Author Topic: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)  (Read 12193 times)

Talaysen

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2008, 01:34:06 PM »
Minato goes after another PC after he joins the battle if the other PC is attacked first.

Not always.  I've joined a battle with another PC and the enemy went first.  I've joined a battle with another PC and Minato went first.

I think what happens is when a PC meets a shadow, a normal battle initiates.  When Minato joins the battle, he joins in the middle of whatever round is going on, so since it's not the "beginning" of the round, it's not Minato's turn.

And even if you're correct?  It's not enough to counter the fact that he gets initiative against bosses.

Even if Moonless Gown is spammable, it would still get the same treatment as MetaGuard and other invincible moves bosses have.

What treatment?

Nyx, too, is a clear DNR. If for nothing other tha plot reasons. Is it Ryoji or Nyx that you fight? An amalgam? Nyx Avatar vs. Nyx disputes? Yeah, no.

Uh... they're all the same person, really.  I'm not buying this argument at all.

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2008, 02:41:00 PM »
*POTENTIAL SPOILERS BELOW*


Actually, Nyx is a clear DNR (plot fight with Minato you can't lose, the Great Seal fight with love from your friends and all that stuff), but Nyx Avatar (a.k.a., Ryoji) is perfectly rankable.  They are two different characters - one is the Goddess of Death, the other is Ryoji, the champion, a.k.a. the Avatar of Nyx.  Plotwise, Nyx Avatar is Ryoji (it's noted by Ryoji himself before Dec. 31st - "I am the bringer of Nyx, who will follow me once I transform into her avatar", something similar to that - and during the battle - "Ryoji?!"  "That was once my name - I did not mind it" - and at the end after killing Nyx, Ryoji speaks about it as well).  We'd be ranking Ryoji/Nyx Avatar, not Nyx itself (which is, as said, a plot battle).  I think the majority of this topic is discussion (at least, my thoughts behind making it) were to hash out the few odd ranks (Nyx Avatar, Aigis, Minato, FUUKA!!!!), for the most part.  DNRing on terms of power?  THat's plausible, but plot is pretty clear.

As for Minato, as I'd said in the past, I can see not giving initiative to him, for the same reasons Dhyer said (granted, I do still see him with initiative, due to what Tal said).  I actually lean on that side, and since I don't allow fusion customizability (i.e., no Abaddon with full nulls - kills the persona uniqueness), he's definitely beatable to me.  Especially since AGI I'm now 90% certain has no effect on speed, despite the fact coincidences might seem otherwise.  Again, a DNR on power is plausible, but...eh, I don't think he's that powerful.
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Talaysen

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2008, 02:50:48 PM »
As for Minato, as I'd said in the past, I can see not giving initiative to him, for the same reasons Dhyer said (granted, I do still see him with initiative, due to what Tal said).  I actually lean on that side, and since I don't allow fusion customizability (i.e., no Abaddon with full nulls - kills the persona uniqueness), he's definitely beatable to me.  Especially since AGI I'm now 90% certain has no effect on speed, despite the fact coincidences might seem otherwise.  Again, a DNR on power is plausible, but...eh, I don't think he's that powerful.

"don't think he's that powerful"

The only person who beats initiative Minato with Armageddon is Belial, and that's ONLY if you view high CTB speed as faster than TB initiative and allow her to use 4-D Pocket on him.  That's IT.  He IS that powerful.

And thanks for clearing up the Nyx plot stuff.  That all does sound familiar now.

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2008, 03:18:29 PM »
"Not the powerful" should have read "Not unbeatable to me if you disallow the initiative and fusion fun" >_>  Bad fast typing on my part makes me forget things.

If you disallow the initiative and don't allow fusion fun, he's beatable - below average HP means he's easier to nuke, and average speed in that case means he can be beaten by anyone faster who can nuke him, especially if he has weaknesses (which means he loses resistances that way if he tries to go with, say, Asparas with no weaknesses).  Strikes me as beatable with those assumptions, which is why he is theoretically not that powerful to the point where he's unbeatable.

With those assumptions >_>   
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Talaysen

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2008, 03:40:46 PM »
"Not the powerful" should have read "Not unbeatable to me if you disallow the initiative and fusion fun" >_>  Bad fast typing on my part makes me forget things.

If you disallow the initiative and don't allow fusion fun, he's beatable - below average HP means he's easier to nuke, and average speed in that case means he can be beaten by anyone faster who can nuke him, especially if he has weaknesses (which means he loses resistances that way if he tries to go with, say, Asparas with no weaknesses).  Strikes me as beatable with those assumptions, which is why he is theoretically not that powerful to the point where he's unbeatable.

With those assumptions >_>   

Oh, without initiative, he is beatable, yes.  Just not by very many people.

And... Minato having weaknesses isn't really a big problem.  I think he can wall any given element without having a weakness to any other given element (for example, if someone has fire and ice, he can null fire without having an ice weakness and vice-versa).

Though to be honest?  Even without initiative, Minato seems like just a better Ryu5, and he wasn't ranked for similar reasons.

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2008, 04:08:01 PM »
I realize the point is kind of moot, but what if Minato was only allowed Orpheus and whatever it was that Orpheus upgraded to?

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2008, 04:43:13 PM »
The interp is possible, Neph, but the idea just highlights how difficult ranking Minato is. It's the same thing as Wyrmless Ryu5, essentially - and it's an interp split that creates an insurmountable divisional abyss.
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Starphoenix das Helpoemer

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2008, 08:34:16 AM »
Hmmm, almost finished with "The Answer" in FES... so, I think I can stab at this... please note that some characters actually differ a good deal between each.

*OBVIOUS SPOILERS FOR PERSONA 3: FES*

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Main Character - Godlike or DNR. He suffers Blue-like problems in that he has way too many ways to tackle a problem. Determining his Persona in this case is a relative nightmare as there's really nothing he can't get to be a cure to... well, anyone. Physical fighter? Alilat laughs in their face (well, not so much laugh...). Darkness Mage-Fighter? Thanatos destroys them reasonably. Elemental Mage? Take your pick. This is not factoring in the Armageddon duo of Lucifer/Helel and Satan which is horrible in its own right. Add to this his whole initiative deal, and he walks through legions of characters that don't sport readily available invulnerability.

Yukari - Light. Damage output is sort of laughable, and her weakness is fairly easy to access. Skill set doesn't do much to put her ahead of the group as a whole. I think she'd actually want her boss form (Yes, she gets one), where she doesn't die to a sneeze and has reasonable damage.

Junpei - Middle. Spring of Life and High Counter give him longevity, but his fire game is abyssmal. He throws down fairly well with physical tech, and Rakukaja can go a decent way. He's actually not too bad as a dueller.

Akihiko - Middle. Solid damage with Elec Amp and Ziodyne. His physical attack is also good thanks to Fist Master along with Diarahan makes him solid overall. The weakness could be a killer and holding him back, however. His debuffs add a nice dimension to things.

Mitsuru - Middle. Same deal with Akihiko. Solid damage, but with more status and less debuff. Weakness is also holding her back, but at least she has access to full healing. Her boss form is suffocating (Near one hit KO territory on a Mind Charged Megidolaonn) and could pull Heavy.

Aigis - Middle. Her resistance could theoretically end a few matches before they begin. She has buffs and decent endurance. Elec Weakness hurts horribly, however. Also comes with healing, but doesn't seem nearly as potent as the previous two. Haven't really experimented with her Orgia Mode as much as I would like to, but the increase in damage is nice... wishes she had elemental damage. "The Answer" version of her is a toned down "I Have Access to All Persona" MC (Minato) with no Mix Raids. DNR her second form is my opinion.

Koromaru - Heavy. A lot can change in between versions. His fire damage is still solid, and his AGI score makes sure he's going to hit. High Counter and high HP allow him to tank it out, while Sukukaja aids the dodging and striking. The biggest gem is that he now gets more dependable Instant Death with the addition of Mudo Boost. He's more or less a turn 2 or 3 KO if the opponent isn't resistant to Darkness. Tir McDohl doesn't want to fight him.

Ken - Middle-High. Haven't played as much as with Koromaru, but he gets similar treatment. His Instant Death gets bolstered by Hama Boost, but his Elec game is bad. Restorative healing is good, but expensive. Less exciting as well. His is more likely to get smacked by a Darkness wielder, however.

Metis - Middle-High. No weaknesses and high damage output. Orgia Mode lasts for a good four turns before backlashing on her horribly, but most matches aren't going to last long enough for that to matter. Brave Blade is good damage when boosted, and her critical hit rate is good enough come into play as a factor.

Chidori - Light. Yeah, she dies way too fast, but her Tetrakarn game can probably screw with fighters at her level. Spring of Life and this make her a fun duelist if only for futility's sake.

Jin - Middle. Was thinking of Heavy, but... nah. If his weakness game transfers into the RPGDL, he can be pretty lethal. Has access to some instant death and status, but nothing that I really felt writing home about. Though hearing him ***** about you covering up all your weaknesses is funny and sad at the same time.

Takaya - ???. Frankly, I never really let him live long enough to do anything truly noteworthy to me.

Nyx Avatar - Godlike. Form buffering gives it a lot of options, and most people who specialize in an element will eventually get stuck on a certain element or a physical resistance. Barring this, Nyx Avatar goes into Death Form and nukes the opposition. Night Queen is horrible almighty damage with random status attached, and Moonless Gown is perfect defense. Good enough to run with the Godlike division.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 12:29:52 AM by Starphoenix das Helpoemer »

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2008, 07:59:34 PM »
Rank - Akihiho, Mitsuru, Yukari, Junpei, Koromaru, Ken, Aegis, Shinji, Strega, Nyx Avatar.

DNR- Minato, Fuuka. Bad OK, bad.
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2008, 02:10:49 AM »
There are plenty of DL games where characters aren't allowed access to all of their options. Aftergame weapons and armor are especially noteworthy. Assigning characters a skillset based on plot claims isn't far-fetched either, look at Golden Sun for a good example. In P3, all of the characters except for Minato (and Aigis in FES) only have one persona (sort of), so only allowing Minato his initial persona Orpheus (and its relatives) isn't all that farfetched to me. I'd support this toned-down version of Minato myself, it still makes him a decent dueller, he's just not so obviously Bluelike this way. Leaving  him unranked just doesn't sit right with me, and it's surprising how unwilling everyone is to rank him this way considering all of the other special cases duellers we have in the DL. People keep likening him to Ryu5 because he's an overpowered main, but steps have been taken in many cases to qualify duellers (usually in the stat topics) to make them rankable. SaGa, Golden Sun, VP1, any ARPG - all of these duellers are based on a widely-held interpretation. Some people don't follow these interps (I'm sure there's a few casual dullers who vote such that Tales characters can just infinitely dodge all attacks), but the majority of the voters take the time to learn the common interpretations. If everyone could come to some loose kind of agreement on one interpretation of Minato (whether it be enforcing no fusions or just forcing him to use Orpheus or whatever), then there's not going to be this 'huge upset' that everyone's worried about. I honestly feel this way abou Ryu5, too.

So I would vote for a Orpheus-only Minato, and I would only vote on the cast from P3, FES is just a good excuse for more people to have exposure to the game.  All PCs, with Shinjiro being scaled to endgame, plus Chidori-Jin-Takaya. I suppose Nyx Avatar would make a good High Godlike, and we -have- been trying to get more of those.

And after saying all that about allowability, I'd feel bad saying no to Fuuka. ...well, I suppose she would make a HILARIOUS joke Puny. If not, then she's awesome NR-bait!

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2008, 02:16:39 AM »
DL games where people don't get all their options are because they aren't unique (or unique enough) options. But a fully unique option=fully legal generally always (Can't think of anything to go against that minus something like Mana Sword which is dependent on 2 PCs). You really couldn't force the Orpheus upgrade only onto voters, and you'd get colossal votesplit.
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Talaysen

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2008, 02:20:37 AM »
There are plenty of DL games where characters aren't allowed access to all of their options. Aftergame weapons and armor are especially noteworthy. Assigning characters a skillset based on plot claims isn't far-fetched either, look at Golden Sun for a good example. In P3, all of the characters except for Minato (and Aigis in FES) only have one persona (sort of), so only allowing Minato his initial persona Orpheus (and its relatives) isn't all that farfetched to me. I'd support this toned-down version of Minato myself, it still makes him a decent dueller, he's just not so obviously Bluelike this way. Leaving  him unranked just doesn't sit right with me, and it's surprising how unwilling everyone is to rank him this way considering all of the other special cases duellers we have in the DL. People keep likening him to Ryu5 because he's an overpowered main, but steps have been taken in many cases to qualify duellers (usually in the stat topics) to make them rankable. SaGa, Golden Sun, VP1, any ARPG - all of these duellers are based on a widely-held interpretation. Some people don't follow these interps (I'm sure there's a few casual dullers who vote such that Tales characters can just infinitely dodge all attacks), but the majority of the voters take the time to learn the common interpretations. If everyone could come to some loose kind of agreement on one interpretation of Minato (whether it be enforcing no fusions or just forcing him to use Orpheus or whatever), then there's not going to be this 'huge upset' that everyone's worried about. I honestly feel this way abou Ryu5, too.

Minato's personas are ALL unique.  There's no reason to not allow them unless you just want to arbitrarily nerf duellers who are too good, which makes... no sense at all.  Hey, you're too Godlike so now you're a Middle.  Yeah, no.

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2008, 03:03:17 AM »
For that matter, technicallly speaking Minato recieves no 'upgrade' ever.  While Orpheus Telos does exist (in FES), it's meant to be incredibly hard to get, not something handed to you.  So saying "only Orpheus" turns a Bluelike into a Puny (Orpheus is really, really bad by endgame.  Tier one moves are suck and multiple weaknesses to boot).  Uh yeah, no thanks.
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 04:24:44 AM »
I'm not saying that 'Orpheus-only' Minato is the only way to interpret this, it's just the interp I thought would work.

You could just as easily limit it to non-fusion Personas. This would give him a lot more options, but would take away a bit of his power. It's not like there's no precedent for this sort of thing, either. Plenty of voters don't allow Item Synthesis equips or other hard-to-get equips (Like Ryu3's GooKingSword) and some people only allow storebought equipment. I suppose you can argue that *all* Personas are easy-to-get, though.

What I'm saying is that all of the duellers at the DL are just interpretations that the group commonly holds, based on the game systems/stats/skillsets. If there was enough demand for it, the common interps work themselves out - look at VP, SaGa, Star Ocean 3!

One generally held interp at the DL is that anything unique to a single character tends to be legal, but there are exceptions to even that rule. Minato just happens to be on the fortunate (or unfortunate if it makes him unrankable) end of that interpretation. By that same token, hard-to-get equipment is often thrown out by many voters, even if it's completely unique (BoF3). Minato could just as easily be on the fortunate (or unfortunate) end of this rule, too.

Why not look at how different interps could effect Minato? What would his skillset look like with only non-fusion Personas? With only 'storebought' Personas? What if he could only pick one Persona per battle?

The Orpheus-only option just struck me as having the highest precedent. Like how Golden Sun characters just get all of the Djinni of their respective element, despite being able to equip -any- Djinni, or how FFVII characters get their starting Materia at max levels for their only Materia options.

Finding a suitable 'interp-range' just seems better than throwing him out off-hand.

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2008, 04:32:04 AM »
No-Fusion would be... uh, hopelessly random and counter-intuitive.  Aside from Orpheus all Personae available outside fusion are essentially random drops (though really it's always, always better to just fuse them), and honestly I couldn't tell you what all Persona do drop, let alone how good a dueller that would make him.  Offhand it probably... makes him the biggest spoiler Heavy has ever seen?  But maybe not.
but serioulsy, anything of endgame level has to be fused.  If you're trying to say only allowing Fool-arcana stuff (which fits the Golden Sun example)... uh, I guess that's something that at least makes him reasonable to interperate, and Fool's diversity at least doesn't completely misrepresent his in-game performance.  Hell, Susano-O may well be one of his go-to personae (it has a 1-time reraise passive skill).  For all that's still really missing the point of "every single Persona not on the other PCs is unique to him".
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2008, 04:43:02 AM »
You'd never be able to get a standardized view that would make him rankable because by the rules we typically go by, he's unrankable to most. There is no way that this could be gotten around. Changing how the rules apply to everyone else just for one dueller to make him rankable (But at the same time, perhaps create an extremely massive vote split) is just not something that's feasible. We didn't rank Ryu 5 for such reasons, and doesn't he need to actually get his turn to access his evilness? Minato has initiative to many.

The item synthesis that's usually not allowed is because the items aren't too unique. Items that are unique and even semi unique are often allowed (Elemental Armor in SO 3 stands out as something notable). It's not that it's item synthesis that's the problem, so much as the uniqueness.
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2008, 04:52:10 AM »
For that matter, technicallly speaking Minato recieves no 'upgrade' ever.  While Orpheus Telos does exist (in FES), it's meant to be incredibly hard to get, not something handed to you.  So saying "only Orpheus" turns a Bluelike into a Puny (Orpheus is really, really bad by endgame.  Tier one moves are suck and multiple weaknesses to boot).  Uh yeah, no thanks.

I think common sense would make it all Orpheus-based persona. So uh, Orpheus, Thanatos(Obvious reasons + Artbook), and Messiah(Fusion of his two plot persona + Artbook)

Though it's still silly to limit him like that. The only limitation which really makes sense to me is not giving him personas above endgame levels(Which in my case at least meant no Armageddon, but this would obviously vary for others) As far as I know, the only persona that nulls everything is NG+(Or at least so damn hard to get on the first run that it might as well be), so while he is certainly tough to beat, it's not impossible as long as your skillset is varied enough.

Nyx Avatar... I don't see any problem with him. He doesn't spam Moonless Gown infinitely in the fight, so I don't see him doing it here either. He's still Godlike, but certainly not unbeatable.

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2008, 04:57:50 AM »
No Persona nulls everything.  Orpheus Telos is insane to get in a first playthrough (max all S.Links) and probably what you're thinking of, but is actually just Strong: All, and generally designed to tackle the optional superboss (she will cast Armageddon if you have too many Nulls, basically).  It's a neat Pesona in its own right, but not infinite ownage or anything.

and... as I recall, despite the opening cinema, Thanatos has nothing to do with Orpheus in a gameplay capacity, except that they are fused to make Messiah.  But I don't think either are really things you're likely to use in-game very much, although in Messiah's case that's more accessability I guess?  Eh, the other persona that high in level (Read: Lucifer) are better.
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2008, 04:58:30 AM »
Moonless Gown would get the same general treatment that boss invincibility moves usually get: A one turn break in between using it. It's how Berle isn't our best dueller and such. Nyx...is certainly more rankable than Minato, but as we've seen, those multi part SMT bosses with shit HP in between forms can be problematic. P3 isn't going to have the best of draws, and the general type of dueller Nyx is would likely only fit with a killer draw (Because it would be seriously annoying with those mass of build up shit forms that could serve as spoiler to a lot...although not too many if someone has decent physicals and magic, I think).
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2008, 05:11:06 AM »
Quote
The only person who beats initiative Minato with Armageddon is Belial, and that's ONLY if you view high CTB speed as faster than TB initiative and allow her to use 4-D Pocket on him.

For the record? I think Lambda spoils Initiative Armageddon as a strategy. Not to say if he actually beats Minato, but he's certainly puts a wrench to that.

My views on this...
Basically rank all the PC sans Minato. You either take Minato as restricted to the three max level Personae he will always get (Thanatos/Susano-O/Messiah) which is an "Arbitrary" nerf. Or, you give him every option available and he comes god incarnate (read: Unrankable high godlike). Seems pretty simple there.

DNR Nyx. Moonlight Gown is dumb, but its not as dumb as Night Queen which is just retarded beyond belief. As for Takaya and Jin? Sure. I'm not fan of them (boring, not really memorable and all that good stuff), but they have plot at least. Same with Chidori.

On that note, the talk of ranking Nyx makes me wonder more on why ranking Volsung who also basically rides on an unintuitive mechanic should be DNR'd. He's beatable; just make sure he doesn't get a turn or kill him before he moves. Which I am fairly certain a few godlike can do. IQA is a different story though.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2008, 05:15:59 AM »
The fact that 'every Persona in the game is unique to Minato' is almost an argument against in my mind. The Persona fusion/evolution/switching feels more like it's a part of the game's system than anything inherent to Minato himself. This is especially true when you look at FES, where Aigis can do the exact same thing. It's just that whoever is the main character gets to evoke lots of different personas, it doesn't change the fact that Aigis' main alignment is The Chariot, just like Minato is still primarily tied to the Fool personae (And Thanatos\Messiah, I suppose).

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2008, 05:22:53 AM »
What would his skillset look like with only non-fusion Personas?

Fusion personas are still unique to Minato.  Throwing them out seems, again, arbitrary nerfing.

In this case, he is able to immune just about everything, has good stats and skills, and all kinds of stuff.  Still has initiative.  Not quite Bluelike but definitely a great Godlike.

With only 'storebought' Personas?

...storebought...personas?  Did you play the game?  All personas are either storebought or not depending on how you look at it.  You can buy them in the compendium IFF you've gotten them from a random drop first.  This interp doesn't even make sense.

What if he could only pick one Persona per battle?

Come in with Lucifer, initiative, Armageddon.  This doesn't change him at all.

The Orpheus-only option just struck me as having the highest precedent. Like how Golden Sun characters just get all of the Djinni of their respective element, despite being able to equip -any- Djinni, or how FFVII characters get their starting Materia at max levels for their only Materia options.

I think you're missing the point.  Those are done like that because everyone in the cast can equip these things.  They aren't unique, therefore, not allowed.

Finding a suitable 'interp-range' just seems better than throwing him out off-hand.

This is kind of misunderstanding what an interp is, I think (or I am, in which case I apologize in advance).  When you interp a character, you figure out how you see a character by what rules you've already set for other characters in the DL.  You don't change interps from character to character.  Allowing Fei Yamikei even though it's past endgame levels, but not allowing Minato past endgame levels personas, for example.  If you allow Yamikei, you allow the overlevelled personas.  You don't decide "oh, Yamikei isn't broken so I'll allow it but Minato's overlevelled personas are so I won't".  It just doesn't work that way.

Above all, the DL, the one thing views should have is consistency.  What you're suggesting is to take Minato with a view that is NOT consistent with how lots of people view the DL.  If it's consistent with your view, fine!  If it's not, shame on you.

Though it's still silly to limit him like that. The only limitation which really makes sense to me is not giving him personas above endgame levels(Which in my case at least meant no Armageddon, but this would obviously vary for others) As far as I know, the only persona that nulls everything is NG+(Or at least so damn hard to get on the first run that it might as well be), so while he is certainly tough to beat, it's not impossible as long as your skillset is varied enough.

Just noting, if you don't allow Minato's overlevelled persona, you better not allow Terra's Ultima, etc.

And you can fuse a persona that nulls everything but Almighty in the maingame, IIRC.

Moonless Gown would get the same general treatment that boss invincibility moves usually get: A one turn break in between using it. It's how Berle isn't our best dueller and such. Nyx...is certainly more rankable than Minato, but as we've seen, those multi part SMT bosses with shit HP in between forms can be problematic. P3 isn't going to have the best of draws, and the general type of dueller Nyx is would likely only fit with a killer draw (Because it would be seriously annoying with those mass of build up shit forms that could serve as spoiler to a lot...although not too many if someone has decent physicals and magic, I think).

For one thing, I didn't even know about this "treatement" of boss invincibility.  Is it really that common or just your view?  I'm curious.

Honestly, I'm not sure how to treat it, but "one turn break" sounds kind of arbitrary.

Also, note that Berle is from an ARPG game.  He doesn't actually get "turns" in-game.  So you can just view his invincibility as wearing off after he acts, and therefore cannot be reapplied until his next turn.  There's not really an indication otherwise, IIRC.

As for Nyx Avatar, when it wears off is clearly indicated (it takes up his turn, actually, but he doubleacts).  As such, I'm not inclined to arbitrarily nerf him and say he has to wait a turn.  Unless I was to go the "boss must always follow AI always" route, in which case... he can still spam it sometimes but not always or something.

I'd have to think on this some more I guess.

And according to Pyro, Night Queen pierces full status immunity.  I think you can null single statuses of it normally though.  So Nyx Avatar is still pretty much unrankable anyways.

The fact that 'every Persona in the game is unique to Minato' is almost an argument against in my mind. The Persona fusion/evolution/switching feels more like it's a part of the game's system than anything inherent to Minato himself. This is especially true when you look at FES, where Aigis can do the exact same thing. It's just that whoever is the main character gets to evoke lots of different personas, it doesn't change the fact that Aigis' main alignment is The Chariot, just like Minato is still primarily tied to the Fool personae (And Thanatos\Messiah, I suppose).

I'm sorry, but bullshit.

Read the plot.  The game explicitly says that this is Minato's power.  That no one else can do it.  Aigis inherited the power in FES.

If there was no plot backing, then maaaaybe you'd have an argument (though I doubt I'd buy it anyways, since a lot of games have unique mechanics that are allowed in the DL, though I don't know how many apply to single characters).

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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2008, 05:31:15 AM »
Could be that's not the standard boss pure Invincibility interp view and it has never again come up, but I believe that's how most people take it.
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2008, 05:51:43 AM »
Could be that's not the standard boss pure Invincibility interp view and it has never again come up, but I believe that's how most people take it.
Aside from Berle, who has ARPG crap, has it come up for anyone else ever?
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Re: Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2008, 05:58:01 AM »
Fusion personas are still unique to Minato.  Throwing them out seems, again, arbitrary nerfing.

In this case, he is able to immune just about everything, has good stats and skills, and all kinds of stuff.  Still has initiative.  Not quite Bluelike but definitely a great Godlike.

It's not really arbitrary when you consider the number of stat topics that don't include equips made by Synthesis/Alchemy.

The Orpheus-only option just struck me as having the highest precedent. Like how Golden Sun characters just get all of the Djinni of their respective element, despite being able to equip -any- Djinni, or how FFVII characters get their starting Materia at max levels for their only Materia options.

I think you're missing the point.  Those are done like that because everyone in the cast can equip these things.  They aren't unique, therefore, not allowed.

The point I'm trying to make is that these games are exceptions to the 'standard'.

Finding a suitable 'interp-range' just seems better than throwing him out off-hand.

This is kind of misunderstanding what an interp is, I think (or I am, in which case I apologize in advance).  When you interp a character, you figure out how you see a character by what rules you've already set for other characters in the DL.  You don't change interps from character to character.  Allowing Fei Yamikei even though it's past endgame levels, but not allowing Minato past endgame levels personas, for example.  If you allow Yamikei, you allow the overlevelled personas.  You don't decide "oh, Yamikei isn't broken so I'll allow it but Minato's overlevelled personas are so I won't".  It just doesn't work that way.

This is not what I meant by 'interp'. What I'm referring to are the standards that seem to be set by the stat topics. Once the DL finds one way to interpret something, most people follow that interpretation with little deviance. The BoF3 stat topic doesn't allow Ryu3 the GooKingSword, how many people bother to say 'oh, let's allow that now since I allow Terra Ultima'. The Valkyrie Profile topic allows PCs to build up to their PWSs, despite the solo setting. Golden Sun skillsets aren't disputed, but they are wildly variable in-game. Sure, these are old topics, but that means the majority of people don't dispute them, and the games are workable as a result. Newer topics like DQ8 give voters multiple options when deciding how to interpret, but they still offer an 'optimum' view that most people tend to follow, with generally only small disagreements here and there.

Yes, I see that ranking Minato might lead to some people voting on him as unbeatable, but if the standard is such that he's -not- considered invincible, that problem's not really there.

The fact that 'every Persona in the game is unique to Minato' is almost an argument against in my mind. The Persona fusion/evolution/switching feels more like it's a part of the game's system than anything inherent to Minato himself. This is especially true when you look at FES, where Aigis can do the exact same thing. It's just that whoever is the main character gets to evoke lots of different personas, it doesn't change the fact that Aigis' main alignment is The Chariot, just like Minato is still primarily tied to the Fool personae (And Thanatos\Messiah, I suppose).

I'm sorry, but bullshit.

Read the plot.  The game explicitly says that this is Minato's power.  That no one else can do it.  Aigis inherited the power in FES.

If there was no plot backing, then maaaaybe you'd have an argument (though I doubt I'd buy it anyways, since a lot of games have unique mechanics that are allowed in the DL, though I don't know how many apply to single characters).

A lot of voters don't go by plot explanations, using only gameplay as the source of interpretation. You could look at it as if 'only Minato and Aigis' can equip multiple personas, or you can look at it like 'neither of them has unique claim' to all the Personas.

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 06:00:13 AM by DjinnAndTonic »