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Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!  (Read 144032 times)

Nephrite

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« on: August 23, 2008, 11:42:26 PM »
Use this post to discuss possible new additions or re-ranking ideas for old ones. Also feel free to use this post to give your opinions on how certain people work in conjunction with each other.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 03:43:43 AM by Nephrite »

DjinnAndTonic

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 02:01:33 AM »
I wanted to see if there was any interest in an FE Bard being added to the dungeon.

With Jane, who was only useful for her one trick of making slow teams faster, coming up short in her last run through the dungeon - I was wondering about alternatives to slowness problems. FE Bards tend to have their one trick, which is incredibly useful, but they have more drawbacks than Jane - lack of skillsets and being slow themselves. Looking at some individual bards....

Nils (FE7) - Perhaps the most well-known of the FE Bards due to his RPGmon appearances. His trick of giving a party member an extra turn is amazing for any team's damage-dealer or status-slinger. Can't get the job done in one hit? How about another? Imagine Yuri getting two shots of FtC in later floors! Nils also has access to some status-buffers. But, he dies to a sneeze. Even the scrubiest of boss support will get a turn before him and take out any chance of him granting another turn to a party member. He also has absolutely no method of dealing damage. Might be useful in a well-built team... Cloud's Cover materia and Eileen's Copper Flesh come to mind. Maybe... 2.5-3.5 depending on your view.

Tethys (FE8) - Technically a Dancer, not a Bard (whatever). Like Nils, she can give extra turns. She has no status buffers, but has better evade and res than Nils (she might not die on the first hit!). Still dies to a sneeze or any ITE (or MT) attack. Might work well with a Rika team as a result. Feels like Nils-light. Still no damage. 2.0-3.0 range?

Reyson (FE9) - Here's where things get interesting. Reyson can give another party member an extra turn. Because he's a Laguz, he can transform in 3 turns into his Heron form. In Heron form, he gets signifcantly boosted speed/def/res/eva AND the ability to give extra turns to up to four party members at once. Apart from his horrid durability, lack of damage, and the fact that his Heron form will wear out after 3 rounds (and start the cycle over again), he's clearly the more useful of the FE Bards (technically a Heron class, whatever). Could be too good, but might be an interesting option. Maybe 2.5-4.0 range?

Any thoughts?
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Dark Holy Elf

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 03:40:35 AM »
Reyson strikes me as being the worst due to durability. It's really a lot worse than the GBA bard/dancers, and he'll never survive the four (not three) turns needed to transform ever.

Nils/Ninian has some evade, but it isn't uber immediately. Later it may allow for turn 1 dodging at least. Physical durability is... well, solidly 2HKOed by average damage. Hardly "OHKOed by any boss support", though. Rings aren't really as good in the dungeon in-game but eh, could get the job done in ensuring a certain PC lives to get a turn, etc.

Tethys is basically the same situation, slightly more durable but no rings.

No idea what rank they'd end up in practice in the dungeon. Thinking 2.5 area.

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DjinnAndTonic

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 05:10:58 AM »
Hmm... maybe I should re-evaluate the ranking numbers then? I would guess Ninian/Nils/Tethys at 2.5 and Reyson at 2.0 then.

Hmm... it feels like I'm missing more information on Reyson. Did he have some sort of skill or regeneration or something like that?

-Djinn

Dhyerwolf

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 05:42:28 AM »
There are a few other turn givers around (Emphasis on a few) in RPGs if you are also looking for one that can attack.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 05:49:59 AM »
They're all a bit odd in that they really feel they benefit a lot from certain teams and allies (for instance, Tidus or Jane improve them substantially), so are hard to place.

Who are you thinking of, Dhyer?

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 05:55:50 AM »
Yulie, Sania, and a WA 5 character with a Mountain Rune (And possibly some other type of Rune). Granted, the WA type is more conditional since it shifts your turn the whoever is closest to getting a turn (But also the speed bonus). I feel like there is someone else I'm forgetting,  but my mind isn't picking it up.

Checking on it, Yulie is already in too!
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DjinnAndTonic

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 06:04:53 AM »
The big problems there is that Yulie should be spending most of her time doing better things than turn-giving. Also, she doesn't get the Turn shift skill until... floor 3? 4? Same issue as Jane - doesn't get the skill early enough. Don't know about Sania, never really used her.

FE Bards would have the turn-increasing skills from the get go. In exchange, they have crap durability and no damage. Seems like a fair enough trade. They may run the main damage-dealer out of resources very quickly, though...

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 06:35:28 AM »
Mana Khemia also has Roxis for a turn-giver, which is partial MT (affects multiple characters if they'd get their turns close to each other already).

There's also XF Sacred Slayer, which is probably a better idea than a WA5 Mountain Rune user.  >.>

However, FE bards have the best votedraw here, so, yeah.

dude789

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 12:21:41 PM »
2.5 sounds a bit high. I think it would be fine if they were more durable, but with them being so frail and average speed I think a 2.0 or 1.5 would be better for the FE bards. I do like the idea of a XF sacred slayer. Even though XF isn't as widely played. she seems like a fun character to use and XF characters are pretty simple. You could figure out enough you need to vote on them just by looking at the stat topic.

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 01:56:31 PM »
Roxis! <3

**

Nice ideas Djinn~


Ok ... here goes >.>

Rankings -

Lucia- I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying this considering I got her so inexpensively but it seems as if she's way too cheap for 1 point. Status protection, mp regeneration and stat buffs are goooood. Considering that she hits Moon Oil for +50% to effects of ally abilities/attacks/supports/magic/whatever or double critical rate on F4 too yeah. Even w/o adding ring effects to her physicals she's probably too good for one point anyway. Definitely worth another .5  point at least bringing her cost up to 1.5

Songstress- Soooooo good. Considering her dominance of the dungeon in teams she has been in so far she too might be worth another .5. On the other hand her low HP/frailty may be balancing out her hax. Dunno though ... she gets so many good skills early. Yeah.

Eiko - Not worth it. Needs to be cheaper. Or removed for a faster reviver. FFIX already has Garnet.


**

Ranking ideas-

Well despite the impression I get that some people don't take me seriously on this >.> I feel really strongly on it though considering the hax I've seen it game. I've mastered these characters so much it's like I know them inside out <.<

SO3

Peppita-

Pros - Great support character - Power Dance (1.75 MT ATK boost rising to 2.85 as the skill levels), Panic Dance (MT Chaos -up to 100% chance of causing chaos depending on enemy status abnormality resistance), Healing Dance (MT faaast HP restore/regen), Magical Dance (MT fast MP restore/regen), Magic Hook and counters also cause chaos. Frozen Daggers is there for chance of freeze + shatter kill. Is the interesting anomaly of being a support character that can also wield massive havoc in great damage with Faerie Friend. Solid damage otherwise with her attacks/skills being boosted by Power Dance. Short O is also relatively powerful for starters. MP damage options.

Cons - Poor HP and DEF. Also is slow if you force her to turn base rather than ARPG. Doesn't learn Berserk till F4, Faerie Friend till F5/6. Doesn't get MP regeneration till post game so floor 7/8.  Healing Dance/Magical Dance have to be levelled before they start restoring a decent amount (they start off pathetic, need to be L4/5 before they are at least decent. Really quite good at L10 though. Interpt issues though I think those have been pretty much ironed out by now.

Maria-

Pros - Decent support character with +50% boost in ATK or DEF with Power Up or Protection, +20% boost to all stats with Angel Feather. Starts with Aiming Device for evil SO3 chaos and MP damage. Gets options for paralysis later. Starts off with Berserk. Godly MP damage with Energy Burst. Solid damage dealer overall depending on what you allow her. S/R Scatter Beams + Berserk is hax. Also really good DL damage with Berserk + Energy Burst

Cons- Even slower than Peppita! HP is lower than Peppita and Nel's too. Doesn't get Energy Burst till post game. No healing.

Adray/Sophia

New ideas for dungeon revivers.


**

LoD-

Shana/Miranda-

Pros Fast! Healer/MT healer! Reviver! Fast reviver! W Silver Dragon is hax.

Cons Kind of frail. Limited MP. Only one big shot of damage, damage sucks outside of that. Maybe Neph might allow her an Amulet later though.

"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

DjinnAndTonic

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 01:20:40 AM »
I'd be all for some LoD in the dungeon. Shana strikes me as a 1.0 due to leaving early and possibly losing out on better equips in most interps. Miranda might be just a bit higher then? Maybe a 1.5.

Maria strikes me as a solid cheap damage/MP damage option. Frailty/slowness would probably nerf her, though she's good at the beginning. Limited usefulness might put her at around 1.5-2.5 range. Could always hype her plotpowers!*is shot*

Never used Pepitta or Sophia much myself, so no comment there.

Perhaps Dungeon ideas should be given their own topic so this stickied topic doesn't become too cluttered?

-Djinn

SnowFire

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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 01:43:35 AM »
Djinn: Ah, but her plot powers are legal.  That's where she's getting Angel Feather / Protection / etc. from.  (Well, considering Fayt gets Explosion and the like...)

The only issue I'd see with Maria is that her worth fluctuates with how good you are with comboing her vs. comboing with others.  I mean, for my part, I found that simply sticking +50% Attack Up on her close-weak attack allowed me to brutally stun-lock a lot of enemies - the two quick kicks cost like 5 Fury, so you can get 20 off while locking one enemy.  Good luck hyping this in the Dungeon, though.  Energy Burst is at least easier to interpret (awesome if it hits), but it only comes into play on like Floor 8.

I mentioned this to Nephrite awhile back and he wasn't enthusiastic, but I'd still propose...

Larsa (0.5): Infinite potions!  Will dutifully heal team.  On the downside, HP is only averageish at first and gets comparatively worse as time goes on.  Damage not great nor fast, and eventually his fixed-healing potions top out and start sucking from Floor 6 on.

He's a useful random extra character to toss in if you have extra points or are doing a Silent Lake type build.

Also, though plenty of similar characters also exist...  Kurando isn't listed as it stands.  Even though he's kind of one-dimensional (he'll be using Tsukiyomi until floor 7), he does have speedy attacks with healing / status-nulling.  Probably a 3.0?

Mad Fnorder

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Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Ideas for Teams
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 03:13:03 AM »
Kurando's probably not 3.0. He runs out of gas VERY quick in Tsukiyomi, and the damage on the magic isnt' that great. 2.5, I'd say.

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 04:31:59 AM »
Larsa's infinite potions to get a team through lower floors sounds tempting. Is 0.5 really high enough? I'd peg him as a 1.0. And would promptly use him and Nall in my team. Floor 2, I'm gunning for you. >.<

-Djinn


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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 05:17:20 AM »
Amarant Coral.

This guy's a great support unit. Chakra for scrubby (though better a lot later on) HP/MP restoration, good damage with Throw and No Mercy, and Aura for Regen and Auto-Life. He's also got a death spell that activates in just a few turns, though Countdown can be unreliable at times. Also gains good revival later on. Pretty fast, too. I think he's a good, versatile pick. He can fill in any role that's needed. His defense ain't so hot, and Chakra isn't good to rely on for healing, though.

Also, if he hits Trance, Elan will brutalize. Full Party Regen + Auto-Life sounds monstrous. But of course, Trance would take awhile to obtain, and interpretting when exactly he could get it could give headaches. <.<

To me, he sounds like a good 2.5/3.0. Healing, damage, revival later on, and fast (not Zidane fast, but can outspeed). His defense isn't exactly top-notch, but he also gets FF9 equips to help him out there.

Thoughts?
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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 06:08:56 AM »
Thinking 3 seems high, but I have no idea how an Auto-Life+Reviver combo works out. Unfortunately, everything else is kind of meh. Chakra is horrid until disk 4 (Although 20% MP healing might have a use). Endgame FF 9 armors help against elemental blitzes, but minus some notable matches, those aren't scattered everywhere. No status immunities to most people too. On top of that, most of his decent skills come on disk 3, meaning by dungeon rules they'd probably not kick in for quite some time even though they don't come that long after he joins. His ranking really depends on that, because if he gets those skills around floors 4-5, he's going to be ridiculously slow starting for a 2.5 (And not completely owning after that). I mean...I'd probably say he's better than Quina, but Quina seems like she'd be a bad 2 anyways.

Kurando...is more solid than I would at first think, since SP would reset in between each battle right? Resources aren't deep, but 170% speed after transforming (Might be closer to 150% when first obtained?)+solid physical damage. Again, he can get the healing about 2 seconds after you get him, but I don't know if that means he could get it pretty quickly in dungeon.

0.5...could actually work for Larsa. Free full healing is nice, but it's ST off a tad below average speed (And 85% by the second time he comes around). And by the second time you have him, he has like 1/2 average damage, and 70% HP...and I'm not sure that factors in HP+ Gambits. If Rand is in 0.5, not sure I could really justify Larsa as better. Similarly, hard to look at Larsa and see someone as good as Rena, Mint, and Restore Aeris, who are all 1s. And he probably just gets relatively slower and less durable and less damaging as the time rolls on.

Shana/Miranda are really bad dungeon wise. No Dragoon until mid disk 2, and then what that's obtained, MP is limited and I believe their SP is tied to Dragoon level. Bad SP at first is really atrocious, meaning not only do they need several turns to build up Dragoon levels, but they can't really store the levels all that easily either. Most turns are going to be spent Defending or trying to inflict 25% Confuse, because the majority of the time they might not actually have anything more worthwhile to try and do. With magic items this would be a different story. Speed and Mdur are nice, but so many other things are working against them. 1 might work, but 1.5 seems high. Not really sure anyone besides Rose works from LoD since they either lack team options, or have Meru's Mdur.

SO 3...skillsetwise, they have solid potential, but not quite sure how well SO 3 would generally work those. Adray over Sophia for sure though, since joining much earlier makes her nicer dungeon interps (For all that Adray in dungeon would feel like a stock healer/reviver, I'd imagine. Easier to get one of those without interp mess). I could both see the worth/uniqueness in Maria/Peppita.
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Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 06:18:14 PM »
Here are a few thoughts I have had based on some discussion with people. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.

Blue 4.0

You may choose one skill for mastery every floor.

Floor 1: Realm
Floors 2 through 5: Rune or Arcane, Light or Dark, Swords, Fists, Guns
Floor 6: Time or Space

Pros: Another multi-tasker. Build him how you want. Ridiculous if you can get him to Floor 7.
Cons: A little weak out of the gate. Saga stat gains are a bit wonky, so your mileage may vary. Boss Timelord may be a requirement.

Relm 2.5

Choose three Espers. You gain those three espers depending on when you could in-game.

For example: You choose Ramuh. Relm gains Ramuh and all of its spells on Floor 3.

Pros: Takes full advantage of Relm's great magic stat. Very versatile choice for the points spent.
Cons: No espers for at least two or three floors. A lot of the good stuff isn't until later.


Maxim with spells 3.5

Pros: Great repertoire of abilities to use. IPs help a great deal as well.
Cons: A little slow to start. Some IPs are of limited use. (3x damage to bugs!!!)


Selan with spells 2.5?

Pros: A different spin on Maxim. Still versatile with some good healing.
Cons: Durability is a bit of a problem. IPs are less stellar.


Jude 2.0

Pros: Fast with some neat skills that benefit that particular niche.
Cons: No real team skills to speak of at all.


Alicia, VP2 2.0

Pros: Neat healing game. Being able to heal and attack is swell, too.
Cons: Healing and attacking is neat, but her damage takes a nose dive halfway through.


Rufus, VP2 3.0

Pros: Neat buffing spells along with being a pretty good damage dealer. Status options are nice too.
Cons: Takes some time to actually get his spells. Opponents that resist Lightning are problematic.


Lucian, VP1 2.5

Pros: Shining Bolt = PWS every turn. Hooray!
Cons: Not much else besides the damage.


Shiho 1.0

Pros: Turn one buffs that are pretty amazing. Heal is nice too. She has Wait Reaction!!!
Cons: Doesn't work too well without Lucian to let her do more than one thing every five turns.


Gilder 2.0

Pros: Aura of Denial is neat. Increm and Quika are too.
Cons: Requires a turn or two to use Quika. Can't use Aura of Denial and any of his other spells.


Miranda 1.0?

Pros: Neat concept of a healer and damage dealer. Dragoon helps.
Cons: Dragoon isn't actually obtained for a while. MP issues.


AF Sacred Slayer 1.5

Pros: Nice spin on the Yulie-type. Turn Shift is really awesome.
Cons: Speed and damage are not quite there.



Removing

Gau
Tengaar
Rei
Alena
Philia
Malak


Moving

Yuri1 to 3.5
Garnet to 2.0
Eiko to 1.5


Let's see. Larsa is a little bit too weak, I think. He doesn't really scale at all after Floor 4 or so, since his potions stop being super godlike. I mean, I suppose as a .5 or 1.0 that's not terribly bad since it's still free healing.

Kurando... would not get Tsukiyomi until Floor 3 or 4, I'd say, so I'm not sure where to peg him. 3.0 or 3.5, since he's a little bit limited until then.

Amarant would most likely be a 2.5, even with MP recovery he's not that great and uncontrolled limits are a little bit of a headache.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 05:23:11 AM by Nephrite »

Rozalia

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 08:11:02 PM »
Quote
Let's see. Larsa is a little bit too weak, I think. He doesn't really scale at all after Floor 4 or so, since his potions stop being super godlike. I mean, I suppose as a .5 or 1.0 that's not terribly bad since it's still free healing

Well actually he does scale at end game (Late but worth of note maybe). He does have that form he uses against 1st form Vayne. How good it is I have no idea but it should have better damage and hp then his other forms.

EDIT: Also starts with Shell and protect from what I remember so I would peg him at 1.0 not 0.5.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 08:18:58 PM by Rozalia »

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 08:29:55 PM »
Kurando doesn't really work in the dungeon, or at least wouldn't be a good pick.  Remember, he joins without his fusion (the battleship dungeon), so he'd have to wait until the point in the dungeon he'd normally get it rather than starting with it, meaning... what, 5 floors of slightly above average speed physicals?  Yeah.
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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 09:00:53 PM »
I think I'd rather see Tia with spells - weaker overall than Selan by a good deal thanks to the incredibly awful HP, but either works.  Maxim's a fun 3.5 pick thanks to the early healing and good crowd control IPs, but goooooooood luck getting to Champion/Valor.  Gilder's neat.
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Mad Fnorder

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 11:20:44 PM »
Would Fist Blue get DSC? Bwahahahha.

Also, Floor 1 Realm should probably be forced.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:24:58 PM by Mad Fnorder »

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2008, 12:01:02 AM »
Quote
Blue 4.0

You may choose one skill for mastery every floor.

Floors 1 through 5: Rune or Arcane, Light or Dark, Mind, Realm, Swords, Fists, Guns
Floor 6: Time or Space

Pros: Another multi-tasker. Build him how you want. Ridiculous if you can get him to Floor 7.
Cons: A little weak out of the gate. Saga stat gains are a bit wonky, so your mileage may vary. Boss Timelord may be a requirement.

I'll note that Blue can't actually learn Mind magic until after fighting Rouge. Also would agree with Floor 1 Realm being forced. That is what he starts with, afterall.
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Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 12:30:32 AM »
I... completely forgot he couldn't learn Mind magic. Yeah, Realm being Floor 1 is probably the most sensible, too. Blue would get DSC as a Floor 8 bonus!


Also, Maria as a... 2.0? 2.5, maybe... Eh, 2.0 is probably the best. Adray would be a good 1.0 or 1.5 and Peppita can also be around 1.5, just for the record. That's what I'd ballpark them as, anyway.

Nilsian would most likely be 1.5 or 2.0 as well, since not having much durability sinks the game they can do a lot.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 12:32:14 AM by Nephrite »

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2008, 01:00:16 AM »
Would Relm have access to FF6 Advance espers?