, in any event, you always see TIbarn and you can even see him close enough to end game that scaling issues aren't a problem (if he was only in the Oliver Chapter, then yeah, I could see saying that's not enough.  Similar reasons Naesala's boss form isn't much of a point in his favor.)  You can see all relevant data about him, so I'm not sure why you'd care about him attacking.

Grefter: Yeah, I probably should have clarified...
But more or less what you said, people should actually have a clear reason other than some vague reason that sounds subjective as hell, and feels like it comes off as "EEWWW MORE FE GET THEE OUT!"  So yeah, clarity on your reasons is a good thing.

In any event, yes, I should have been more clear! I need to work on that <_<;

OK: The problem with that is...so many people will get booted cause everyone wants different characters in.  The best compromise is go with who seems more popular, and thus, its less likely people will get DNRed at random.  If we did it by listing everyone, a lot of generally popular faces (like, say, Mia) could get out based on a select few people preferring someone else whose similar (like, say, Zihark) or whatever.
The end result is neither character gets ranked, and the game ends up getting under represented.

[superaielman]

So this is when we choose who gets in and what not?  Wouldn't it be better to just have a list of every character in the ranking round that was brought up this round (just take a list of every potential character brought up this round for next round), put them in the ranking list for next round, and if people DNR them enough, they're out?  That way the whole list would be there for everyone to see, and get a gauge of things.  I sometimes feel like characters are lost or forgotten in this round that should be given a shot (of course, that could speak leagues about them in general).  Also, it lets everyone see specifically what they rank and DNR, and helps preclude blanket votes. 

Yep. It's how we've done it since the DQ8 rankings. This is the stage where we figure out if we're ranking the games, and if so what from them.  It's why we specifically yes/no certain characters. DNR is for hitting one or two ideas that people are iffy on, not a whole bunch.

And if you could point out someone being overlooked that we've missed in the past several rankings, by all means do so. But this method has been very inclusive.

[Hunter Sopko]

Disgaea 2
1: Yes
2: Yes
3: The plot relevent PCs, Zenon and Axel. No Fubuki.

FE9
1: No
2: Abstain
3: Iffy on the whole viability thing, not really digging a mass ranking of FE characters, so please limit it to 15 or so at most if it's let in.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Disgaea 2

Nope.
don't really give a damn. Yes to PC cast, abstain on everything else.

FE9:

Yes.
Yes to Ike, Mist, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Volke, Titania, Jill, Nephenee, Mia, Marcia, Ena. Abstain on Tibarn. No to everyone else.

[Grefter]

Disgaea 2

Not enough to count for the DL, enough to know it sucks.
Yes.  Rank it, get some stuff in.  PC Cast.  No to bosses outside of the final.  Abstain on final.

FE9

Not enough to count for the DL, enough to know it sucks.
Yes to Ike, Mist, Oscar, Boyd, Soren, Volke, Titania, Jill, Nephenee, Mia, Marcia, Ena. Abstain on Tibarn. No to everyone else.

Trusting Ciato on this.

[OblivionKnight]

Oh, it makes sense to me, the more I think about it.  My only concern here was that I was somewhat confused at times as to what character makes it in and what doesn't, just because of it never being explicitly states outright the way things work (which I do know, just...somewhat difficult to view for a first-timer).  It makes sense now. 

And yes, Meeple, that is partially what I mean - it gives a good, straightforward list of everyone so they can DNR them by seeing them right away, or not if they think they're good.  Don Mole almost makes me think of that - I think if he had been on a list, he wouldn't have got so close to being ranked.  But again, that's an exception, as I do believe things work the best.

Also, since both games, barring extreme changes of votership, will be ranked, I'm changing my vote to rank, with the same lists as in my post on page 1.  Since it seems like the general consensus of the DL is that both games are good, then I feel they are good enough to be allowed in.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh yeah, due to Con and all, this warning comes early: Please make a new post to inform of any edits you make (and exactly what that edit is) from this point on.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Meeplelard: Re votesplit, I agree it's not the end of the world, but it is a negative factor for a cast where a small rank is already going to be reasonably large.  Hopefully FE10 will be ranked soon anyway, and then Elincia/Tibarn can get in then regardless.  The thing is, anyone who votes on SO3 optional superboss Lenneth needs to be shot.  And Lufia 3 is obscure.  FE10 has similar playership to FE9 (actually, maybe even better playership what with the Wii doing better than the Cube?), and the forms are very clearly "legal."  So the issue is more relevant in this case.

Also, we've been over this slightly before, but FE9 Tibarn?  I think I saw him make a single attack.  The one mission you have him, I was racing ahead of him so he didn't steal my XP, and I didn't call any of the Laguz Lords for help in the final mission (foolishly thinking I'd get some reward for that).  Yes, he's a plot-relevant character, but it's quite possible to not be incredibly familiar with him.

I think the bigger issue is fans. People like the Laguz royals, they are very notable in game and some of the best DL duellers FE has seen so far. I'm pretty sure you are a pretty big minority in never seeing ANY of them, and you do see Tibarn in game regardless. Naesala... having a boss form that is extremely questionable in legality is what makes me more leery on him than Tibarn. Frankly I think not knowing what Tibarn does is kind of a silly argument.

Also *shakes head* I'm not sure how many times this has to be explained to you about various DL subjects, but just because the Wii sold better than the GC does not mean FE10 is more played in the DL. Because the Wii is such a low-RPG system, not many people own it here. It has extremely low playership here, but it doesn't really seem like you understand the concept that the people who vote in the DL are not representative of the gaming community at large. If no one can write for it, it can't be ranked. I don't care if it sold a ba-gillon copies around the world.

[AAA]

Disgaea 2

1. Yes

2. Yes. Rank PC cast, Axel, and Zenon. No to everyone else.

FE9

1. Yes.

2. Yes. Trying to remember the FE cast gives me a headache. Just keep OK reined in.

Edit-By which I mean I'm all for the most popular picks like Ike and co.

[RadLink5]

Disgaea 2

Yes
Yes

Rank: All permanent PCs, 'Zenon', Axel, Fubuki, Shura, Serion

Fire Emblem 9

Yes
Yes

Rank: Uh, fuck, I don't have time to sort through all those characters. Blanket yes. And yes, I am including the 'Black Knight' in that.

[Xeroma]

Disgaea 2:

I've played it some.
Tentative yes to the PCs and Axel. No to anyone else.

Fire Emblem 9:

Beaten.
Yeah, go with what NEB said for PCs.

[Lord Ephraim]

Disgaea 2:

1. Yes, I did the first stat topic >.>

2. Yes

Fire Emblem 9:

1. Yes, I also did the first stat topic <.<

2. Yes, PCs Elfboy said work fine too.

[AndrewRogue]

Disgaea 2
1. No
2. Yes
2a. Abstain on characters

Fire Emblem 9
1. Some
2. Yes
2a. Abstain on characters

[DjinnAndTonic]

After seeing all the opposition and lukewarm support for the ranking of these games, I just wanted to go on record saying that I'm personally really excited to see both of these games getting a chance at ranking. I've been wanting to see both of them in the DL since their releases and I feel that both of them are going to add some fairly interesting duelists to the roster, even with the minimal ranking I'm seeing here. P3 was another one I was really excited about seeing in the DL and it looks to be getting a lot of support too, so hopefully we'll see it soon.

I know a lot of people feel like we're ranking games just for the sake of ranking games - I just wanted everyone to know that you're making at least one DL voter really happy with this selection, and I hope I'm not the only one.

-Djinn

[RadLink5]

My support is hardly lukewarm for either of these games. I dare say, it is scalding hot.