Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Dhyerwolf]

Yeah, pretty much Raja+Speed Seal stone=physical durability doubler off good speed right at the start. With plenty of floors that are kind of anemic on the whole for magic damage. Dual Shields doesn't really help him so much (I mean...because he's at 0.4 PDur DL wise. Dual Shields bump that up to about 0.55), but the speed options combine too well with him for a 1 since the skillset is too awesome considering his main flaw is fixable. I got through a whole floor with just the threat of Raja at discounted durability! Raja at 2 would not be the worst, although there could alternately be tailoring to seal stones, etc. You may not pick Raja alone at 1.5, but there are plenty of cheap healers who don't particularly gain much with speed seal stones.

I'd say Deis 2 is certainly better than some 4's looking at it (Cecilia, for one. I'd certainly take her over Orlandu too).

[Nephrite]

This may be a case where it's time to do some reorganization of people again.

[dude789]

I'd say Deis 2 is certainly better than some 4's looking at it (Cecilia, for one. I'd certainly take her over Orlandu too).

I'd say that's more of a case of Cecilia and Orlandu being a bit overpriced than Deis being worth 4.0 though.

[SnowFire]

Deis2, Cecilia, and Orlandu are all in the 3.7-3.8 territory, yeah, so it's not shocking they can fall on either side of the line.

Brief reply to Namagomi's commentary on Bleu / Deis: Deis1 is kind of a Jagen for the early floors of the dungeon.  Yes, she doesn't learn any new spells for awhile, but that isn't something to complain about; she effectively starts with Floor 4's repertoire on Floor 1 (although I guess you could make up some kind of spell learning progression if you were hardcore).  BoF1 spells are fixed damage so this means she has insane, insane overkill on Floors 1-2.  Even if you take her performance at join time and scale it to that - start at floor 4 basically - she's merely awesome rather than broken, then.

[17:47] <@Nephrite> When anyone comes through: Glance at the full list of people and tell me if anyone jumps out as being terribly bad in terms of ranking.

WAo Cecilia: I feel nervous recommending this, but think she can go to 3.5?  Totally broken skillset of doom, but she's below average speed with nothing special on durability.  This is enough of a drawback to knock her to 3.5.  (Plus, she nukes her damage-dealing options if she goes for Parasol late.)

Luneth: Nobody's used him.  3.0 was a bit high anyway since the versatility isn't THAT good; there are other options for mages or knights, and Fang will offer Viking Provoke+++ much earlier.  Warrior/Dragoon/Viking/Sage are the most hypeable but eh, none of them feels more than a 2.0.  Knock him to 2.0, see what happens.

Zerase: Nobody's used her, either.  I considered her, but her status is bad and she doesn't get MT magic until a bit later in the Dungeon.  And she lacks evade to make up for her suspect durability.  With Sasarai / Red XIII / Feena / Garnet all offering reasonably speed magic damage at 2.5 AND more options, I think Zerase can go to 2.5 as the "pure damage speed mage" choice.  (Popoi...  well, he's average speed, but he has even more options than the rest of 'em, and possibly questionable transform hype, so.)

Amarant: Has anyone used him?  I guess moderately fast Auto-Life has its place but he can probably get a slight discount.

Lucca: Good skillset, miserable speed, which as usual is fatal in the Dungeon.  Can probably be a 1.0.

Gilder: Nobody's used him still despite the discount to 1.5.  He can go to 1.0 - Aura of Denial is too late to entirely rely on for status defense since it costs 3 SP.

Also add Vanille & Fang.

[074]

...I didn't even -know- Amarant was in the dungeon.  Though I wouldn't be able to use him due to not having played FF9.

[dude789]

Yeah, one of Deis1's advantages is that she doesn't have a down period. Her spells start out strong and only get stronger as the game goes on. She also is really good around floor 4-5 because of her crazy level rate and she gets BoltX before the rest of the cast gets their best damage options.

[dude789]

Right now, it seems that the BoF4 characters are rarely used so what if we gave them the option to take a one time 1 point cost upgrade to get enemy and master skills for all the BoF4 characters on the team. So for example, if you wanted to get Nina with Master and Enemy skills it would cost 4 points or you could get both Nina and Ursula with master skills for a combined total of 6 points (3 for Nina, 2 for Ursula, 1 for skills for both). This seems like it would make them more interesting since it would diversify their skillsets and encourage using them together to take better advantage of the combo system.

[Nephrite]

That is certainly an interesting idea and could potentially be expanded on if enough people liked it.

[Talaysen]

Honestly just give one of them the skills and increase the cost accordingly.  There's no reason to throw a special rule like that at BoF4 when you could do the same thing with many games (almost all of them).

[dude789]

BoF4's combo system is pretty unique and I think it really justifies the special rule for them. Most of the characters don't get a whole ton of benefit from the combo system by themselves but it leads to some interesting stuff when you have more characters with the skills. Also, most of the casts' skillset is so limited that it's difficult to get some cool stuff going when only one person has the skills. Since only one member of the team can have each of the skills it helps to limit some of the more potent skills like Warshout or Shadow Walk.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

In the dungeon, they won't get much benefit out of the combo system either because you don't get to manipulate the turn order in it like you do in-game. Moot.

[Magic Fanatic]

Because Neph mentioned that SH2's Lucia might be having Crests available sometime in the near future...

Any spell on a crest that unlocks on that floor will have the [!] indicator.  Any spell on a crest that unlocks on another floor will be in parentheses.  Any spell that is on a crest without the use of the Key of Solomon will be unmarked.

-
Floor 1

1  - Focalor: Hail Beak, (Hail Breeze)
2  - Andras: Mirage, (Hail Beak)
3  - Furfur: Gale Spin, (Cure)
4  - Barbatos: Air Edge, (Earth Edge)
5  - Vassago: Surge, (Evil Ray)
6  - Crocell: Cure, Aqua Edge, (Raise Up)
7  - Haures: Red Rave, (Red Blaze)
8  - Amy: Heat Edge, (Entrance)
9  - Sitri: Rage, (Red Rave)
10 - Zepar: Shield, (Rock Rot)


-
Floor 2
-Extra spells now available for:
1-Focalor, 2-Andras, 3-Furfur, 5-Vassago, 6-Crocell, 7-Haures, 8-Amy, 9-Sitri, 10-Zepar

11 - Bathin: Heal, Holy Edge, (Cure)
12 - Gremory: Barrier, Bright Light[!]
13 - Agares: Earth Edge, Rock Rot, (Rock Storm)
14 - Raum: Dark Edge, Evil Ray, (Evil Born)
15 - Sallos: Gale, Gale Spin[!]
16 - Murmur: Raise Up, (Resurrection)
17 - Forneus: Surge, Barrier, Mirage, Aqua Edge[!]
18 - Vepar: Hail Beak, Bright Light, Gale Spin[!]
19 - Beleth: Rock Rot, Red Rave, Evil Ray[!]
20 - Purson: Bright Light, (Dark Edge)
21 - Aim: Rage, Shield, Gale, Heat Edge[!]
22 - Uvall: Arc Cure, Heal[!]


-
Floor 3

23 - Phenex: Raise Up, (Holy Edge)
24 - Berith: Evil Born, (Surge)
25 - Ose: Hail Breeze, (Mirage)
26 - Marchosias: Gale Spark, (Gale)
27 - Camio: Rock Storm, (Shield)
28 - Bifrons: Arc Cure (Cure All)
29 - Dantalion: Arc Barrier, (Bright Crime)
30 - Balam: Arc Mirage, (Hail Breeze)
31 - Andrealphus: Aqua Edge, Heat Edge, (Entrance)
32 - Botis: Earth Edge, Air Edge, (Gathering)
33 - Furcas: Red Blaze, (Rage)
34 - Eligos: Bright Crime, (Barrier)
35 - Halphas: Entrance, (Air Edge)
36 - Zagan: Rock Rot, Rock Storm, (Earth Resist, Rock Strike)


-
Floor 4
-Extra spells now available for:
4-Barbatos, 13-Agares, 14-Raum, 20-Purson, 23-Phenex, 24-Berith, 25-Ose, 26-Marchosias, 27-Camio, 29-Dantalion, 30-Balam, 34-Eligos, 35-Halphas


37 - Marax: Cure Plus, (Arc Heal)
38 - Sabnock: Arc Shield, Rock Storm[!]
39 - Seere: Gale Spin, Gale Spark, (Air Resist, Gale Spike)
40 - Leraje: Arc Rage, Red Blaze[!]
41 - Andromalius: Bright Light, Bright Crime, (Holy Resist, Bright Banish)
42 - Ipos: Arc Gale, Gale Spark[!]
43 - Haagenti: Hail Break, Hail Breeze, (Aqua Resist, Hail Crash)
44 - Alloces: Arc Surge, Evil Born[!]
45 - Asmodeus: Dark Resist, Evil Crest, (Bright Crest)
46 - Belial: Red Rave, Red Blaze, (Heat Resist, Red Cradle)
47 - Paimon: Evil Ray, Evil Born, Dark Resist[!], Evil Summoning[!]


-
Floor 5

48 - Naberius: Gale, Gale Spike, (Arc Gale)
49 - Cimeies: Earth Resist, Heat Resist, (Arc Heal)
50 - Amdusias: Shield, Rock Strike, (Arc Shield)
51 - Vapula: Rage, Red Cradle, (Arc Rage)
52 - Vine: Mirage, Hail Crash, (Arc Mirage)
53 - Foras: Cure All, (Raise Up)
54 - Valak: Barrier, Bright Banish, (Arc Barrier)
55 - Glasyalabolas: Surge, Evil Summoning, (Arc Surge)
56 - Buer: Arc Heal, (Cure All)
57 - Stolas: Cure Plus, Arc Heal, (Arc Cure)
58 - Shax: Air Resist, Dark Resist, (Gathering)
59 - Decarabia: Aqua Resist, Holy Resist, (Cure Plus)
60 - Ronove: Hail Crash, Bright Banish, (Aqua Edge, Holy Edge)
61 - Amon: Heat Resist, Red Crest, (Hail Crest)


-
Floor 6
- Extra spells now available for:
16-Murmur, 28-Bifrons, 31-Andrealphus, 32-Botis, 33-Furcas, 36-Zagan, 37-Marax, 39-Seere, 41-Andromalius, 43-Haagenti, 46-Belial, 48-Naberius, 49-Cimeies, 50-Amdusias, 51-Vapula, 52-Vine, 53-Foras, 54-Valak, 55-Glasyalabolas, 56-Buer, 57-Stolas, 58-Shax, 59-Decarabia, 60-Ronove

62 - Marbas: Gale Spike, Evil Summoning, Air Edge[!], Dark Edge[!]
63 - Malphas: Entrance, Gale Spark[!], Bright Crime[!]
64 - Valefor: Cure All, Heal[!]
65 - Bune: Resurrection, Heal, Arc Cure[!]
66 - Samigina: Cure, Resurrection, Cure Plus[!]
67 - Orias: Rock Strike, Red Cradle, Earth Edge[!], Heat Edge[!]
68 - Astaroth: Holy Resist, Bright Crest, (Evil Crest)
69 - Gusion: Holy Edge, Dark Edge, Gathering, Resurrection[!]


-
Floor 7
- Extra spells now available for:
45-Asmodeus, 61-Amon, 68-Astaroth,

70 - Gaap: Earth Resist, Rock Crest, Gale Crest[!]
71 - Baal: Air Resist, Gale Crest, Rock Crest[!]
72 - Orobas: Aqua Resist, Hail Crest, Red Crest[!]
73 - Solomon: Melt Crest

[Nephrite]

Here are some thoughts on point values:

Deis2 goes to 4.0
Celes goes to 4.0

Cecilia goes to 3.5
Virginia goes to 3.5
Geno goes to 3.5
Jerin goes to 3.5 (not confident in this one)

Ted goes to 3.0

Billy goes to 2.5
Magus goes to 2.5
Terra goes to 2.5

Amarant goes to 2.0
Jack goes to 2.0
KOS-MOS goes to 2.0

Raja goes to 1.5 (I know this one is controversial)

[Random Consonant]

I don't think moving Jerin up to a 3.5 pick is a particularly good idea, given the weakness of her start and the time it takes for her skillset to become notable in the dungeon.  Raja moving up, man, for all that he's great support, the whole frail/slow/weak to fire/has nothing *aside* form support still makes me leery.  Everything else I can't muster up strong enough feelings to care to comment on.

[dude789]

Keep Geno as a 3.0. I don't thin he has the resources or durability to be worth the 3.5, even with the fast ID. I don't think there's enough difference between him and Alys to justify the difference in points. Same with Jerin. Right now, it just looks like you're raising the point values for characters who were on successful teams and I don't think that's a good main reason to change the point values given the relatively small amount of teams that have used the characters. 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Jerin up to 3.5 makes absolutely no sense, agreeing with Random there. She's a fast healer with okay durability, sure, that's pretty nice. But her skillset is shaky until at least floor 4, she doesn't get revival that early and her damage is always poor, not to mention she doesn't get bailout of doom like Demi's spammable MT healing+revival+statushealing or Toadstool ultracheap MT fullhealing+statushealing that's available at floor 1. She's fine as a 3.

[Nephrite]

Okay, Jerin and Geno can stay where they are.

[SnowFire]

Ted is a pretty darn good 3.0.  I made my suggestions already at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,1736.msg134691.html#msg134691 , but if you're knocking Ted to 3 I'd definitely knock Zerase to 2.5.  They're pretty similar, except Ted has healing and utility and way more damage come the later floors, while Zerase has a bit more speed.  Not really a contest.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Zerase has godlike MT instead of just "solid, then below average", though. She likely has non-elemental MT OHKO for a good three floors on the dungeon, which is just crazy bailout of doom, and she never doesn't MT 2HKO. Ted's healing, I dunno. He's just so -frail- and he really would rather stay on the offense.

[SnowFire]

Twinkling Star is ST, Comet is a column.  She only gets true MT with her lvl. 4 charge...  which happens sooner than it "should" if you set the Magic skill on her and pump skill points into, which is something, but it's still like Floor 4 at the earliest, unless I drastically misremember S5.  I definitely don't buy a MT OHKO with her, even when physical damage lags compared to the lvl. 4 spell spike.

Edit: Okay, she's better in the S5 topic than I recall.  That said...  I dunno.  I guess she can stay at 3, but it's still pretty one-dimensional.  I'd still be more hyped for Ted on a team than Zerase at the same price, but so it goes.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

She joins at like floor 3 and -already- has a L4. >_> Zerase's magic is a complete wreckball ramming into the S5 magic curve, and S5's magic charges in general are the most generous in the series overall, discounting high-mag PCs in S1.

EDIT: Actually, she might even join with -two- L4s, since the second L4 shows up in the mid-high 200s, and she has well over 400 Mag at endgame with default skills. Zerase's silly.

[Dark Holy Elf]

She joins with two L4s, actually! She should have the first by around Level 20, which is likely somewhere on floor 2 since those first levels come fast.

And yeah, Meteor Swarm is MT OHKO until floor 6 probably. My gut says that she's better than Ted (whatever @ frail healers, I suspect Zerase's silly mdur is worth more since it combines well with anti-physical tricks such as Saner, Cover, etc.) but it'd vary by team.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Edit: Okay, she's better in the S5 topic than I recall.  That said...  I dunno.  I guess she can stay at 3, but it's still pretty one-dimensional.  I'd still be more hyped for Ted on a team than Zerase at the same price, but so it goes.

You also underrate how horrendously she mangles the midgame - she is quite a bit faster than she is at endgame until floor 6 due to Cathari being a late PC, for starters (though you could have a full-cast scaling for the whole game, which is totally cool). Also, it's okay to be one-dimensional when your one dimension is one of the best things to have in the Dungeon. People consistently underestimate how godly high-profile crowd control is in the Dungeon, especially when it's hard to wall.

[Dhyerwolf]

Ones that stand out to me

Here are some thoughts on point values:

Deis2 goes to 4.0- Been discussed, this is fine.
Celes goes to 4.0- Hmm, on the other hand, not sure Celes really need to be a 4. Skillset is very good on the ST, but not as much on the MT. Hmm, I guess it's okay though, just feels like when you get to the end, not a lot of bang for your buck in terms of a 4.

Cecilia goes to 3.5- This is good.
Virginia goes to 3.5
Geno goes to 3.5- I'm actually cool with this, at least where Geno ends up. Speed is the dungeon stat, Geno is a lot of it (And MT damage, buffing to make someone else more damaging and more durable, and the ID). For the comparison to Alys...Alys gets most everything Rika does but Healing, Defense UP and Speed Down instead having MT Magic and Sleep. She's not...horrible as a 3.5). Resources don't come up a lot, but are his that bad?

Ted goes to 3.0- Good for at least a trial.

Billy goes to 2.5- Hmm, didn't particularly strike me as needing a downgrade, but at the same time, wasn't a great 3.
Terra goes to 2.5- I'll admit, odd that Celes is a 4 and Terra a 2.5. Terra has Morph for the dramatically better offense, Celes...gains stuff earlier?

Amarant goes to 2.0- Badly needed
Jack goes to 2.0- Hmm, really? I guess it might depends on when that status comes in, but he should have okay (if ST) options early.
KOS-MOS goes to 2.0- Fine

Raja goes to 1.5 (I know this one is controversial)- Could go higher!

I might also be okay if people who just generally had blazing speed were boosted. Didn't feel like it was fully factored in. Not necessarily everyone to say, but super speed is that great in dungeon as the enemies currently stand.

[Nephrite]

I probably should do an across-the-board increase of .5 to the speedier types.