Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!  (Read 144204 times)

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1050 on: November 11, 2011, 05:38:21 AM »
Geno is really badly outclassed by Tir as a 3.5 choice and Tir isn't picked that much as a 3.5 to begin with. Geno Boost is good, but it's not that good considering that Geno doesn't have a whole lot outside of that and the ID, and again the resources are really bad. 
Comparing the two.

Geno's Advantages:
Geno Boost
Better late game MT damage (Geno Flash is slightly above average but not by much and it takes about 1/5 of his FP)

Tir
Better durability including substantial elemental resistances
More ST ID shots and gets them slightly earlier
Perfect MT ID
Better midgame/earlygame MT with Black Shadow
1-2 shots of OHKO damage late

The speed difference between the two is negligible.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:42:58 AM by dude789 »

SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1051 on: November 11, 2011, 06:11:27 AM »
Yeah, rather than price boost the speedy types, I'd be more in favor of price-cutting the slow types.  When Sonic Steel Tidus existed, there was a way to easily abuse a slow team, and I suppose there's still Firefly on a tank, or Jane for every team that wants to gamble on Floors 3-4 for an uber team on F5...  but slow characters are such a giant gamble.  You can sort of get away with it if you have a single speedy statuser on the theory that masses of average speed PCs can be controlled that way, and the dungeon is balanced around not having to blitz bosses turn 1...  but woe unto you when that status-user gets blocked, or when facing a ravenous pack of frail status-immunes you're supposed to blitz.

On that note I approve of the proposed discounts to Terra / Billy / KOS-MOS.  Maybe drop Yulie to 1.5 as well?  She's probably still a 2.0 in teams that can abuse FP Advantage, but still has that suspect durability + lack of speed, so I'm fine with Yulie at 1.5 that happens to synergize well with teams that use FP.  There are still plenty of teams that would prefer Eiko > Yulie - average speed vs. slow, doesn't explode to physicals, status options, good damage that doesn't involve hurting herself, Phoenix's MT revival, etc.  I already proposed a price discount to Lucca, and...  though I'm less certain of this, since fast Omniheal + Revival + options is always good, DQ8 Guv might be movable to 2.0, just because speed matters *that* much.

I was thinking of some kind of all-slow team as the dark complement of my current team next.  Suspect it would be amusing at least, but probably die horribly vs. the current Dungeon.  We'll see!

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1052 on: November 12, 2011, 08:39:49 AM »
So Neph, how would Body Charge work with the Twins? Fixed to one and cost 2.5? Switchable between the two and cost 3?
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1053 on: November 12, 2011, 05:22:01 PM »
Hmm... I could probably see it working on both and upping it to 3.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1054 on: November 15, 2011, 08:00:10 AM »
Does anyone know if Scias' revival was 100% chance? The first faq I found the skill list in noted "chance of revival."
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1055 on: November 15, 2011, 05:01:55 PM »
I want to say the first-level revival spell in BoF4 was 70%, but that might just be BoF3.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Yoshiken

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1056 on: November 16, 2011, 05:50:53 AM »
I'm finding something that says it can fail, so I'd assume there's a chance. Unfortunately, doesn't give exact odds, so.. mrf.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1057 on: November 20, 2011, 07:17:23 AM »
Drew this up for my potential use, but honestly don't remember some of these games too well. Anyone have any feedback on these gain lists:

DOROTHY
Healing Hand- F1
Dreamland- F2
Overclock- F2
Cleanse- F3
Heaven's Door- F3
Mirror Skin- F4
Power Boost- F5
Meltdown- F6?

PALOM
Cure- Start
Hold- Start
Slow- Start
Life- L11- Floor 2
Protect- L12- Floor 2
Cure 2- L15- Floor 2
Silence- L15- Floor 2
Berserk- L18- Floor 2
Blink- L23- Floor 3
Esuna- L24- Floor 3
Confuse- L25- Floor 3
Shell- L29- Floor 4
Dispel- L31- Floor 4
Mini- L31- Floor 4
Cure 3- 33- Floor 4
Cure 4- L38- Floor 5
Reflect- L44- Floor 5
Holy- L52- Floor 6
Life 2- L56- Floor 6

POROM
Bolt, Fire, Ice- Start
Sleep- Start
Piggy- 11- F2
Ice 2- 11- F2
Fire 2- 12- F2
Bolt 2- 13- F2
Stop- 14- F2
Bio- 19- F3
Toad- 22- F3
Quake- 23- F3
Drain- 26- F3
Ice 3- 32- F4
Fire 3- 33- F4
Bolt 3- 34- F4
Break 36- F4
Osmose- 40- F5
Death- 46- F5
Tornado- 48- F6
Meteo- 50- F6
Flare- 52- F6

SCIAS
Abilities :  Frost        Game Start
             Sleep        Game Start- MT SLeep
             ShiningBlade Game Start
             Heal         Game Start
             Purify       Game Start
             Confuse      Game Start- ST Confuse
             Ice Blast    Level 16 (Floor 3)
             Rejuvenate   Level 19- ST Healing (Floor 3)
             Raise Dead   Level 22- 70% Chance of 25% Revival (Floor 4)
             Remedy       Level 25- Status Healing (Floor 4)
             Blizzard     Level 28- MT Magic (Floor 5)
             Vitalize     Level 31- MT Healing (Floor 5)
             Lifestealer  Level 34 (Floor 6)
             Restore      Level 37- ST Healing (Floor 6)

Currently thinking of running this 4 plus...Ghastly? Not sure there. I added Scias because I realized my first idea was missing two things: Solid physical smashing and ID resistance. I really don't want to have Eiko in another team, but it's honestly hard to fight against the idea of another reviver (and MT) who also has that horde of (shitty in team, dungeon awesome) MT buffs. Ghastly is interesting, although there is enough elemental physicals running to around to make the quirk kind of whatever (Maybe if it really, really rapes sleeping opponents given that I also currently have more Sleep status than in necessary with 2 MTers and an STer, but don't it does).
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1058 on: November 24, 2011, 07:53:21 PM »
OFFICIAL POINT VALUE UPDATE TIME


Deis2 goes to 4.0
Celes goes to 4.0

Cecilia goes to 3.5
Virginia goes to 3.5

Benjamin to 3.0
Lenneth to 3.0
Ted goes to 3.0

Billy goes to 2.5
Chris to 2.5
Crowley goes to 2.5
Magus goes to 2.5
Nel to 2.5
Rune goes to 2.5
Terra goes to 2.5 (god there are a lot of 2.5s)

Rosa+Rydia combo added at 2.5

Amarant goes to 2.0
Cielo to 2.0
DQ4 Hero to 2.0
Jack goes to 2.0
KOS-MOS goes to 2.0
Luneth goes to 2.0
Stocke goes to 2.0

Angela goes to 1.5
Raja goes to 1.5
Yulie to 1.5

Emma to 1.0


Removed the following:

Arc
Jeff
Nate
Selan
Rennac (sorry RICHARD)



I would like to change Souji in some way that isn't a huge headache. Perhaps give him 1 Persona per floor (predetermined) and move his rank accordingly? I'm open to suggestions.

EDIT:

Some other possible ideas?

Yuna to 3.0
Ditto to 1.0 with Quick Powder as default (no one ever chose the other anyway...)

Mallow to .5?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 09:14:10 PM by Nephrite »

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1059 on: November 25, 2011, 04:16:34 AM »
Why did Crowley get bumped up? No one has really used him so far so there really isn't any evidence to suggest that he's overpowered. (I will admit, this is mostly for selfish reasons as it fucks up my team even with Jack going down in cost.)

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1060 on: November 25, 2011, 04:34:14 AM »
I've been waffling on him for a while, while no one has used him I think it has more to do with it being Suikoden 1 than him not being good. I might revise it. If anyone else thinks he's too high, please let me know.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1061 on: November 25, 2011, 09:06:49 AM »
Ooh, tempt me with Rosa+Rydia. Although...I guess they are slower and FF 4 speed is wonky enough that would still cause issues. Flip side, would at least take of eventually 2 ID Immuners, and leaves me some leeway still. Hmm, this opens up a lot more options.

I don't really think Crowley needs moving up. His pdur...is horrific (55% varying a little depending on scaling), and he doesn't cover a lot of niches. Compare him to say...Alakazam, and Alakazam feels like he's notably better (No MT Parasitic healing, but instead has speed, the best dungeon stat, notably better ST damage, status to tie up enemies, possibly equal MT and throws in a few buffs off that speed too). Or alternately, compare to Garnet, who doesn't have the parasitic healing, but instead has several statuses including MT ID and Revival, and is probably about 50% more physically durable to boot (She doesn't start with the damage, but ends up so much better). Oh yeah, Crowley also needs an extra argument to have any status resistance and arguably doesn't even start with the great spells to some.
...into the nightfall.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1062 on: November 26, 2011, 05:03:42 AM »
Oh yeah I'm adding those FF3 people at 2.0 (vanille) and 3.0 (Fang)

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1063 on: November 26, 2011, 05:10:02 PM »
Agreeing with Dhyer on why Crowley should be a 2.0 and also adding that Crowley is also completely shut down by wind resists which while not the most common thing, do exist.

Also, I think someone mentioned Whimsicott  a while back who could be a really cool addition for like a 2.0 or something. It essentially has a lot of neat tricks that have initiative along with really good speed, but almost no offense and bad defenses and weaknesses. 

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1064 on: November 26, 2011, 05:20:35 PM »
It seems like Whimsicott would need to be required to have access to all the non-damaging move TMs it can learn in that case... not really a problem or anything, it just doesn't seem to learn anything since it's an evolution.

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1065 on: November 26, 2011, 06:07:04 PM »
There's a couple of options. You could let them pick when to evolve Cottonee and then give them some Heart Scales in case they wanted to get both say Cotton Guard and Tailwind. In that case, I'd probably bump them down to a 1.5 because Cottonee's stats are really bad.

Alternatively, you could just give them a "new" Whimsicott on every floor that would be able to choose a skillset from both evolutions based on level. So for example, floor 2 would be about to level 18 or so so they could make a moveset from Absorb, Growth, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Mega Drain, Cotton Spore, and Gust. 

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1066 on: November 26, 2011, 07:26:03 PM »
The second idea seems like it could work. Also, I'll be putting Crowley back at 2.0, I didn't realize his durability was as bad as it is.

Yoshiken

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1067 on: November 28, 2011, 03:07:13 PM »
I'd really like that second idea on Whimsicott. Would be pretty hilariously fun, but Whimsicott's damage is horrendous. It would basically be an inferior version of Songstress, and we've seen how good Songstress can be on the right team before~

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1068 on: November 28, 2011, 03:23:29 PM »
He's a bit different. He's more ST oriented than Songstress and his big draw is that all his stuff has initiative including Tailwind.

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1069 on: December 02, 2011, 04:57:31 PM »
A few other thoughts:

Yuna to 3.0?
Cloud to 3.5 or 3.0 but remove Cover?


Ramza to 3.0? (This one... I dunno. Maybe if I could change Ramza into LFT Ramza?)

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1070 on: December 03, 2011, 03:16:27 AM »
I'm fine with Yuna to 3.0, I've always though she was overpriced.

SnowFire

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1071 on: December 03, 2011, 06:20:25 AM »
Yuna is a pretty good 3.0, but a pretty bad 3.5.  So sure, move her down and see what happens.  She's certainly pretty good in teams that don't care about missing out on MT and just want an infuriating fast healer / reviver / buffer that isn't easily killed, but the lack of MT is a notable hole for a 3.5.

Neo Cloud sans Cover sounds good to me.  Tonfa already figured out the ultimate Cloud build, since Cover is amazing in the Dungeon in a way that isn't quite true in-game.  While you're at it, get rid of Throw too - not sure anyone would actually pick it, but that's just asking for a headache.  Not sure if he should be a 3.0 or a 3.5 - same problem as Yuna, in that he feels in-between without Cover.  A very simple set might be something like Lightning - Revive - (Transform  - All) - a ton of HP-Pluses, which is probably not optimal, but you'd have an uber-tanky reviver who also statuses out the entire PC team when his turn rolls around - that's a very solid pick at 3.0, and you can probably do better.

Yoshiken

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1072 on: December 04, 2011, 01:51:01 AM »
Mm, I've always thought Yuna was hideously overcosted at 3.5. She's effectively a slight variant of Toadstool, without the ridiculous level of healing but with more variety in what she can do.  Possibly too much for 3.0, but as SF said, definitely bad for 3.5.

As for Cloud... Firstly, I think Cover really is that good in FFVII, just you kinda never need it. >.> That, and the dungeon naturally inflating things designed for a team environment anyway. Throw is a headache and a half, yeah. Otherwise... iunno, I guess Cloud works for 3.0/3.5? 3.0 seems a little too cheap for what he does, honestly, but I guess he's kinda average for a while? Still, the option for healing, decent damage on both sides and/or durability (depending on how long the team lasts), all with the Limits... that just seems a bit good for 3.0.

...No clue on Ramza~

dude789

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1073 on: December 16, 2011, 12:38:31 AM »
I was thinking, and the dungeon seems to have gotten a bit Rocket-taggy as of late and speed and offense are become much more important than durability and resources. In particular, having bad speed is a huge problem to work around for a character to even be viable. I think it would be a good idea to discuss some options for perhaps sealstone ideas, team members, or floor redesigns to perhaps make defensive teams a bit more effective.

The most basic sealstone idea I had would be a sealstone which gives a flat reduction to damage for both sides and reduces fatal status hit rates. Say a 50% damage sealstone where each side deals 50% of their normal damage and fatal status hit are halved. Would this be an interesting idea and if so what reduction should be use? 50% seems kind of extreme, but I was just using it as an example.   

Nephrite

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Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1074 on: December 16, 2011, 04:41:19 AM »
The real problem is that if floors are designed to support slower teams, then faster teams just smash them, and likewise, if I make them support fast teams, then slow teams get screwed.

I think I can find some compromise that involves durable bosses/PCs and floor-related buffs.