Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[DjinnAndTonic]

Another example, Lazlo from Suikoden 4 can use the 'Rush' ability whenever he builds up his limit meter and has a full party. This ability seems like it could be used once a floor as long as Lazlo's party members are all alive.

Well, is that a property of Lazlo or the battle system?  If it's a property of Lazlo, then yes.  If it's a property of the battle system, then no.  I don't recall specifics on it, but it did seem like a property of Lazlo to me I think?

Definitely a property of Lazlo. The Rush ability is always greyed out when you're using a ship party without him in it.

Still Suikoden, if two party members have compatible Runes, but come from different Suikoden games, can they still use combination Rune spells? Only applies to late floors in the dungeon anyway.

Umm, they're not compatible if they're from different games.  Some Suikoden games don't even HAVE combo spells.  I think only 4/5 did?  I guess you could argue the 4/5 combos across those two games IFF they're the same runes in both games and IFF they're the same spell in both games, etc.  I don't think this is the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1N8y3OmmVo <- They've been around since Suikoden II and always in the same manner, they were just less documented until Suikoden IV. Use a level 4 charge of one elemental rune with one user and use a level 4 charge of a compatible elemental rune with another user. It doesn't matter what the spell is, just that it is a level 4 charge (most noticeable in S3 with the elemental True Rune-users).

Along the same lines, but more of a stretch - if a Disgaea character uses a physical while 'standing next to' another party member using the same kind of weapon, would they be able to perform a cooperative attack? (No available Dis characters, but it's a purely academic question.)

Not the same lines at all.  Personally, it seems kind of weird to allow another character who does not have this "skill" to join in on a cooperative attack to do so.  Now, you could argue the other way around, when a character outside of Disgaea initiates the attack and the Disgaea character joins in.  That one makes more sense at least.

Though obviously if both are from Disgaea that should probably be allowed.

Ah, yes, I see what you're saying about it being more of a property of the Disgaea character. I can see both ways, due to how Disgaea works, but this way -does- seem more sensible.

A more hilarious question would have been: Can Disgaea 1/2 characters pick eachother(and one non-Dis character maybe?) up and perform Tower combos for massive damage bonuses?

-Djinn

[Nephrite]

I've been toying around with the idea lately of having package deals for certain Dungeon members. For example, Prince and Lyon normally are 4.5 points. However, I was considering putting them together as a 4.0, although it may end up being lower. I'm not sure... I was also toying with theme teams, something like Cecil/Edge/Rosa/Rydia/Palom as an entire team, but I haven't made any decisions on that.


In addition to this, I was considering reviewing the old penalty idea. Originally, you could add Jogurt to your team (taking up one of the 5 slots) but it would reduce the team cost by 1, effectively giving you an extra point to deal with. I'd like to bring this idea back in the form of "VP2 Sealstones."

For example:

Flames - Increases fire damage done by your team by 100%, but reduces the available points by 1.

Strength - Increases the damage done by your team by 50%, but reduces the available points by 3.

Life - Any healing effect now also allows for revival, but reduces the available points by 4.

Things like that. Ideas or comments are, as always, very welcome. 

[DjinnAndTonic]

I really like the VP2 Sealstones idea. Since Sealstones are not technically characters, does this imply that they do not take up space in the party? So that 5 characters + a Sealstone is possible?

In addition to Sealstones, would it be possible to add some Suikoden-like Support characters that also don:t take up party space? I think some of the S5 characters actually have decent abilities? This was mentioned with Jeane earlier, but perhaps there's a more useful one? Alternately, 0.5 on even slightly-reduced magic speed costs isn't bad if you end up with an unused 0.5 points.

I think the use of something like Sealstones really increases the dungeon-like feel of the... uh, Dungeon, so I'm all for it. ^_^

If there were GS or CC characters available for use, I'd ask about an elemental effect-type Sealstone, since these games have field effects (GS Lighthouses give the corresponding Adept continuously regenerating PP, CC characters obviously benefit from having a full field effect of their respective color). There aren't too many (if any) elementally aligned characters available in the dungeon (probably because it's too much of a weakness to be mono-elemental since too many enemies will wall your damage or exploit your weakness). Still, it was something that came to mind and I thought someone might be able to suggest something better along similar lines.

-Djinn

[Shale]

Agreed; sounds like a good idea. It'd be cool to have one set that takes up points and another that takes up party slots, too.

[superaielman]

Could be one that gives points too, it works both ways. I like it.

[Nephrite]

I really like the VP2 Sealstones idea. Since Sealstones are not technically characters, does this imply that they do not take up space in the party? So that 5 characters + a Sealstone is possible?

In addition to Sealstones, would it be possible to add some Suikoden-like Support characters that also don:t take up party space? I think some of the S5 characters actually have decent abilities? This was mentioned with Jeane earlier, but perhaps there's a more useful one? Alternately, 0.5 on even slightly-reduced MP costs isn't bad if you end up with an unused 0.5 points.

I think the use of something like Sealstones really increases the dungeon-like feel of the... uh, Dungeon, so I'm all for it. ^_^

If there were GS or CC characters available for use, I'd ask about an elemental effect-type Sealstone, since these games have field effects (GS Lighthouses give the corresponding Adept continuously regenerating PP, CC characters obviously benefit from having a full field effect of their respective color). There aren't too many (if any) elementally aligned characters available in the dungeon (probably because it's too much of a weakness to be mono-elemental since too many enemies will wall your damage or exploit your weakness). Still, it was something that came to mind and I thought someone might be able to suggest something better along similar lines.

-Djinn

For what it's worth, I thought I had added Riddel with elements... let me look into that one.

[Talaysen]

I think if you're going to do that, have some that give you extra points as well (as super suggested).  It increases the amount of options for dungeon teams greatly, and that's always a good thing!  Well, as long as it is balanced.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Sealstones that give points? Maybe more like 'Laws' from FFTA? (e.g. 'Cannot use Swords' - the penalty for doing so was damage? Can't remember, maybe it was being ejected from battle? Anyway, in the dungeon, I suppose if you chose a Law, you would receive more available points, but be stuck with the effect for the whole dungeon? It also doesn't take a party slot like Jogurt would, this would make for some very interesting teams, but balance would be difficult).

-Djinn

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Made up a few based on my quite limited game experience.   The Dungeon Master may change the value of the points penalty.

Fairy in a Bottle:  Allows for a 1-time Reraise (at 50% maxHP) for each Party Member per floor, but reduces the available points by 2.  (Full Heal Spots would not restore the Fairy.  DM may change this aspect.)

Merit Award:  Characters that could not normally equip heavy armor, etc. may now do so, but reduces the available points by 1.5.  Equipment would still be constrained by dungeon progress vs. In-Game.  (IOW, No Minerva for Relm on Floor 1, even with this enabled.)

Equipment Overrule:  Characters may equip any gear that they can equip in-game, regardless of DL-Legality, but reduces the available points by 1.  (Unless this rule is already in effect...)

(Please coordinate with your Dungeon Master as to specific Equipment Setups.  No equipment changes during floors, correct?)

First Strike:  All Characters get 1 free turn before enemies can attack.  Reduces the available points by 2.

Inversely...

After You:  All Enemies get 1 free turn before party can act.  Adds 2 points to the Party Allowance.  (From what I saw, you do not want the enemies to get a free turn on the lower floors...)

Time Limit:  All Characters start each Battle with a form of Death Sentence which bypasses all immunities and cannot be healed/dispelled/nullified/etc. (DM to set timer).  Adds 1 point to the Party Allowance.


In other news, what do you think of Recurring Bosses being allowed into a Dungeon Party?

[superaielman]

After You:  All Enemies get 1 free turn before party can act.  Adds 2 points to the Party Allowance.  (From what I saw, you do not want the enemies to get a free turn on the lower floors...)

I'm not sure there are enough points to make this worthwhile. Average speed is risky enough (Uno's the first person I've seen pull off a not blisteringly fast team), let alone that.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If you design your team as a bunch of slow tanks who are status-resistant, you might have a chance? Alternately, any characters with automatically activated skills could work well here (mostly thinking of FE counters, could be others... if you could get Belial on your dungeon team, you'd be set with this effect!) >.>;;

-Djinn

[Shale]

Unrelated to the current topic of conversation, but something I realized when going over the G2 stat topic:

It's never been important in the DL before to my knowledge, but now it might matter - does anybody know how Millenia's berserker rages work?

[Cmdr_King]

Not in any great detail.  I know it's limit-esque and builds based on her taking damage, although I think it also builds very slowly automatically over time as well.  When it's full, her SP is restored to full and she goes on AI.  Biased towards using Fallen Wings.  If enemies are near here, she'll use a move that knocks them back.  I think she gets faster too, but it's been a while since i've played close attention.  It builds pretty damn slow, tends to take a full dungeon to go from zero to rage.

[Yakumo]

I...don't think I've ever seen that happen. >_>

Is that a PS2 only thing or do I just not fight enough?

[Shale]

I'm guessing you just don't fight enough, because I have the DC version and I've seen it a bunch of times. If you've ever noticed a colored border around Millenia's portrait in battle, that's her limit bar (it kicks in when the border turns red).

[Yakumo]

Well, I'm pretty sure I've never seen Milennia on AI, but I really wouldn't be surprised if I just didn't get into enough fights to trigger it.

[Talaysen]

I haven't seen it either so you're not the only one.  >.>

[DjinnAndTonic]

Not in any great detail.  I know it's limit-esque and builds based on her taking damage, although I think it also builds very slowly automatically over time as well.  When it's full, her SP is restored to full and she goes on AI.  Biased towards using Fallen Wings.  If enemies are near here, she'll use a move that knocks them back.  I think she gets faster too, but it's been a while since i've played close attention.  It builds pretty damn slow, tends to take a full dungeon to go from zero to rage.

It -does- take a while to build, unless she's getting damaged a lot. When it happens, her face icon starts flashing red and there's a short sequence where she's yells her frustration. She goes on AI, normally attacking with her strongest skills and spells, which IIRC get a significant boost in power.  How much? I totally don't remember...

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

Seal Stones! Looks like I may have to load up VP2 again to brush up on my general VP2 knowledge. I remember some of those Seal Stone effects being pretty hax like Dylan doing 70'000 damage whilst refighting the Hydra >.>

Equipment Overrule is already in place I think. At least I know I allow characters to equip non DL legal stuff in the dungeon like post game weapons when they get there <.<

If Sealstones/Laws/etc come into place I assume the difficulty of the bosses per team would be adjusted as well? Or at least with the floor options? Some people may not want to use anything, for example I'm fairly happy with the points allocattion for the new team I've came up with for now >.>

Djinn RE elemental field effect things I'd been thinking about that before you brought it up actually though with different specifics. For example if Meru was added to the dungeon and there was a team of Rose/Meru/Sharanda then they would then be able to access their Dragoon Special providing all three of them had enough SP for that. It would change the field to dark/water/light depending on which of them triggered the special and their own spells would do more damage (and yeah the field effect would effect opponents) Not sure if other non LoD characters with the same element should be allowed to do more damage, hadn't thought of that before >.>

[muakaka]

I'd like to make a few suggestions....

Well, regarding the rankings, I think that Ryu4 needs to drop to 3.0 instead.
He doesn't really get going till about Floor 2 or 3, and his game HAS a level limit of 50.(Besides Fou-Lu)
After Floor 7 or so, he doesn't get any more powered up than he can be, and dragons giving him extra life bars aren't exactly that useful when he doesn't have the AP to last without full heals.

And Virginia probably should get ranked at 4.5 or something. Look at what Snow did to those poor floors before Floor 7.

And now for a few ranking ideas....

Fou-Lu 4.0(BoF4 PC)
Pros: Begins with Royal Sword. Gains first Dragon at Floor 2, with good MT, reliable ID and Aura Smash from Tyrant is ITD. Faster than his boss forms by a large margin.
Cons: Has MP troubles if he uses Tyrant, doesn't offer much besides pure damage and MT. His strength tapers off at the aftergame floors, to the point where he's only a really good Heavy.

Levin 3.5(Wild Arms XF)
Pros: Speedy. Broken against slower people like-you-won't-believe. Turn-cancelling works on bosses.
Cons: Hates good evasion, and durability is okay at best. Can run out of MP in the long run, since he doesn't recover after each battle in the Dungeon.

Gale1 2.5 (DDS1)
Pros: ID whore with Wind damage. Has Curse and Stone, which are just BRUTAL status. Also can revive, and near-limitless MP.
Cons: Durability is only above average, status besides ID have bad hit rates, cries if enemy resists Wind and Death. Earlier floors, ID isn't that good, as is only a secondary damage dealer till Mudoon. Lightning and status mauls him.

Gale 2 3.0 (DDS2)
Pros: Tanky and quite fast. Gains HP boosts with his physical Mantras, and eventually RESISTS PHYSICALS. Critical rate is obscenely high, which works with Press Turns for brutal effect. MT charm, confusion and stone physical skills, has good Wind and later, Fire damage.
Cons: Needs to be healed every turn or so if he uses those physical skills. His status hit rates aren't very good, lightning and status mauls him.

Tear Grants 2.5 (TotA)
Pros: Decent healer and reviver. Enhance Cast is just sexy, and so is Holy Song. Has good damage once she gets her Pendant back at Floor 4 or so. Running out of TP is actually a chore.
Cons: Her healing's not full healing, and she's heavily reliant on Holy and Fire damage. TotA status blockers are crap. Force Field interps may vary, as well as her 2nd Mystic Arte. People think spell casters are slow.

And for the heck of it.....

Ash 3.0(Phantom Brave)
Pros: Damage up the wazoo. We're talking about solid OHKO per turn, and near-G.Dragon damage on his Solemn Vow turn. Also has Initiative to instantly take out someone. Durability's quite good.
Cons: He lasts five turns. No, seriously. His damage doesn't get that EVIL until Floor 3 and onwards unless you allow him swords from the beginning. Also, interpretation troubles about reviving him. One-dimensional damage, and Heliotrope is gained late. No MT kinda hurts too.

And for a suggestion for the Sealstones thing...(inspired by Persona 3 and DDS XD)

One More! : OPB, can be used to instantly give 1 member a double-turn on their turn. Reduces available points by 3. (So, it's a little different.... But it's too broken in P3 with that Knock Down and stuff)
Press Turn : Hitting an enemy's weakness nets you a Press Turn, given to the next person to act on the team. Likewise for your enemy. No effect on points.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Some more possible Sealstone equivalents while looking over *gasp!*Pokemon items. 

Expert Belt:  Increases damage by attacks that exploit an elemental weakness by 50%, but reduces the available points by 1. (DM may increase as he sees fit.)

Choice Band:  Characters must use the same attack each turn (can choose on Turn 1) but that attack's damage increases by 50%.  No Point Penalty.


As for new characters, I think I've found a way to incorporate FF8 PCs into the Dungeon.  And I'd like to thank Relm for showing the way.

The PC would choose 5 GFs upfront from a group of 15.  Eden would be excluded from this selection group.

The PC would gain the respective GFs over the following intervals:

Floor 1:  Quezacotl, Shiva, Ifrit
Floor 2:  Siren
Floor 3:  Brothers, Diablos, Carbuncle
Floor 4:  Leviathan, Pandemonia
Floor 5:  Cerberus, Alexander
Floor 6:  Doomtrain, Bahamut, Cactaur, Tonberry

The PC would also upgrade his/her weapon and limits over the course of the Dungeon, with final weapon by Floor 7.

One thing I need to note:  NO MAGIC!  Not for Drawing, Not for Casting, Not for Junctioning.  It's just too complex.  Also, no items.

Also, as I have them, most Commands (basically all but Card and Devour) and certain abilities (Stat+% and some Auto-X) would also be allowed.  Subject, of course, to In-Game Limits.

For the after-game floors, Eden would become available and all GFs would receive a bonus to SummonMagic stat and GFHP.  (Boost is too interpretation-dependent.)

Squall w/GFs, Commands, and Abilities:  3.5
Pros:  Choose among GFs.  On Floor 7 and after, has a 25% chance of decimating a single foe at low HP.  Certain combinations of Abilities and Commands actually make this guy viable.
Cons:  GFs take forever to summon on early floors.  CRIES to Status.

Other PCs with Commands and Abilities would be 3.0.  For GFs Only, Squall would be around 2.5, with other PCs being 2.0.  Meat Shields only go so far...

[Clear Tranquil]

Choice Band sounds awesme - would that be for everyone in a team or would you pick a character to give it to?

[dude789]

Choice Band sounds awesme - would that be for everyone in a team or would you pick a character to give it to?

I think it would only work if it was for the entire team. Some characters only use one attack.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

The made-up Spellstones that I made-up should apply to everyone on the team.  Note that for Choice Band each character would select 1 attack from their respective skill sets, but they're stuck with that attack for the whole battle.  (Resets after each Battle.)

BTW, if the DM wants to change the names of those last two suggestions, feel free.

I also have notes on the FF3 Jobs and how they could apply, if anyone's interested.  The key to my proposal is "Quadrants of the Jobs Chart"  (Lawful Warrior, Chaotic Warrior, Lawful Mage, Chaotic Mage, Onion Knight)

[dude789]

I was looking over the list of character choices and I noticed that there's only a .5 difference between Bartz and the chemist and only a 1.0 difference between Bartz and the blue mage. I can see people not allowing Bartz to use all of the chemist skillset, and even if they did, it takes a few floors for it to be accessable, but one of Bartz's starting job choices is the Blue Mage. I don't see many people picking the blue mage when they can have the rest of the FF5 skillset for only a point more.