Persona 3 Ranking Discussion (VERY LIKELY SPOILERS)

[Monkeyfinger]

Zophar-like overkill hype for a PC that's part of an 8-person cast

Am I the first person to point out a problem with this?

[Cmdr_King]

It's a skill that costs 100% MSP to cast.  But yes, I think everyone understands that taking him against the rest of the cast destroys them (this is true even without Armageddon, he still deals double average damage or better with multiple other Personae.)

[Monkeyfinger]

My post is about Minato himself.

8 person cast = their damage outputs add up to be 8x average. It is not POSSIBLE for Minato to go above that. A 3 turn average makes him chafe not quite as hard, but there's still going to be godlikes who can live through an armageddon.

[Talaysen]

It's not really arbitrary when you consider the number of stat topics that don't include equips made by Synthesis/Alchemy.

If said Synthesis/Alchemy is unique to the character, then it should be there.  If that is true and the stuff's not in the topic?  Then I disagree with the topic and wish the topic creator lots of psyducks.  And will go allow it.

The point I'm trying to make is that these games are exceptions to the 'standard'.

But... they aren't.  The standard is we allow unique stuff.  That stuff isn't unqiue.  Therefore we don't allow it.  I honestly don't see what the problem is here.

This is not what I meant by 'interp'. What I'm referring to are the standards that seem to be set by the stat topics. Once the DL finds one way to interpret something, most people follow that interpretation with little deviance. The BoF3 stat topic doesn't allow Ryu3 the GooKingSword, how many people bother to say 'oh, let's allow that now since I allow Terra Ultima'. The Valkyrie Profile topic allows PCs to build up to their PWSs, despite the solo setting. Golden Sun skillsets aren't disputed, but they are wildly variable in-game. Sure, these are old topics, but that means the majority of people don't dispute them, and the games are workable as a result. Newer topics like DQ8 give voters multiple options when deciding how to interpret, but they still offer an 'optimum' view that most people tend to follow, with generally only small disagreements here and there.

Well, no one says you have to follow the stat topic.  If you have some weird views that make characters different than the stat topic suggests, well, don't use the stat topic.  Make your own if you want.  HOWEVER, your view better be consistant throughout the DL.  Like I said, if one of those interps you brought up (or any other that makes Minato rankable) fits with your views of the DL in general, that's fine.  Then vote on it.  Vote to rank Minato as Godlike.  Or Light.  Or whatever.  But trying to convince others to use an interp that is against their views of the DL?  That ain't happening.  And since the common view of the DL, not Persona 3 alone makes Minato unrankable, you shouldn't be surprised that most of us are going to vote for him to not be ranked.

Yes, I see that ranking Minato might lead to some people voting on him as unbeatable, but if the standard is such that he's -not- considered invincible, that problem's not really there.

Well, the "standard", as you put it, is generally not something someone just makes up for the game.  It's how the most common views of the DL would interp the game.  I think you're viewing this all backwards.  Views of the DL as a whole begets interp of a game.

Though there are cases where stat topic creators try to set a standard that is only their views, which don't coincide with the common opinion.  For one thing, I don't think OK did this at all.  In fact, I had started the game before he did and came to the same conclusions for the most part.  For another thing, if people do weird stuff in the topic and people don't agree with it?  They generally post in the stat topic saying as such and putting their own notes for their own views.  Or just make a whole new stat topic.  It's not even that uncommon a practice.  As such, I don't think a "standard" forcing people to adopt a view is a problem, since most people would just decide whether or not they agree with the standard.

A lot of voters don't go by plot explanations, using only gameplay as the source of interpretation. You could look at it as if 'only Minato and Aigis' can equip multiple personas, or you can look at it like 'neither of them has unique claim' to all the Personas.

Well, we do go by gameplay, not plot for the most part.  But when you try to write off things by saying "it's not Minato, it's a part of the game", when there IS proof that it IS Minato, then uh.  Yeah.  That's not working.  It IS Minato.  The game proves this.

As for the argument against it not being unique?  Well, for one thing, they are CLEARLY unique in vanilla P3 (which is the one up for ranking, not FES, not to mention that most people played that version), since The Answer doesn't exist.  In FES, Minato is the only one who can use them while he is a PC, therefore they are unique to him.  The closest example is the claws in FF4, where Yang is the only one who can use them while he's around.  Edge is the only one that can use them at endgame.  However, the uniqueness is stronger in P3, since The Answer is basically a whole new game, whereas all of FF4 is one game.

The argument goes the other way as well for Aigis.  She's the only one that can use them until the end.  The argument's weaker this time around, since this is AFTER Minato already used them (and doesn't have the benefit of having a version without The Journey), but I still think it's incredibly sound.

My post is about Minato himself.

8 person cast = their damage outputs add up to be 8x average. It is not POSSIBLE for Minato to go above that. A 3 turn average makes him chafe not quite as hard, but there's still going to be godlikes who can live through an armageddon.

Hurhur contradictions.

3 turn average + 8 person cast = their damage output adds up to 24x average over 3 turns.  THEREFORE, it is not possible for Minato to do more than 24x average damage on turn 1.

24x average damage is almost 10 PCHP, which... I don't think any Godlike survives that much damage, especially since it's ITD/ITE.

[Cmdr_King]

1) Mitsuru - 273 (Bufudyne)
2) Akihiko - 249 (Ziodyne)
3) Koromaru - 234 (Agidyne)
[Shinjiro - 195 (Strike Attack)]
7) Yukari - 187 (Garudyne)
5) Ken - 178 (Pierce Attack)
6) Junpei - 174 (Slash Attack)
8) Aigis - 145 (Pierce Attack)

So the other 7 PCs together deal 1440.  Armageddon deals 9999.  Even taking a three-turn... Minato uses his other two turns for 193 damage physicals for 3462 average damge per turn... Aigis' damage would double due to Orgia Mode in a three turn, so... 1585 for total other PC output, and you get an average of 631 roughly.  9999/631/2.5 rounds out to roughly 6.3x PCHP damage.
Um... some people might respect Myria 1 that much?  Maybe?  Yeah.

Edit: fixing math.

[Lady Ashe]

And you can fuse a persona that nulls everything but Almighty in the maingame, IIRC.

Doesn't that require skill inheritance?

[DjinnAndTonic]

@ Tal: Fair enough. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by people's reactions to Minato. I just wanted to share my views on the subject and open up some discourse on it. I'm still not sure I'd allow Minato access to all Persona under my views, since I'm not sure whether to liken Persona to equipment or skills yet, or whether I should include FES in my own view. However, if Minato -would- be allowed access to Armageddon+initiative, then yes, he seems to be a pretty unrankable Bluelike.

As for the math: Cmdr, did you decide to not include Minato in the average? You'd think his damage would inflate the average significantly? As is, he's... 7x Average? What's the average kill point of endgame enemies?

-Djinn

[Cmdr_King]

I deleted him from the listed average because I was making an Armageddon average, and incuding him twice would be silly.  For the three turn average he was assumed to be dealing 9999+193+193 (Armageddon plus 2 Thantos physicals, his damage in topic's average).
I don't honesty hold with using moves like Armageddon in averages even when calcualting the damage of those moves, but that's clearly what Monkey was referring to so there it is.  It's still Fate Storm-tastic.

[Talaysen]

Doesn't that require skill inheritance?

Yes.  Don't think it was incredibly difficult to do, but if you don't allow that then whatever.
'
Even without it, he can null various combinations of attacks, enough to screw up lots of people.  I don't know exactly which so I can't say how effective it is other than kneejerking "damn effective".

@ Tal: Fair enough. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by people's reactions to Minato. I just wanted to share my views on the subject and open up some discourse on it. I'm still not sure I'd allow Minato access to all Persona under my views, since I'm not sure whether to liken Persona to equipment or skills yet, or whether I should include FES in my own view. However, if Minato -would- be allowed access to Armageddon+initiative, then yes, he seems to be a pretty unrankable Bluelike.

Well it's not like other interps have never been considered.  It's just that.. most of them don't fit most peoples views.  For the record, we've talked about this in chat before the topic came up to, so you may have missed that stuff.

Also, I'd view Personas more like equipment, especially since uh, they HAVE skills.  And stats.  But this is a weird case and... I can sorta see the argument for them being skill-like but I don't agree with it until someone can convince me otherwise.


Also, CK forgot to mention there that Armageddon's damage is ITD, so even Jade and Myria may fall to it since they have badass defenses, making their durability seem higher in general.

[Tide]

I think if you allow the HP draining skills, the damage goes up a bit? He has God Hand to use in that case (and with Arms Master, he's not losing all that much HP per cast) and certainly bumps his 3 turn damage up a bit.

Regardless, Pyro already mentioned this, but Minato has loads of other ways of getting that turn without initiative (Enduring Soul/Unshaken Will/blocking damage with various Personae). So even without it, he's still pretty damn ridiculous (then considering this is also in a game where most items used in battle are unique to Minato (ie:he's the only person that is going to use them)....yeah).

[Starphoenix das Helpoemer]

If you take out Armageddon from damage averages, he still has other Mixraids that do considerable damage (I believe Thunder Call is one of them). He also has a highly effective Charm manuever (Dreamfest for Succubus + Incubus), not to mention invulnerability for a turn (Odin + Valkyrie and Vishnu + Ananta). Aigis wishes she had access to Mixraids (Or Social Links for that matter).

It should be a given that Minato doesn't get skill inheritance. It's far too much of a variable and we're already having a hard enough time narrowing him down on his basics. Besides, he's still bull**** without them. A similar answer on Item usage... we don't need to make him cheesier with the added benefits of Soma (Full HP/MP restoration) or... *shudder* Plume of Dusk (Revival after death). Otherwise, look forward to the following situation: Armageddon > Soma > Armageddon > Soma...

As it stands, however, if we do in fact rank Minato, who exactly would be able to give him a run for his money (given all things are equal and voters aren't simply pandering to fan favorites)? Yuna... maybe? Lady? Just a thought...

...

Mitsuru for Heavy! Mind Charged Megidolaonn FTW!!

[DjinnAndTonic]

People that might beat Minato..,

Without Armegeddon and/or Initiative, there's quite a few. But since the trend is to allow Armageddon and initiative...

Maybe no one? Myria, Jade, Ghaleon, Xorn, Lady, Lambda, Belial, AtL Invincibility users, Kefka, and Yuna seem like the likely candidates., but most of them are pretty easily taken out by Minato having initiative.  Maybe Zio (?!) if you allow his initial invincibility! *chuckles* If Armageddon can't kill multipart bosses, then maybe Profound Darkness? 

Even if Minato doesn't have initiative, he still has access to 'null everything' Persona without inheirtance, doesn't he?

Without Armageddon, though, the list becomes signifcantly longer. He can no longer OHKO most of Godlike, even -with- gamebest damage. He still has plenty of damage-nulling, stat-boosting, and status-inducing nastiness at his disposal, plus initiative.

Doesn't strike me as -completely- unrankable, but he's Ghaleon/Myria/Yuna-level  or higher.

-Djinn

[Ultradude]

'Null everything' requires inheritance; I think that strong against all, or nulling three or four attack types at best are what he gets without it. Still, Lambda's got Blue Destiny to null Armageddon, but... I'm thinking that Minato might have something that still beats him. Um... would his initiative beat initiative moves like Overdrive?

Suffice to say, Minato seems pretty DNR if even his potential spoilers might not beat him. Nyx Avatar... eh, still waiting to see how the invincibility thing goes down, otherwise it's not too bad. Minato though... ew. With initiative and full Persona access, he's probably just about the most unbeatable PC ever, unless of course you allow multi-part boss HP buffering, and even then most multi-part bosses fall apart to other strategies, I'm thinking. There are reasonable interps to rank him under, but plenty of people would have to give him special treatment for it to work, and a character that's bluelike to half the DL probably doesn't belong.

[Pyro]

Minato is such a mess in the DL that we aren't going to rank him. There is no way in hell we'll get 66% approval for a character considered Bluelike by a significant portion of us. If you want to argue that he COULD be beatable then that is your fancy. You're not convincing people to change interps just to make him rankable. And CERTAINLY not enough people to rank him. It just ain't happening.

Best to give up on that. The big argument remaining for him is how he should be taken into the averages for the other PCs.

[Starphoenix das Helpoemer]

Simple, don't. As is, Minato throws the averages WAY off with a 9999 attack in a crowd that struggles to break 300 or so. You'd get better damage results if you take him out of the equation of rankings. Otherwise, you'd be getting far shoddier damage results (though I guess Fuuka would sort of help counter-balance... but you know, not by much).

But this is assuming we don't rank Minato, which may in fact be the safer option. Nyx Avatar is a beast, but not totally undefeatable (the invincibility is infrequent and lasts about a turn, while Night Queen I think is still blockable with Tome of the Void/Unshakable Will except for the Poison). I'm also pretty sure that Armageddon doesn't go through form chains...

But also, let's consider this: Armageddon costs Minato's entire SP stock when used. After that, he needs a way of regenerating SP to do anything else spell related. Against form chains, he has a harder time, because he can't simply just spam Armageddon.

If you take away his initiative, dare I say, Yuna and him actually have an interesting duel... that would take forever.

[hinode]

Idly, I assume Minato's stats will change (probably significantly) depending on what Persona he equips?

If so, I'd throw him out of the averages entirely.  The cast's decently sized without him, so there won't be any average skewing.

Also, Mitsuru would probably be Heavy if she only took 50% extra damage from her weakness.  :/

[Talaysen]

If you take out Armageddon from damage averages, he still has other Mixraids that do considerable damage (I believe Thunder Call is one of them). He also has a highly effective Charm manuever (Dreamfest for Succubus + Incubus), not to mention invulnerability for a turn (Odin + Valkyrie and Vishnu + Ananta). Aigis wishes she had access to Mixraids (Or Social Links for that matter).

I don't think he even NEEDS fusion spells to have nutsy damage even.  Still, yeah, he's got some pretty nutsy fusion spells to play around with.

Also, S.Links don't really do much DL-wise.  Unless I'm mistaken and Aigis can't access the max S.Link personas?  Thought she could.

It should be a given that Minato doesn't get skill inheritance. It's far too much of a variable and we're already having a hard enough time narrowing him down on his basics. Besides, he's still bull**** without them. A similar answer on Item usage... we don't need to make him cheesier with the added benefits of Soma (Full HP/MP restoration) or... *shudder* Plume of Dusk (Revival after death). Otherwise, look forward to the following situation: Armageddon > Soma > Armageddon > Soma...

Skill inheritence seems like it SHOULD be allowed, honestly.  Again, it's something unique to him, not hard to do in most cases, not obscure, and even a big factor in-game.  Now, how MUCH skill inheritence to allow is a different story.  One generation?  Three?  It's annoying to do, yes, but it's something that he has legal access to.

But it's definitely not an issue I'd really push, since it is such a pain in the ass to consider, like you said.

For items... I imagine he's going to get the same treatment as other mains who are the only ones who can use items, i.e., not allowed them.  I'm not sure how I feel on them yet, myself.

As it stands, however, if we do in fact rank Minato, who exactly would be able to give him a run for his money (given all things are equal and voters aren't simply pandering to fan favorites)? Yuna... maybe? Lady? Just a thought...

Maybe no one? Myria, Jade, Ghaleon, Xorn, Lady, Lambda, Belial, AtL Invincibility users, Kefka, and Yuna seem like the likely candidates., but most of them are pretty easily taken out by Minato having initiative.  Maybe Zio (?!) if you allow his initial invincibility! *chuckles* If Armageddon can't kill multipart bosses, then maybe Profound Darkness? 

Myria and Jade have arguments for surviving Armageddon, but I don't think I buy them.  And even then, Minato can null their big damages, so he may just slugfest them down REGARDLESS (remember, he has variety, so he doesn't HAVE to just win with Armageddon).  Ghaleon gets eaten by initiative, Xorn doesn't kill before Minato goes even if he was average speed, Lady he just Armageddons and tanks the deathcounter, Lambda... he probably just beats in a slugfest I think?  Belial goes first and 4D Pockets him if you see high CTB speed > TB initiative and don't allow Minato to block 4D Pocket somehow (I think he had stuff to block status?  Dunno, but there's always a Homonculus argument or something), AtL Invincibility users get owned by initiative or Minato just outtanks their MP, Kefka gets owned by initiative or nulling his big damage (Ultima is low HP, right?), Yuna also gets owned by initiative (though I think he loses here without, doubt he can beat aeon parade in a slugfest), Zio only wins if you let him win against everything ever due to the invincibility since Minato can just wait and smite later.  >.>  If you allow HP buffering, there's proof Armageddon doesn't own it in-game (Nyx Avatar), he doesn't OHKO Profound Darkness, but he probably just outslugs it anyways.

So yeah, one person beats him and only under fairly generous interp against him in that match.

'Null everything' requires inheritance; I think that strong against all, or nulling three or four attack types at best are what he gets without it. Still, Lambda's got Blue Destiny to null Armageddon, but... I'm thinking that Minato might have something that still beats him. Um... would his initiative beat initiative moves like Overdrive?

To me, Minato's initiative is pretty weak.  I'd probably say it goes after every other initiative I can think of (and if you think it beats CTB initiative I just hit you with a teddy bear in the face).

Which means that Timelord probably beats Minato, assuming he has some non-elemental damage that doesn't suck.

Best to give up on that. The big argument remaining for him is how he should be taken into the averages for the other PCs.

Simple, don't. As is, Minato throws the averages WAY off with a 9999 attack in a crowd that struggles to break 300 or so. You'd get better damage results if you take him out of the equation of rankings. Otherwise, you'd be getting far shoddier damage results (though I guess Fuuka would sort of help counter-balance... but you know, not by much).

I disagree.  He's a PC just like everyone else, and thus should be taken into the averages.  However, since I don't use a 3-turn and don't use OPB moves in averages, he doesn't wreck the damage curve that much anyways.

And haha putting Fuuka in averages.  >.>

But this is assuming we don't rank Minato, which may in fact be the safer option. Nyx Avatar is a beast, but not totally undefeatable (the invincibility is infrequent and lasts about a turn, while Night Queen I think is still blockable with Tome of the Void/Unshakable Will except for the Poison). I'm also pretty sure that Armageddon doesn't go through form chains...

Moonless Gown lasts four three of Nyx Avatar's turns, but he doubleacts, so it's... 1.5.  And under some interps he can just spam it (I've seen him do it in-game, so).  And you're right, Armageddon doesn't go through form chains, provided they're HP buffered (which most are I believe).

But also, let's consider this: Armageddon costs Minato's entire SP stock when used. After that, he needs a way of regenerating SP to do anything else spell related. Against form chains, he has a harder time, because he can't simply just spam Armageddon.

Harder time, yes, but not a difficult time in several cases.  He can still null any type of damage except non-elemental, and generally multiple at once.  He has fullhealing, good damage, buffs, etc.  He's still damn good in a slugfest regardless, and beats out most form chains.

Also to note, Jenna beats Minato with form chain.  I guess that's three people who spoil Minato.

If you take away his initiative, dare I say, Yuna and him actually have an interesting duel... that would take forever.

I... think Anima has some crazy non-elemental damage, so she just overkills him with that (or heal locks).  Though if not, you're right, that does take awhile.  Does Minato's SP hold out against aeon parade?

Idly, I assume Minato's stats will change (probably significantly) depending on what Persona he equips?

Minato's base stats are determined solely by which persona he equips.  HP/SP are unchanged, and equipment stats are obviously unchanged, but that's it.

[Ultradude]

I disagree.  He's a PC just like everyone else, and thus should be taken into the averages.  However, since I don't use a 3-turn and don't use OPB moves in averages, he doesn't wreck the damage curve that much anyways.

Stat topic uses Thanatos. I'm thinking that for raw stats, an average of his max S. Link personas might work? That might be too much work just to get stats for Minato, but it'd represent him on average fairly well. Damage, I agree on tossing OPB moves. Still leaves a lot of moves (Ragnarok) which hoist the damage average up a lot. I think I like using Thanatos damage here, for all that it isn't... a perfect reflection of his dominance in game, it's still solid. Granted, I think some people tend to throw out stuff like Rolf's Megid from damage averages to keep the entire rest of the cast from being below average? The problem here being how many Personas Minato can choose from, and deciding which attack to use. Ick.

I... think Anima has some crazy non-elemental damage, so she just overkills him with that (or heal locks).  Though if not, you're right, that does take awhile.  Does Minato's SP hold out against aeon parade?

Pain should OHKO cleanly, and it's typing isn't really distinct. If it wasn't for the initiative, Yuna would win pretty easy with that.

[Talaysen]

Granted, I think some people tend to throw out stuff like Rolf's Megid from damage averages to keep the entire rest of the cast from being below average? The problem here being how many Personas Minato can choose from, and deciding which attack to use. Ick.

I hope those people also toss out SH1 Yuri's damage as well, since that also makes everyone else below average.  I disagree with that view, but I can see the merits of it.

And yeah, I'd assume a lesser move that can be spammed for Minato's damage in the average.  Not sure what that is yet, though.

[Starphoenix das Helpoemer]

The thing is, Minato's damage is so much farther outside the norm that it breaks the averages over his knee. Though I can see your point in removing other grossly outdamaging characters from averages. Perhaps instead of taking account of the mean, we should take into account the median.

Me mentioning S. Links for Aigis was simply just me bemoaning the fact that I have to work to get my Persona up those levels to get their skills instead of fusioning and getting free experience for being nice to the fat kid or whatnot. She can still get the Max S. Link Persona, in fact, she may have an easier time of it, since she doesn't have to do cross, pentagram, or hexagram spreads to get them.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If Minato's not ranked, doesn't that preclude him from the damage averages in and of itself? I mean, do people include all the FE characters in the FE averages? What about S4? Do people include Monster damage in SaGa averages?

-Djinn

[Tonfa]

Just because a character is not ranked doesn't mean they don't exist in their game and in the averages. Unless you want to hype FWs having average stats and average damage.

[Ultradude]

If Minato's not ranked, doesn't that preclude him from the damage averages in and of itself? I mean, do people include all the FE characters in the FE averages? What about S4? Do people include Monster damage in SaGa averages?

-Djinn

Actually people do include all FE and suiko characters in the averages regarding rankings. Otherwise, things can end up looking pretty skewed in one direction or another, depending on which particular characters get ranked. Can't speak for SaGa, since I don't pay any attention to it.

[hinode]

Minato's base stats are determined solely by which persona he equips.  HP/SP are unchanged, and equipment stats are obviously unchanged, but that's it.

This sounds like a pretty good reason to throw him out from the averages entirely.  Trying to even pin a specific set of stats for him sounds like a mess, and since he's not getting ranked it'd simply matters greatly with no real risk of skewing the averages.

[VySaika]

Minato's base stats are determined solely by which persona he equips.  HP/SP are unchanged, and equipment stats are obviously unchanged, but that's it.

This sounds like a pretty good reason to throw him out from the averages entirely.  Trying to even pin a specific set of stats for him sounds like a mess, and since he's not getting ranked it'd simply matters greatly with no real risk of skewing the averages.

My thoughts exactly, here. For someone who can change his stats mid-battle no less, I really think he should just be kept out.