Season 45, Week 3 - Myria wants to be Ike's friend. Greil shudders.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The main reason I object to giving FE speed that extra effect is because it's better suited to attack range, the stat that actually affects who attacks first in FE. If not for that I'd be pretty okay with FE speed affecting initiative.

I -really- object to treating all other casts as average FE speed for reasons I've already laid out, and find the lack of caring about this from some people just baffling. Fractions of a point should not have that effect on a dueller's overall performance (individual fights, sure, that's expected). It makes Ike himself go from near Middle to near Godlike, depending on whether you consider 3.8 good enough. Just blah.

Incidentally, if you give both FE and FF9 each other's effects on speed, doesn't Garnet win?

[RadLink5]

No, unless I've forgotten in the two or three days since I looked at the stat topics, Ike's just a smidge higher than his game's average speed (percentage-wise) than Garnet, thus he goes first, doesn't double, she blinds him, he misses his next attack, she misses her Mini casting, he fries her on his third turn. Unless you don't see Ike 2HKOing her, then she wins, but hell, she wins under any speed interp if you don't see Ike 2HKOing her.

[VySaika]

Elf: Question for you and others who see a non-FE character's speed effecting whether they get doubled by an FE character or not.

Do you also allow a non-FE character who is significantly faster then an FE opponent to FE-double the FE character?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

From my recollection, Elfboy does. So do I.

[Talaysen]

To be honest, it seems like it makes most sense to have FE AS check evade in other games, since... AS affects an FE's character's evade a hell of a lot more than their CTB speed (which is not at all).

[VySaika]

From my recollection, Elfboy does. So do I.

So you see a fast non-FE character as being able to CTB double AND FE-double a slower FE character? Or do you throw out the CTB doubling vs FE and just have any doubling that goes on being FE style?

To give an example, would you see turn order for Jude vs Oswin going:

Jude(gets 2 actions because Oswin gets FE-doubled), Oswin, Jude(2 actions), Jude(2 actions)?

or just

Jude(2 actions), Oswin, Jude(2 actions), Oswin, Jude(2 actions), Oswin, etc, etc?

Myself, I can't agree with letting fast non-FE characters get CTB doubles AND FE-doubles. That's doublecrediting thier speed to a point where it's just silly.

[Grefter]

[Seems to make more sense than just saying "Let's screw over all the FE characters".

If a consistent logical interpretation screws over a cast then it sucks to be the cast, not the fault of the interpretation.

FE does have initiative effects, player turns have it.  FE beats tie breaks against average speed, in all other ways they are all average.

Edit - I see you there extra page and I mock you in your general direction.  Point still stands about to bad, so sad if a cast gets screwed over by DL format.


Edit 2 -

No, unless I've forgotten in the two or three days since I looked at the stat topics, Ike's just a smidge higher than his game's average speed (percentage-wise) than Garnet, thus he goes first, doesn't double, she blinds him, he misses his next attack, she misses her Mini casting, he fries her on his third turn. Unless you don't see Ike 2HKOing her, then she wins, but hell, she wins under any speed interp if you don't see Ike 2HKOing her.

She heals there, doesn't go for mini straight away.  If she was going to try that there is no reason to cast blind.  If you see her not getting killed on Ikes turn she Minis on turns he misses and heals on turns he hits.

[RadLink5]

My logic concludes that giving FF9's speed stat an ability it never had doesn't make sense, therefore I'm not going to let it stop Ike from doubling.

She heals there, doesn't go for mini straight away.  If she was going to try that there is no reason to cast blind.  If you see her not getting killed on Ikes turn she Minis on turns he misses and heals on turns he hits.

Oh right, totally forgot healing there. But then again, Ike either crits or Aethers (which one depends on your speed interp) at some point if she gives Ike another turn, and she's not outliving either one.

[Cmdr_King]

Gate: That's precisely the cause behind the whole "non-FE characters are average FE speed" trend.  The two speeds were so incompatible that treating it as the same stat lead to just completely bizarre results like that.  Forcing speed to act as CTB speed, or shoving CTB speed into FE's system, were both non-options as alternatives, so the next logical treatment was considering FE speed a completely different stat from initiative speed (and thus, characters that don't use that speed are average in it, the same way FE and other characters that lack initiative speed).  It's not a perfect solution, because Elfboy is absolutely right.  Something like, say Rennac always doubling while Ephraim never does is jsut completely weird (Eph is something like 3.2 points above average, Rennac is... 3.9?  4.1?  Just barely makes it) and inflates one while completley ignoring that 3 above average speed means Ephraim doubles on a very regular basis.  Just... well, it's a simpler system that's easier to work with and is still less completely bizarre than other potential interps.  Also has the benefit of symmetry, but that's neither here nor there.

[RadLink5]

You could always just go by who was consistently doubling in game, but I think interps that don't involve averages are usually frowned on, so meh.

[Talaysen]

There's also the option of taking PC doubling against enemy average AS, and then putting the resulting damage into the damage average (you should probably do the last part ANYWAY).

[Rozalia]

Rozalia: Snake HP hype?!  Since we're already in the realm of "it makes sense to me," Snake is either average HP (take cast averages seriously) or pathetic OHKO bait (semi-realistic character vs. wholly unrealistic characters).  Of course, Snake's HP doesn't matter that much, as his dueling worth ENTIRELY depends on whether you see the arena as a mostly empty dueling ground, or some kind of messy facility or jungle with plenty of places to hide.

Snake is above average due to the existance of meryl who has what, half his hp? Also Snake....semi realistic? This man can survive giant mecha stomping on him, gunfire, missles, guard armies, lasers even. To top things off he restores even the most fatal of wounds with simple RATIONS! Very much like rpg characters who after getting hit by a fatal blow simply potion it away. It is very much clear that Snake is an rpg character stuck in a action game.

[RadLink5]

So then MGS1 Snake is 2xPCHP, and since rations are exclusive to him, he has healing. Not to mention some of his heavier artillery is just overkill compared to temp Meryl's damage, not to mention some invisibility. Godlike? I'm surprised, it's actually better than his Guest form in MGS2 with the 1.25xPCHP and game-best damage.

Oh god, I've gotta stop, I'm so close to doing MGS stat topics.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You can all go die now. (Also scaling against temps = no. Item healing is also no, uniqueness doesn't matter there.)

There's also the option of taking PC doubling against enemy average AS, and then putting the resulting damage into the damage average (you should probably do the last part ANYWAY).

That's fair, although friendly reminder that if you do that, you also have to scale durability to account for who is doubled. Pretty much makes FE into a less damaging, more durable cast. Do that if you want, but I find it a bit weird personally. I don't really have a problem with it, though.

Oh right, totally forgot healing there. But then again, Ike either crits or Aethers (which one depends on your speed interp) at some point if she gives Ike another turn, and she's not outliving either one.

Ike attack
Garnet Blind
Ike attack
Garnet heal
Ike attack
Garnet Mini
Ike attack (miss)
Garnet Mini

He hits her twice, Aether sure as heck isn't turn 2, and his crit rate is laughable. Granted, I don't think that strategy is such a great idea, and I'd opt for Protect instead myself, since it can't miss, and doesn't rely on Ike missing. Only lasts two turns, but oddly, that's good enough here. Makes Aether less mockable as an argument, granted, for all that I still wouldn't see it activating in time.

Bleh to the fact that Ike apparently only wins in the single most favourable speed interp for him, and the one I furthermore find the least fair.

[Talaysen]

That's fair, although friendly reminder that if you do that, you also have to scale durability to account for who is doubled. Pretty much makes FE into a less damaging, more durable cast. Do that if you want, but I find it a bit weird personally. I don't really have a problem with it, though.

Oh right, yeah, HP is halved for people who are doubled, of course.  Don't really find it all that weird myself.  Double-acting seems more of a Assault Buster-like thing than taking against CTB speed.  But eh.  Still like the evade option better anyways.

[RadLink5]

Aether is like ~25% chance, and I never said it's turn 2. It's turn 3 or 4.

But let me see if I can summarize:
-If you hold Garnet's speed against Ike's doubling and don't give him initiative, she smashes.
-If you hold Garnet's speed against Ike's doubling but give him initiative, headache, but Garnet seems to have the advantage.
-If you don't hold Garnet's speed against Ike's doubling and give him initiative, totally unfair Ike blowout.
-If you don't hold Garnet's speed against Ike's doubling but don't give him initiative, headache, but Ike seems to have the advantage.

Pick your poison.

[SnowFire]

Re FF9 speed: Yeah, FF9 speed (like many ATB speeds) isn't as good as it seems due to wait-times and animations and the like.  I'd use it for initiative, but would damp it way down for double turning, meaning Garnet is actually only mildly above average.  Maybe Ike doubles after all, even holding doubles against FF9 speed?  Interesting, I'd forgotten that.

Gatewalker: So you see a fast non-FE character as being able to CTB double AND FE-double a slower FE character? Or do you throw out the CTB doubling vs FE and just have any doubling that goes on being FE style?

Not aimed at me, but absolutely.  Being slow in FE sucks and means you get doubled on any attacks, and being fast in a CT based system rules and gives you extra actions to double with.  The downside is that doubling only works on physical attacks, at least to me.  So Jude can double his physical against Oswin all the time, but it'll just tink anyway; not sure I'd let Jude double-Assault Buster Oswin constantly, as a lot of special moves become very strange if doubled.  If it's a grey area on damage-inflicting skills, it's clearly black for anything else - status attacks don't get double chances against slow characters in-game, IIRC.

Rozalia, Re Meryl: Yeah, scaling against nigh-helpless guests is definitely a no-go (AtL4 cast is suddenly thrilled about Lillia bringing down the averages?), so Meryl is irrelevant and Raiden has the same HP as Snake (at least in 2).  Also if you shoot Snake with a machine gun he tends to die pretty quickly, Snake vs. three guards with machine guns is a loss, while Cloud can take like a bazillion hits from three Shinra MPs who are a total joke.

If you absolutely had to have a consistent interpretation of Snake that was flavorful, he'd probably be vaguely Belial-like?  You have to use "hit everything" damage to get him.  He "uncloaks" three rounds or so in (so you have time to buff while Snake is hiding and sneaking up on you if you don't have MT), and once he fires once for big damage, if his opponent is still alive (no weak points?) then Snake gets pounded into dust.  But yeah, Snake is not getting ranked, so academic.

Actually, another amusing headache would be Diablo from Diablo II.  Great durability, but I think we'd have to assume competent control of the character, so he's got like a 15% chance to hit with any of his attacks.  Totally owned by evade of any kind, Lyn would destroy him much like Bow Amazons do in-game, but a decent slugger against "large" bosses who can't evade well and are big targets.

[RadLink5]

No, Guest Snake in MGS2 has 1.25 Raiden's HP. And Meryl is not a helpless guest, she mows down guards with you in that one scene early on.

[Grefter]

Aether - 24% chance of Normal Parasitic Healing, then a second hit that does damage based off Def/2 in place of a normal physical, 62 damage total, 27 Healing, Melee Only.  Note that while the first hit is insured (given the order of checks), the second makes its own accuracy check.

Aether going off doesn't sound super threatening to me.  Ike heals and then has to hit against evasion again for it to mean anything anyway.

This being a factor requires the odds playing in Ike's favour already anyway if you are assuming Blind strategy.  If you assume Protect like NEB, the odds of it coming up increase, but the damage is also a hell of a lot more survivable since the Def/2 attack is still getting halved by Protect anyway and OH SHIT she might have to spend a bit more MP on healing that turn.

I am unconvinced.

[Talaysen]

The downside is that doubling only works on physical attacks, at least to me.  So Jude can double his physical against Oswin all the time, but it'll just tink anyway; not sure I'd let Jude double-Assault Buster Oswin constantly, as a lot of special moves become very strange if doubled.  If it's a grey area on damage-inflicting skills, it's clearly black for anything else - status attacks don't get double chances against slow characters in-game, IIRC.

...you can double magic in FE just fine.  Even the long-ranged magic attacks.

And status attacks ignore doubing, yes.

[RadLink5]

Aether - 24% chance of Normal Parasitic Healing, then a second hit that does damage based off Def/2 in place of a normal physical, 62 damage total, 27 Healing, Melee Only.  Note that while the first hit is insured (given the order of checks), the second makes its own accuracy check.

Aether going off doesn't sound super threatening to me.  Ike heals and then has to hit against evasion again for it to mean anything anyway.

This being a factor requires the odds playing in Ike's favour already anyway if you are assuming Blind strategy.  If you assume Protect like NEB, the odds of it coming up increase, but the damage is also a hell of a lot more survivable since the Def/2 attack is still getting halved by Protect anyway and OH SHIT she might have to spend a bit more MP on healing that turn.

I am unconvinced.

Hm, perhaps I have oversold Aether then. So she definitely wins unless you're allowing Ike two hits per turn, in which case it's subject to interpretation.

While we're throwing stuff out there, I know taking FE Hit literally is bad, so I'm not sure how to figure out his actual hit rate, but the raw stat is like 146 or something. So does that off-put Blind any? I assume 146 isn't as spectacular as it sounds, so probably not.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ike's hit is pretty much dead average. Above average skill offsets slightly below average Luck and slightly below average weapon accuracy. Might be 1 point above, I am too lazy to look it up.

[Talaysen]

While we're throwing stuff out there, I know taking FE Hit literally is bad, so I'm not sure how to figure out his actual hit rate, but the raw stat is like 146 or something. So does that off-put Blind any? I assume 146 isn't as spectacular as it sounds, so probably not.

Average enemy Avo at endgame ranges from 42 to 48 depending on which you use.  So 146 is barely above 100% or barely below it, and Blind's still going to be pretty effective either way.

[Rozalia]

Rozalia, Re Meryl: Yeah, scaling against nigh-helpless guests is definitely a no-go (AtL4 cast is suddenly thrilled about Lillia bringing down the averages?), so Meryl is irrelevant and Raiden has the same HP as Snake (at least in 2).  Also if you shoot Snake with a machine gun he tends to die pretty quickly, Snake vs. three guards with machine guns is a loss, while Cloud can take like a bazillion hits from three Shinra MPs who are a total joke.

If you absolutely had to have a consistent interpretation of Snake that was flavorful, he'd probably be vaguely Belial-like?  You have to use "hit everything" damage to get him.  He "uncloaks" three rounds or so in (so you have time to buff while Snake is hiding and sneaking up on you if you don't have MT), and once he fires once for big damage, if his opponent is still alive (no weak points?) then Snake gets pounded into dust.  But yeah, Snake is not getting ranked, so academic.

Meryl isn't a helpless guest character, she simply isn't at the level of Snake and his godly Hp. I mean it runs in the family for Snake. Look at his Brother liquid for example. He survives being blown up in a mech, has a fist fight with Snake (Which is death to more or less everybody), falls off a giant mech and then has the mech callapse on him. Even after all that he still chases Snake and is shot countless times by a machine gun before a car crash happens and even then he still alive.

Also whats up with comparing late game enemies vs late game snake with late game Cloud vs beginning game enemies. Also I remember one point where Snake is stuck in a lift with cloaked enemies with guns and what happens? Snake beats the crap out of all of them easily.
Now if you want to go into gameplay then snake still easily wins. Hell he could survive late game Clouds Omnislash due to his blinking status that would make him immune to the rest of the slashs after the first one.

If he was an rpg character that is. Snake should never be ranke unless he is put in an rpg. Suddenly he is put in an rpg and its a best seller. Everyone cries.

[muakaka]

Godlike

Myria (BoFs) vs Jecht (FFX)- DURH.
Rubicant (FF4) vs Emelious de Pamela (G3)- Read above.
Melfice (G2) vs Xorn (G3)- Read above. x2
Nate Nanjo (Pers) vs Jade (BoF1)- Ugh. Now watch as Nate burns.

Heavy

Red (Saga) vs Lazlo (S4)- Lazlo in ST with a Wizard Rune effectively OVERKILLS any boss except the final boss, who's Rune Immune. Without, it's still probably a solid 600+ damage. If that doesn't work, Everlasting Mercy also does cure him now. S4 form burns.
Ayla (CT) vs Cliff Fittir (SO3)- Headache. Abstain.
Garnet Til Alexandros (FF9) vs Ike (FE9)- Low FE respect generally, and Garnet gets her buffs going in time I suppose.

Middle

Menardi (GS) vs Legault (FE7)- Godlike vs. FE. Seriously though, Menardi should get wins in Middle(To spoil Jean. PLEASE)
Yangus (DQ8) vs Ulf (G3)- ID?.....Works for me.
Bartholomew Fatima (XG) vs Jean (BoF2)- Read above.
Jade Curtiss (TotA) vs Haschel (LoD)- Why's Haschel in Middle again? He was pretty much best PC in my playthrough.....

Light

Zoah (CC) vs  Mustadio Bunanza (FFT)- This. Is. Ungodly. Evil.
Lucied (WAs) vs Yukimaru (Dis2)- UPGRADE.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Jun (VP1)- Kneejerk.
Nina Wyndia (BoF3) vs Relm Arrowny (FF6)- Not Relm. Even if it IS NINA THE 3RD.