Season 45, Week 3 - Myria wants to be Ike's friend. Greil shudders.

[RadLink5]

I use move/range for Disgaea, never really considered it for FE until now since it technically has a speed stat that doesn't just amount to evasion, but yeah, if FE speed doesn't mean shit for initiative then I guess move/range it is.

And as for Ike's SSBB form, Aether still hits pretty hard, plus his normal physical combo and forward smash are just devastating near-OHKO attacks. Also two minutes before access to Great Aether is way off, I'd say 30 seconds at most, which is still probably a bit too long unless he stalls with shield/rolling, but even then it's too risky for him.

Uh, not that it matters, but it's a fun argument...

[Twilkitri]

FE characters can't counter status spells in-game.

What is with this thing so many people seem to have about deferring status spells to only the effectively item-cast ones when FE (as a whole. Some individual games don't.) has pure and impure status spell weapons that are counterable given a weapon with sufficient range.

[SageAcrin]

FE characters can't counter status spells in-game.

What is with this thing so many people seem to have about deferring status spells to only the effectively item-cast ones when FE (as a whole. Some individual games don't.) has pure and impure status spell weapons that are counterable given a weapon with sufficient range.

Going by series is bad.

You can make all *sorts* of weird precedents with Final Fantasy games like that, just for starters.

If the games later made a design change, it means they wanted that design change for a reason. If a game lacks counterable status, there was a reason for it; If it has one, same thing. *Shrugs.*

As for "effectively item-cast", you can make that same spurious argument for all of FE's magic, so again...*Shrugs.* >_>

[Twilkitri]

Not having gotten around to playing FE10 yet I might be making a fool of myself, but that's not really any different from usual so whatever. As far as I'm aware, the relevant game in question does in fact have an impure status spell in Valaura, so it's not a matter of a mechanic from a different game in the series in this case.

One could argue not to carry that back to FE9 if they don't like to vote on FE10, or say it doesn't count because it's not a pure status spell, of course.



Nah, if all FE magic is itemcast then all weapon usage at all in it is itemcast since it's run off the same command. Actually I'd probably prefer it in-dl that way >_>


While I'm here...

Heavy

Garnet Til Alexandros (FF9) vs Ike (FE9) - Garnet, I'm currently thinking. How fortunate that I don't consider counters to exist so I'm not personally affected by my nattering.

Middle

Menardi (GS) vs Legault (FE7) - Menardi. Nowhere near sad enough boss for Legault to have a chance.
Bartholomew Fatima (XG) vs Jean (BoF2) - Dunno offhand. I think I'm gonna go in general with giving XG characters formchoice between foot or gear with corresponding averages et al for each, which kiiiiiinda goes against one of my precepts but on the other hand it's exactly the same way I currently allow formchoice between separate games, the major key being that I don't allow a foot character to get into their gear. In any case that means this currently boils down to whether or not I let an in-gear character get hit by instant death, which I dunno offhand.

Light

Red Wizard (FF1) vs Jun (VP1) - Don't remember Jun well enough offhand. I'll have to look him up at some point.

[Grefter]

Garnet Til Alexandros (FF9) vs Ike (FE9) - Ike.  Aether after Aether wins this.  Thanks God for his SSBB form. 

I'm going to assume this is humor, but Ike's Aether in SSBB doesn't restore his HP nor halve enemy defense, and is also telegraphed from a mile away, so yeah, that's not a winning strategy.  Great Aether would work, of course, but a Smash Ball isn't coming out until 2 minutes into the match or so, so that's a no go.  More generally, Ike isn't particularly evasive in SSBB, and SSBB mini hits the entire screen anyway, so this is good news for Garnet's attempts to Mini Ike.  And a blinded Ike (you can't see the screen?) who already has bad recovery trying to jump back on?  Garnet gets to actually KO someone with her racket attack, since Ike ignominiously falls off despite the low damage.

Then there's the fact that in the world of SSBB, you probably have to take Eidolon summoning animations literally.  Yeah.  Don't mess with Garnet in Brawl.

Awesome, now I have a reason to not vote this week other than forgetting and being lazy.  I can do it just to not associate myself in anyway with this even as a joke.

Edit - To clarify, while that is a good well reasoned response Snowfire, the fact that Smash even fucking comes up anything in DL voting even as a fucking joke is disgusting and sickening (RANK SNAKE HYPE NEEDS TO BURN ENDLESSLY IN HELL WHILE BEING RAPED WITH A NAILBAT).

[RadLink5]

Yeah seriously, don't rank Snake, he's got terrible vote splitting from his multiple forms. His MGS1 form is like a High Heavy, his temp form in MGS2 is like Low Middle, his guest form in MGS2 has gotta be a Godlike, his SSBB form translates to about a High Middle I think, and I don't even know about his MGS 4 form.

Rank Meta Knight instead.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Rank Waddle-Dee. Obvious choice from SSBB.

-Djinn

[Grefter]

You miss the part where he was ranked in the RPGP.  By public vote.  This was a very very bad thing.  Snake is DL relevant.

[RadLink5]

Searching RPGP brought up "The Religion, Politics and Globalization Program | at UC Berkeley". So yes, if Waddle Dee or Meta Knight were ranked there, that could be a problem. Meta Knight's extreme leftism makes it hard to hold a conversation with him, and Waddle Dee's rabid devotion to religion makes him easy to offend.

In short, what's the RPGP? (Also Snake gains more HP as his game advances, hence leveling up, therefore it's an RPG. Rank Snake)

[Shale]

The RPGP (RPG Playoffs) is where this whole Duelling League thing came from. Same general idea, different people (and much less of them - two or three, instead of our cast of thousands) running the show. They shut down, we picked up the concept and started a new site around it.

[Grefter]

(Also Snake gains more HP as his game advances, hence leveling up, therefore it's an RPG. Rank Snake)

Funny thing, that was the exact reasoning people gave for why MGS was an RPG there as well.

RPGP was fairly large part of the site history, so yeah.

[Shale]

Dante gains maximum health as the game goes on and learns new techniques from points gained through killing enemies. RANK DEVIL MAY CRY.

[Pyro]

[blatant Gwendolyn fanboyism]RANK ODIN SPHERE [/blatant Gwendolyn fanboyism]

Anywho. Voting Ike. I oversold Garnet's durability by a bit.

[Rozalia]

(Also Snake gains more HP as his game advances, hence leveling up, therefore it's an RPG. Rank Snake)

Snake is strong with his massive Hp, OHKO damage and his powerful blink status that happens whenever he is hit but he has nothing on gray fox. You know Gray Fox the one who has immunity to all attacks but punchs and kicks.

While I was joking there I'm wondering, doesn't Snake have a rpgish appearance in acid? Okay there are certain spoilers (Play the second one and you'll know) but hey its somewhat valid.

[Ultradude]

Searching RPGP brought up "The Religion, Politics and Globalization Program | at UC Berkeley". So yes, if Waddle Dee or Meta Knight were ranked there, that could be a problem. Meta Knight's extreme leftism makes it hard to hold a conversation with him, and Waddle Dee's rabid devotion to religion makes him easy to offend.

In short, what's the RPGP? (Also Snake gains more HP as his game advances, hence leveling up, therefore it's an RPG. Rank Snake)

http://rpgdl.com/RPGPLog/Log.html

It's under the DL's records category. Some good reading, some :psyduck: rankings and matches.

Snake discussion is horribly off topic.

Still wondering what's up with some FF9 status spells apparently hitting MDef and others hitting evade, unless it's just a weird Garland thing.

[Pyro]

I think they all hit evade, in-game. Well, FF9 Evade is more of a status resistance stat since I don't think any of the ordinary attack spells check it, but it still works.

Also: In the absence of evade, a healthy number (most?) take the attack as smacking into evade from other games. This is admittedly a huge gray area but as long as you are consistent about how you take things you should be fine.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

There's a magic evade stat in FF9 that exists almost only specifically to check status resistance, yeah.

EDIT: The big thing on Ike vs. Garnet seems to be the whole "she goes first and isn't OHKOed" thing. Since the evade (Ike evade was just modest, from stat topic recollection?) probably reduces turn one status to turn two, she thanks the heavens for getting a second shot at it. If this was the likes of Eirika or Tana, though, this would be a different song. But then, Eirika and Tana just one-turn Garnet if she doesn't cast Protect, and gets 2HKOed if she does. >_>

[SnowFire]

Hehe.  That is funny; didn't know Snake was ranked.  Actually, I guess I did see the RPGP once - I remember Snake vs. Terra, which I assumed was at GameFAQs or something.  One of the rare matches where Snake clearly loses even given concealment, thanks to Merton/Ultima hype.  (Snake vs. Celes?  Celes Vanishes...  Snake puts on Thermal Goggles and snipes her out anyway.)  I see some familiar commenters poo-poohing Snake in the comments...  (though DarkHolyElf apparently hypes Jet as having an instant death attack?  Maybe he was referring to someone else...)

Rozalia: Snake HP hype?!  Since we're already in the realm of "it makes sense to me," Snake is either average HP (take cast averages seriously) or pathetic OHKO bait (semi-realistic character vs. wholly unrealistic characters).  Of course, Snake's HP doesn't matter that much, as his dueling worth ENTIRELY depends on whether you see the arena as a mostly empty dueling ground, or some kind of messy facility or jungle with plenty of places to hide.

I will say that as far as not-really-RPG characters who might be fun in Not Ranked...  Super Metroid's Samus.  She's got a smidge more than average PC HP (PCHP + Reserve Tanks), and arguably her power suit gives her ridiculous defense that quarters most incoming damage (not if you average defense too, but Samus does feel very "tanky" in game).  She's got a beam attack that is arguably ITD (wave goes through walls?  Though the ITD would be factored into damage averages and actually be a liability against low-defense people) and optionally ice elemental, and can be charged.  She also has a Xorn-like Death Knell lite game by dropping Super Bombs to set up big damage two turns or so later (followed by a bevy of Super Missiles or Charged Shots).  Plus, she gets one shot of full healing from the super-bomb healing trick if she doesn't already have a super bomb out.  Probably Low Godlike; not a fast blitzer and status bait, but a good tank.

[Monkeyfinger]

For Garnet to not be one-turned by Ike you have to let normal speed be a factor in FE doubling calculations, which Pyro has stopped doing in favor of seeing everyone as average FE speed (and more people should do.)

[RadLink5]

I don't think the argument is that Ike can't one-turn her at this point, I'm pretty sure it's "She blinds him on turn 1, so she gets enough time to Protect/Mini". Which the more I think about it, the more I disagree with. She blinds him on turn 1, he only hits her once, she can survive one more hit. Next turn she can protect, which means she can take two hits, he hits her once, she fails to mini next turn, one of his two attacks hit her again, she dies. Or she can just go for Mini on turn 2 and skip the protect, but then she fails to Mini and he kills her anyway. Unless you see ~50% status as hitting on the first attempt.

[Dark Holy Elf]

No doubles = no one-turning, and that still seems a rather common argument to me. Presumably he does 2HKO, yeah (he does about 45 per shot to average, and Garnet is... kinda frailish, especially if you factor in HP+10 for the fighters).

For Garnet to not be one-turned by Ike you have to let normal speed be a factor in FE doubling calculations, which Pyro has stopped doing in favor of seeing everyone as average FE speed (and more people should do.)

You could also view the threshold as 4 instead of 3.5, since Ike is only +3.8 from average.

But anyway, I strongly disagree with making everyone else average speed for doubling. This grossly exaggerates the difference between +3.5 and +3.4 average speed in the DL (or +4 and +3.9 if that's how you roll). Use -something- to represent that sliding scale, and speed seems the most logical. You could also use evade I suppose (since evade is directly tied to AS and all).

[Dhyerwolf]

Also of note, Garnet is opting for defense in this fight. She's not maximing damage, so she's going for Robe of Lords, which is plus 5 defense. She doesn't need MDef, so she'd opt for Adaman Hat which gives her another 3. If you factor in crits/effects that go off before turn 3 with a 50% threshold, two normal Ike attacks don't even take her out.

[RadLink5]

Well that just doesn't seem fair in the least. Don't let Fire Emblem people use their AS/Speed for initiative, only doubling, but let their opponents use their speed for both initiative and preventing doubling. If Fire Emblem speed isn't initiative-related, it's essentially a different stat with the same name, and thus a stat not in most other games. And what do we do to a cast that doesn't have a certain stat? Make them all average for that stat. So yeah, Ike going second but doubling Garnet makes sense to me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Don't let Fire Emblem people use their AS/Speed for initiative, only doubling

AS is already a very powerful stat, and has no effect on initiative in-game.

let their opponents use their speed for both initiative and preventing doubling.

The opponent needs SOMETHING to check against doubling, or you get that large problem with 3.4 vs. 3.5 I talked about. Doesn't that bother you at all?

[RadLink5]

The opponent needs SOMETHING to check against doubling, or you get that large problem with 3.4 vs. 3.5 I talked about. Doesn't that bother you at all?

Not particularly. Seems to make more sense than just saying "Let's screw over all the FE characters". AS doesn't effect initiative in-game because there is no initiative in-game. Player goes first and moves the units in whatever order they want. Likewise, FF9 speed doesn't prevent double-acting because there is no double acting or AS stat in FF9. I just can't understand why it's alright to give FF9 speed an effect it never had in-game, but not alright to do the same for FE speed.