FF3 ranking talk.

[superaielman]

See title. It's an idea I've bounced around to some extent or another since the announcement of FF3's DS port (and subsequent success), but it's always had several things working against it:


1. No art, either class specific or for characters. This includes Cloud of Darkness.
2.  No characters. FF3DS fixed this, but they're just templates that lack even the vague crystals for each character that FF5 has.
3.  Only rankable thing is generics and the final boss, pretty much.
4. Some formsplit issues between the NES/DS version.
5. Not all of the classes are worth ranking.

1's been fixed thanks to Dissada or whatever that new Square's fighter is called, and the FF3DS artbook. All the classes have art, and several shots of it. 3 is going to be the bone of course. 4.. mm. I think the only major concern is Onion Knight off the top of my head? The rest don't have too bad in the way of variance and we'll skip some of the headcases. 5 is easy, we'll only rank certain ones.

Off the top of my head from my own notes and talks with Meeple, there are.. a dozen or so rankable generics and CoD?

Ones I'd probably skip: White Mage (Made obsolete by Devout), Black Mage (Made obsolete by Shaman), Evoker (Higher tier summoner), Black Belt (Worthless), Knight (Massive formsplit it looks like), Viking (Boring.)

Thoughts? Does it fit the format to be rankable? It's certainly got the drawing/sales for it, and several cool enough duellers.

[OblivionKnight]

1) We have art, thankfully, as mentioned.
2) This is the worst part for me.  We don't really have characters, nor anything major to throw them in.  If we ranked the 4 PCs, then I'd personally see them as...well, generic Onion Knights, and since they don't have unique, storebought equipment, they're stuck with...being unable to break defense, and being beyond Puny, I think?  Worse than FF5 - they at least have characterization (albeit not amazing), and reasoning to have classes from the crystals.  I'd say this game should get the current FF5 treatment, and just have plot-important bosses ranked.
3) As for the ranking thing!  Rank Cloud of Darkness, Zande, Dorga, Unne, no others.  Those bosses are all plot-important, the only plot-importants IIRC.  Do not really support PCs, due to...no plot (FF3o only for me at the moment - they have plot in FF3DS, so...I'd probably support them in the end, but...well, Punies, likely)
4) Eh, formsplit is normal for most games.  See above, mostly, for plot stuff.  Combat-wise...eh.  It happens - it's going to happen no matter what with any game with split issues.
5) None, to me.  Do not rank random classes.  Rank CHARACTERS (this was my issue with FF1 and PKMN...and still is, to an extent).

I'd say those are the primary issues, really.  Otherwise works in the DL for all other reasons (fits format for rankability, drawing, etc.)

[Meeplelard]

Just want to correct super's list a bit:

Ones I'd probably skip: White Mage (Made obsolete by Devout), Black Mage (Made obsolete by Shaman), Evoker (Higher tier summoner), Black Belt (Worthless), Knight (Massive formsplit it looks like), Viking (Boring.)

First off, a nitpicking one!  Shaman = Devout, just under a fan translation.  Black Mage is in no way similar to it!  The Class you're looking for is the Magus under the official translation, Warlock under the Fan Translation.

Knight isn't as big a formsplit issue as you think.  Warrior's a much bigger one, in fact.  Knight is more an in game thing, but the two are similar in the DL.  Warrior, meanwhile?  FF3DS has game best damage, FF3 Original was completely obsoleted the instant you got Knight.

Viking isn't actually that boring; it does have Lightning damage for example, which is close to its main damage (if not its main damage), allowing it to nail some weaknesses (Hi Feraligator!)  Also a massive tank.

Evoker is actually not so much obsoleted by Summoner, since they have different summon effects (if Summoner's end up overall superior, but Evoker can get stuff like Reflect or Healing that Summoner cannot, albeit, randomly.)
*HOWEVER*, Evoker *IS* completely worthless next to the Sage.  FF3DS Sage gets all the same summons as the Evoker, but also adds in the entire Black and White Magic skillsets (off lower stats in FF3DS, hence doesn't make Magus and Devout completely obsolete.)

Freelancer should be on that list.  It is completely pointless class that was basically there to last you the early game *AND* its FF3DS only.  No one realistically uses the Freelancer any longer than they should, for...a number of reasons, frankly.

Bard should be on that list too.  Complete garbage in FF3o, total niche class that doesn't translate at all in the DL and brings nothing to the table other than being a puny in the remake.

Lastly, thinking Archer should be up there.  Its basically Viking with more damage but far worse tanking, and crappy status.  Also sounds like one of the lesser used classes in the game.

[Talaysen]

Bleh, no.  I only support ranking generics in the absence of actual characters, and FF3DS has actual characters.  Said characters are practically clones in the DL, but they're still characters.

Bosses are rankable, but not really all that interesting.

Yeah, not in favor of ranking this one.

[Luther Lansfeld]

With people like Zylo and other completely garbage who gives a fuck about these people do they actually talk in game characters ranking generics is pretty inoffensive to me as long as the game has the demand to rank it. And I'd really like to see a DS game ranked personally, and the classes are definitely unique and fun.

So yes I approve pretty strongly of FF3 ranking. And FF5 for that matter.

[Nitori]

Same idea as Ciato, really. The DL's main feature isn't the writeups, that's just amusing flavor~. I fail to see any real distinction between an actual character and a generic when the actual feature of the site doesn't distinguish between the two at all. Besides, uh...SHINING FORCE CHARACTERS. Yes.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Not really in favor of ranking generics, but the bosses are rankable enough. Which division are each of the bosses in, out of curiosity? Are they all a slew of low Godlikes or is there some variety in there?

As a side note, doesn't the opening cinema of FF3DS, as well as some of the official art give the new characters some default classes? Offhand, I wanna say Luneth was Warrior, Refia was White Mage, Arc was Black mage, and whatshisname (Angus?) was Red Mage? Not exactly an interesting cast if you do it that way, but that's as close to assigning official classes to the characters as I've seen.

-Djinn

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I would be all for ranking generics. The distinction between generics and characters can often be blurry, and sometimes it's a complete "who the fuck cares". I mean, the difference between a FF5 generic and a SHINING FORCE CHARACTER is the fact one is named as something other than class. If the classes themselves offer interesting duellers and the game has the votedraw for it, I say rank the generics. The "character" distinction feels particularly arbitrary and an unnecessary invitation for interp splits that would be neatly avoided with just class ranking. And, quite frankly, duellers interest me more than characters at this point, and -anything- can be turned into writeup fodder if you're going to argue that. Feels like the case against it is objectively poor, but held against far more than it should.

[OblivionKnight]

Except in the case of FF5 and FF3, the classes do not exist individually - they exist as classes a character moves into and utilizes.  Disgaea, for example, does not do this - generics are unique in that sense, and classes are...well, just that - generic classes.  The same goes with (BLAH) FFT. 

I'm not 100% sure what my point is there (brain hurt study design pain), but I'm very much of the want to rank characters and not classes .

[Dhyerwolf]

If we were going to rank generics, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to rank FFT ones anyways (And probably FF 5 too)? Of the most rankable person, both Dark Cloud forms are Godlike right (The original might be saved by what appears to be massive evasion)?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Djinn: Cloud of Darkness is Godlke, rest of the boss cast is... yeah, I don't support it offhand. Pretty minor, votesplit, art has issues I think?

Generics I'd support, minus Freelancer and Onion Knight, and any others seen as redundant / whatever. Seconding the sentiment that they own Shining Force as ranks.

To Tal, I wouldn't consider FF3 to have rankable characters, personally. Ranking Refia/etc. would be a horrible idea and does not mesh with the site nearly as well as ranking Red Mage, and it's made worse by the fact that one (two if you count WSC!) release of the game doesn't even have them at all.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That's exactly what I really want to know: what exactly makes characters so much more important? Writeup potential? It derives from who's writing most of the time. Obviously, more personality makes a character easier to write for, but that's not a biggie, and the lack of personality, on the other hand, gives more freedom to make up for the lack of starting material. Fan appeal? That's... an actual point, but it feels like such a weak point, considering people can also be fan of classes as well. The point of classes not existing individually feels fringe - regardless of the characters being actual characters or not, the classes would be there. FF3j serves as a fine point, considering your PCs aren't real characters in any sense of the word any more than FFT generics (who, by the way, also have lines and speak. Is that the actual distinction to be made?).

I... just really don't understand what makes -such- a big difference that warrants keeping the block on generics so adamantly. Especially when it hardblocks games that would be easy good ideas for ranking like FF5. I... dunno, I honestly can't see the argument. Both are fictional pieces of data in the end, and, as far as I know, they are mechanically and even practically identical for all purposes that matter for duelling and even for fan draw to a lesser extent. I kinda want to understand the big gap that seems to exist, but I just can't see it.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The only thing I can think of against generic classes-as-characters (a la FF3DS and FF5) is that each individual character has his/her own base stats that gets modified by their 'class', thus giving each class a votesplit based on whether a voter sees 'Red Mage' as Bartz-RedMage or Lenna-RedMage, as an example. If I'm remembering FF5 correctly, Lenna would have had a magical advantage, where as Bartz would have an advantage in durability.

Apart from that, the fact that the DL doesn't rank generics is just the consensus from what I understand. Personality might not be a factor to some voters, but it's a pretty big deal to others. You can argue that Shining Force characters are bland and personality-less, but you don't see any Shining games up for ranking these days anymore, do you? VP2's Einherjar weren't even generics, but they were almost unanimously overturned as ranking ideas.

I think apart from the psychological block, there's also the sense that if we start ranking generics from one game, then it'll become standard practice. Maybe FF1 is the exception - but maybe it will become the rule? Suddenly all 4000 pokemon are ranked! Hell, let's rank all the Disgaea classes while we're at it! And hey, if we can rank generic classes, why not generic monsters? Slime for Light  champ! Not to mention that if we rank FF3's classes, then why not FF5/FFT/FFX-2?

It starts to really crowd the roster with similar duelers across series. You can argue this for any game series (suikoden, FE, Tales), but across FF job-system games, you don't even have the benefit of a different character design and name. You also can't determine which classes are 'plot-relevent', or whether a certain class *has* starting equipment, or plot-given equips. interpreting systems that we already have in place for normal characters don't always apply to classes. In some cases, this might not matter, but if we set a precedent for ranking generics, then they have to be given their own sets of rules.

At least, those seem like the arguments most people would have against it.

-Djinn

[superaielman]

Ciato: FF5 generics don't really have usable art as far as I know. (more to the point I think there's a pretty good split in class vs crystal forms for the characters there. It's certainly arguble but with the art concerns I've always wanted to pass there.)

Dhyer: FFT has enough ranked, and it does have plenty of rankable characters otherwise. Normal characters should trump generics generally, but FF3 doesn't really have any. The DS characters aren't reallly rankable as is and aren't in every version.

I would rather rank 3 than 5 even ignoring that, I'd like to see exactly how much pull a strongly selling DS game like it really has on site.

EDIT: Response to Djinn.

The only thing I can think of against generic classes-as-characters (a la FF3DS and FF5) is that each individual character has his/her own base stats that gets modified by their 'class', thus giving each class a votesplit based on whether a voter sees 'Red Mage' as Bartz-RedMage or Lenna-RedMage, as an example. If I'm remembering FF5 correctly, Lenna would have had a magical advantage, where as Bartz would have an advantage in durability.

FF5 base stat differences are nearly nil, I don't think that even exists in FF3.

Apart from that, the fact that the DL doesn't rank generics is just the consensus from what I understand. Personality might not be a factor to some voters, but it's a pretty big deal to others. You can argue that Shining Force characters are bland and personality-less, but you don't see any Shining games up for ranking these days anymore, do you? VP2's Einherjar weren't even generics, but they were almost unanimously overturned as ranking ideas.

Being a generic is a strike against any character or idea, and for the large part (like with anything we make exceptions for) they're held out for that reason. But if there's good enough reason to rank them- it takes a special case like FF3 or 5 or 1 to be considered- they should be considered.

VP2 example? All of the Einherjar were missable. Even a near sure shot like Phyress at 90% was missed by several people here including me, and it's a huge cast on top of that. Largely skipping them was a good idea. If SF2 drew hugely and was reranked, I'm sure we would rank some of the plotless characters, though yes it'd be different than what it was in the RPGP/DL for a lot of reasons.

I think apart from the psychological block, there's also the sense that if we start ranking generics from one game, then it'll become standard practice. Maybe FF1 is the exception - but maybe it will become the rule? Suddenly all 4000 pokemon are ranked! Hell, let's rank all the Disgaea classes while we're at it! And hey, if we can rank generic classes, why not generic monsters? Slime for Light  champ! Not to mention that if we rank FF3's classes, then why not FF5/FFT/FFX-2?

FFX-2 is hated and can't draw, and it *does* have rankable characters. Hell the entire PC cast is ranked as is. But ignoring that it's a common sense thing, like with any rank that deviates outside of the norm for whatever reason. Ranking a few pokemon doesn't mean we're going to rank a flood, ranking SD3 didn't mean we were suddenly going to rank Live a Live or Rudra.  Ranking Roufas and the others we ranked in S19 didn't mean we were going to rank all of SaGa, etc.  Like I said above, if the game for whatever reason can overcome those issues and be ranked, good. SD3 certainly was a solid addition to the DL when it was all said and done, so was FF1.

It starts to really crowd the roster with similar duelers across series. You can argue this for any game series (suikoden, FE, Tales), but across FF job-system games, you don't even have the benefit of a different character design and name. You also can't determine which classes are 'plot-relevent', or whether a certain class *has* starting equipment, or plot-given equips. interpreting systems that we already have in place for normal characters don't always apply to classes. In some cases, this might not matter, but if we set a precedent for ranking generics, then they have to be given their own sets of rules.

We have dozens of healers with no plot or real character ranked, etc. The name thing's a point enough, but eh. The classes have to fit the system we have in place or they don't work, which FF3 does. Classes lose access to starting/plot equips, seems simple enough. As always I can see the objections to generics in general, but the benefits of ranking certain borderline ideas smartly trumps them for me. There are other problems - Generics besides for the super popular ones like FF1 Knight always run the risk of getting robbed and memorablity for a lot of them is a serious issue.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Ah, didn't realize FF5 had art problems.

FFT generics would be a wonderful rank if there weren't like 30 FFT characters already ranked.

[Cmdr_King]

The only problem with FFIII generics is really the fact that I'm not convinced FFIII is strong enough to support a cast of 15+ (even if you trim out the 'redundant' classes (not that DS really has any...), you're gonna have a good sized cast).  FFIII's class system doesn't really generate the FFV character vs class problem, since you can't really mix and match class abilities or make significant changes to the base character (uh.. whooo, MONK HP GROWTH.  Only thing that really matters is the melee bonus thing, which isn't any sort of issue in terms of ranking).

That said, if nothing else Cloud of Darkness is worth looking into, although I'd want to see what the votesplit is like, and if she draws worse than the generics, before doing too much there, even.

[obligatory 'kick people into Gen 4 pokemon if we want DS games' comment here]
[equally obligatory 'CK is set on fire' here]

[superaielman]

FF3 DS crushes Pokemon DS pretty much across the board and that's ignoring the NES version. I don't think drawing's going to be a concern. It was unquestionably stronger than Disgaea 2 the last time it was in, if not overwhelming. Be interesting to see how it holds up on the main site, but it should be good enough for a large but not exceptionally large ranking.

Edit: Dur, missed context. Sorry.

[Dark Holy Elf]

FF5 base stat differences are nearly nil, I don't think that even exists in FF3.

Just want to note that Super is entirely correct here, yeah. FF3 characters are entirely flavour, and FF5 is almost the same (to give you an idea... Bartz has a 3 point advantage over Reina in Strength... and Knight has a ~40 point advantage over Wizard, plus gets actual weapons).

[Dunefar]

I can live with the bosses, sure. The PCs? No, that feels like ranking aspects of fuller characters. I'm not comfortable with it and it sets a bad president. I'd vote no if it came up in the next ranking topic.

[Grefter]

I am against ranking generics kind of on principle, but if that is the direction the DL wants to move in then I am all for it (more solid player base rankings are something I am willing to let slide here for something like generics.  I won't vote on them but OH TRAGEDY).

That is all I will say on the topic.

I will chime in on FF5 mechanics though.  Stat differences in FF5 were 1 point difference either way from the middle for the difference in Strength, Vitality Magic and Dexteriry/speed/whatever the fuck if I remember correctly on a scale of at least like 50 at end game.  The difference is functionally meaningless, and damage difference both defensively and offensively suffers far greater variance due to randomisation than it does based on stat difference and stat difference is far more prominent between classes than between characters.

[alanna82]

I actually dont really have a problem with ranking Generics, I totally supported FF1 and Pokemon.

and whoever mentioned Zylo, he is awesome! He is totally not generic at all. >_>

Yeah, generics are fine with me, as long as the game translates well to the format, which it does. Art exists, so thats another point. I would test it in Not ranked first though.

[Lance]

I probably wouldn't be too enthusiastic about ranking the generics. I would, however, support a small FF5-ish ranking of just Xande and Cloud of Darkness. None of the other bosses stand out too much.

[DjinnAndTonic]

We should rank Djinn. >.>

[SnowFire]

Xande's definitely a solid rank.  Cloud of Darkness would be good too, despite some misgivings I mentioned in the last ranking thread re: its useless in-game Bad Breath. 

If we were really feeling spry, I suppose Doga & Unne are rankable as well.  I'd be even more hesitant here; they're fought right when a whole bunch of powerful stuff opens up elsewhere which can lead to some respect splits.  I know that I wiped against them the first time, found out that things like the final classes and a bunch of sidequests had opened up, did the sidequests, then easily beat them.  Additionally, neither has tons of HP but also have insanely powerful overkill moves at <50% HP that some people likely never see.

Generics, though, I wouldn't be a fan of.  The flavor reason has already adequately been covered elsewhere (FF1 was helped by 8-bit Theatre on this).  Two other points:
1) FF3DS's JP system tends to encourage you to pick a class and stay with it.  If you constantly switch between classes, your damage will be noticeably bad.  This decreases the chance that a player will know a class terribly well - beats me how good Ranger is, for example, as I didn't use it.  And even if a character did use it, endgame is where the use in the DL matters - Ranger, according to FAQs, apparently sucks because it doesn't get much of an ultimate weapon.  Compare this to, say, FFT, which encourages you to play around with classes and makes it easy to compare their abilities and damage.
2) The stat topic, in a bid to make classes more unique, uses the endgame JL 99 rewards from the "send messages to your friends" DS gimmick.  While I'll grant that making classes more unique has value, I never did this quest, and even if I did I'd only have gotten the JL99 weapon for Knight & Dragoon.  This means that what in-game experience I do have I still can't entirely trust for a "DL-legal" class, and there'll be much running to the stat topic.

If we absolutely had to rank generics, I'd be in favor of only ranking characters whose worth mainly relies on magic.  Fighting type classes rely on relative stats and equipped weapons a lot, which makes comparison especially hard.  Devout / Magus / Sage / Summoner all at least basically run the same way in the DL as far as their abilities and strategies, even if some people will slightly adjust their defense one way or the other.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh yeah, I agree with point (2), at least in part. The JL99 stuff is really dicy and a bit confusing to me as to why it was included. Granted, apparently endgame weapons also have imbalance from in-game, since they screw some characters out of uniques? VP situation regardless, yeah it's a bit annoying, but on the other hand, a lot of the simple truths of FF3 do shine through. Warrior will beat everyone for physical damage due to high Str/Spd and Advance, Thief coming second due to omgwtf mults. Dragoon musters a lot of damage with Jump, has issues otherwise. Knight sucks at damage but has good defence, ditto Viking (both with tricks that don't translate to the DL). Ninja does damage with Shurikens, which are decent regardless. All of those pure physical classes (well, knight has a little magic...) seem straightforward and rankable enough. The likes of Ranger, yeah, I would be fine with passing on.

(1), however, doesn't bother me at all. Fire Emblem, Shining Force, heck, even FF7 also encourage you to choose characters and stick to them. FF3 actually does a bit more to encourage some experimentation with the fact that most classes get a time in the sun. For the rest, there's stat topics.

Xande is so not a better rank than Cloud of Darkness, but we've already had that debate, and I don't see much point in pursuing it here, since I'm pretty confident that if we rank FF3 at all, she'll get in. Xande... hmm. On reflection I can't really defend my kneejerk against ranking him, beyond the fact that he's just some guy I repeatedly steamroll in-game en route to the final and find him much less memorable than any of the Crystal Guardians. He does have plot, and a stat topic entry, though, so eh. If others want him I won't stand in the way.