Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic! (Read 142365 times)

dude789 · « **Reply #1075 on:** December 16, 2011, 09:16:20 AM »

It's not necessarily slow teams, but defensive teams in general that have become more ineffective. I think it was Sage who got to floor ten with the core of Demi/Toadstool/Momo when the team first ran. He's been running a similar team with a few slight adjustments each time and has done progressively worse each time.

Yeah, durable PCs are an option, in particular ones with a variety of resistances so single element blitzing doesn't work as well. I think fights with more weaker characters with a variety of speeds could work too and emphasize healing a bit. Defensive teams would have an advantage by being able to split enemy turns and heal up their damage. Fast opponents who can set up defensive buffs but are otherwise not that threatening could work too.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1076 on:** December 27, 2011, 05:56:03 PM »

I'm moving Yuna to 3.0, Cloud to 3.5 and removing Cover from his list, and Ramza... I'm moving him to 3.0 to see how he does there.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1077 on:** December 27, 2011, 08:19:47 PM »

And as this was pointed out, Body Charge now applies to both people in a combo deal, but incurs a 2x cost instead of 1.5x cost.

EDIT: I mean that it still is 1.5x for one, and 2x for two.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1078 on:** December 28, 2011, 05:35:49 PM »

Oh yeah I'm putting Strago at 1.0.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1079 on:** December 28, 2011, 06:56:48 PM »

Strago at 1.0? O_o

SnowFire · « **Reply #1080 on:** December 28, 2011, 07:14:52 PM »

His damage isn't as good as you'd think due to the fact that most of his Lores don't ignore split damage and are forced-MT. (This is something I only realized halfway through the Dungeon, so I take back some of my Strago-is-Jagen hype comments involving Aqua Rake on F1-3 - it doesn't ignore split damage either.) He also only gets his utility lores on Floor 4 & 5. Above all, he's slow. Sour Mouth being Floor 5, ST, and slow means that it's more limited use than you'd think; you want to status a danger character *before* they take a turn, not after. Same with BigGuard: you want to use it right away before the pain comes in lest you plain get wiped before Strago gets a turn. (BigGuard is also only a 34% reduction, not a 50% reduction of damage. It doesn't really come up with my team with its overkill healing, but don't forget that Shell also reduces healing as well for teams with worse healing.) White Wind is, oddly enough, one of the selling points of normal slow Strago - he's encouraging enemies to have to beat him up or else focus solely on kills rather than spread damage, but there are still ways to work around it.

Strago is much better on my team, but that's because I spent my Sealstone slot to get him some speed so that BigGuard / Sour Mouth can be relevant. And Sealstone abusability isn't usually baked into the character prices. Speed is still the god stat in the Dungeon, so yeah, I'd say Strago's just a 1.0, and not even a particularly compelling one at that.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1081 on:** December 28, 2011, 07:56:07 PM »

Compare him to the other 1.0s. >_> And if -Raja- got bumped to 1.5 due to how insanely good a Light he is with some sealstoning, Strago is certainly benefitting just as much. For starters, he turns into an immediate BC-bait contender, even better than Raja was at 1.0.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1082 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:04:09 PM »

...actually, okay, yes, BC Strago would be brokenly good for the price, since that'd be Speed + damage + tankiness for Strago at the low price of .5 points. Take back my suggestion to knock Strago to 1.0 then unless Body Charge for 1.0s gets modded in the future.

dude789 · « **Reply #1083 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:23:20 PM »

Quick question, does Kyra's Medice ability affect the robots?

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #1084 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:31:00 PM »

dude789 · « **Reply #1085 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:44:54 PM »

Awesome, I'm trying to come up a good defensive team based off of Firefly/Worker 8 and Kyra seems like the perfect partner for him.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1086 on:** January 08, 2012, 09:04:02 PM »

Now that Fang and Vanille have been added and I've actually -played- FF13, I'd be curious to hear if anyone else thinks any of the other characters could make it in. Lightning strikes me as a pretty well-balanced person that would have a good role to fill... Hope could probably get by just on Medic alone. Sazh... um... has Haste, I guess? I dunno about him. Snow... just seems like an inferior Fang to me, so if anyone has any other opinions on that I'd be happy to hear them.

Also, if there's anyone else to be added I'd be happy to take ideas. I need to throw Whimsicott in at like a 1.5, I think.

dude789 · « **Reply #1087 on:** January 08, 2012, 09:33:20 PM »

Really everyone except for Lightning adds something interesting to the table. For Snow, Sentinel is a neat role and he's by far the best at it. Probably a 2.0 for him. Sazh is kind of lackluster in game, but the damage buffs are pretty devastating. Probably a 2.5 since he gets those pretty early. Hope is held back a bit by his bad health but he's also probably a 2.0 or so.

superaielman · « **Reply #1088 on:** January 08, 2012, 09:38:17 PM »

Sazh isn't worth anything in the dungeon, nor is Snow. Ravager being such a bad DL/dungeon class hurts there. Hope is... interesting, but the HP is a problem, as is late revival. I don't have a ton of medic respect in the dungeon, but Syn is good in the format. Hope I'd peg at 2.0.

Lightning's medic is pretty useful in a pinch, and she's a good commando. I want to peg her at 1.5 due to the lack of speed and durability, but 2.0 could work.

dude789 · « **Reply #1089 on:** January 08, 2012, 10:08:50 PM »

Faith gives Sazh a very potent and rare niche. Magic buffs have the potential to be very good in the dungeon because most sources of consistent MT damage are magic based. Snow is a neat defensive pick and we need more defensive options in the dungeon. Lightning is really the most boring of the bunch since all she has is damage and healing that gets pretty bad late.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #1090 on:** January 09, 2012, 12:49:44 AM »

As a defensive pick, Snow doesn't bring much that Fang doesn't already cover (And she avoids any early floor issues and she's notably better when opting for another choice). He can tank ST damage better I guess, but she's so much more useful. If you really wanted another defensive choice, I'd go for someone bad with a full Firefly Rune or something rather than put in a worse Lightning.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1091 on:** January 09, 2012, 01:45:48 AM »

Well, the thing about Lightning's Medicness is that as already noted, it gets *worse* in the last two chapters of FF13. And apparently by the time in the aftergame that Lvl. 3 weapons come out, she gets hurt damagewise as well (Floor 8-9 or so?). She's got good elemental variety but that involves going back to Ravager. I think she might be safe as a 1.0. There are some teams she'd be better than that in (teams that want to chain specific elements, FF13 theme teams that want to use Ravager to stagger enemies) but overall think she'd be safe there; if you just want a healer with damage options, Tear is still a better choice. (Okay except that Body Charge on 1.0s is still great and Lightning'd be an awesome BC choice. But ignoring that.)

Snow I think is interesting, but in general Firefly rune will be better since Snow has to set up his Sentinel Taunting, and some enemies arguably immune it. Maybe a 2.0, sure, Firefly + tank combo in one shot is valuable.

Agree with dude that Magic attack boosting on others isn't very common, so Sazh has that to fall back on if nothing else. (SH Yuri, SMRPG Geno, and sort-of WAACF Emma I guess?) Otherwise he spams averageish damage maybe a bit fast. 1.5?

Nephrite · « **Reply #1092 on:** January 09, 2012, 01:52:25 AM »

Don't forget Beowulf!

dude789 · « **Reply #1093 on:** January 09, 2012, 03:48:29 AM »

Of those listed, aside from Geno I believe Sazh's buff is the best of the bunch and he can put it on two people at once which is really neat. Snow's biggest defensive boon to the team is that he makes everyone else more durable in addition to a weaker Firefly effect and he also weakens MT damage by a good amount. Honestly, I'm all for adding all of them. They have real good synergy when working together and it gives ravager a bit more of a purpose when you have 2 or 3 characters building a chain guage.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1094 on:** January 09, 2012, 04:12:27 AM »

Sazh can't put his buff on more than one person until like Floor 5 or 6, though, unless I'm mis-remembering his ATB gauge segments.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1095 on:** January 09, 2012, 03:50:12 PM »

Honestly, even if Snow is a worse version of Fang... having another Sentinel option for a full-point cost difference makes him a worthwhile addition to the roster just for the sake of having more flexibility in building Defensive teams.

Additionally, Snow actually gets access to his Eidolon early enough that it might see use at one of the last battles per Floor, which could make an interesting blitzing / VBL option.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1096 on:** January 09, 2012, 09:23:32 PM »

Definitely. Dhyer's arguments earlier convinced me of the benefits of having a Sentinel around which is mainly why I used a slot on Fang during my recent team building but it's also been pointed out to me that Fang isn't really all that durable/fast anyway and Snow definitely does make a better team based defensive SEN than her what with higher HP, earlier Steelguard + Fringeward/Deathward combined with the unique SEN based weapons Fang doesn't get. He also ends up a solid COM in the end once he gets Adrenaline and Sovereign Fist. Djinn also raises a good point there about early summon~

Nephrite · « **Reply #1097 on:** January 09, 2012, 09:33:09 PM »

So what, tentatively I'd say:

Snow: 2
Lightning: 1.5 (She strikes me as having better damage than most of the other 1.0s, but your mileage may vary on that)
Sazh: 1.5? Not confident here
Hope: 1? Durability kind of sinks him a bit, but free healing is... well, it's free.

dude789 · « **Reply #1098 on:** January 09, 2012, 10:32:40 PM »

Bump Sazh and Hope up half a point. FF13 buffs are way to good to be on a 1.0.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1099 on:** January 10, 2012, 01:30:28 AM »

Sazh's Magic buff isn't THAT amazing (+40%), and crucially, unlike Geno, his buff goes off at best at average speed, or slightly slower than average. Sure, Faith + Haste will help somebody lay down some nukes fast in Round 2, but usual comment about the Dungeon and rocket tag.

Random thought: Fang makes Edgar look kinda bad at 3.0, since they both have slightly slower than average speed MT status, except Fang also has more status, Sentinel hax, good damage, etc. Sure Edgar's status is 100%, but it's just one unlike Fang's set.

I'd say -
Lightning - 1.5. See earlier notes, but on second thought, she really does get Revival at a halfway sensible time (Floor 3?), so that's enough for 1.5 straight-up.
Sazh - 1.5. Lightning but with buffs rather than healing.
Hope - 1.5. Hope is too good to be a 1.0 I think - he's the best healer in the game and can get something approaching MT fullhealing if he devotes his turn entirely to that. In general defensive buffs degrade less when cast later in the round, I think - offensive buffs are best when they can stop enemies from taking even a single turn, a la Geno -> Deis1 say. Infinite resources on a healer have their use too. (Trashy damage, sure, but can't have everything.)
Snow - 2.0. Yeah, Sentinel hype is better in the dungeon than Sazh's buffs or Lightning's healing since it's a pretty unique effect that can trivialize some fights.

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Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic! (Read 142365 times)