Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic! (Read 142358 times)

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1100 on:** January 10, 2012, 05:20:36 PM »

Edgar also gets better status-blocker options than Fang, and I kneejerk he's more durable? Noiseblaster still makes him too good for a 2.5.

And apart from Sazh, I think all the FF13 cast is pretty interesting Dungeon-wise, so put 'em in. And Sazh, for completion at this point. It wouldn't be the first game to have its whole cast in the Dungeon (CT, WA/4, BoF?). Also, I would feel mildly racist leaving him out... >.>;;

Nephrite · « **Reply #1101 on:** January 10, 2012, 06:17:02 PM »

Sazh isn''t the worst person to go into the Dungeon ever, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

As for Edgar... yeah, he's just too good at 2.5. If Fang is that much better than he is, then she might warrant a 3.5 but for the time being I'm not so sure.

I also don't really know how Sentinel will interact with the Dungeon, I'm not too keen on them being able to pull a boss and then take barely any damage... especially since you can't do that reliably in-game with bosses. I dunno, I might be worrying too much.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #1102 on:** January 10, 2012, 06:28:38 PM »

Noiseblaster is much more accurate than status -ga spells, and that makes all the difference. Fang has a bunch of other advantages, yes, but NoiseBlaster is quite possibly better than her entire set.

superaielman · « **Reply #1103 on:** January 10, 2012, 06:29:49 PM »

Edgar is total dead weight past floor five or so, though. I donno if there is any way to fix that.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1104 on:** January 10, 2012, 06:57:20 PM »

I think Fang starts off too slow to be a 3.5, she doesn't even start with Steelguard or Slowga with the latter having other issues as noted.

The main appeal of Sazh I think is he starts off with the offensive buffs much earlier than Hope does including getting the Enelement spells earlier too, having the ability to give anybody an elemental affinity (from a pick of four elements) on any type of physical or magic skill is pretty neat.

Nephrite · « **Reply #1105 on:** January 10, 2012, 07:03:42 PM »

Quote from: Clear Tranquil on January 10, 2012, 06:57:20 PM

I think Fang starts off too slow to be a 3.5, she doesn't even start with Steelguard or Slowga with the latter having other issues as noted.

The main appeal of Sazh I think is he starts off with the offensive buffs much earlier than Hope does including getting the Enelement spells earlier too, having the ability to give anybody an elemental affinity (from a pick of four elements) on any type of physical or magic skill is pretty neat.

I think I'd agree with that. Edgar's Confusion being 100% is also a pretty big thing, since the -ga status spells are... um... well. I don't find them terribly impressive on hit rate. >_>

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1106 on:** January 11, 2012, 09:18:32 PM »

Agreed. It's why Hope makes a subpar secondary SAB because he only gains the 'Ga variants of the abilities with their low accuracy rates and high ATB costs (3 ATB) per cast. Fang/Vanille at least have the SAB specialist weapons which helps some though the debuff abilities are more accurate than the debilitation ones even in the AoE variants.

* Clear Tranquil takes opportunity to note Peppita also gets 100% MT chaos/charm/confusion with Panic Dance

Also wanted to note Peppita does have good damage even before Faerie Friend even from L1 with her counters and adding in Power Dance > etc chains later. Due to the damage modifiers of her base physicals/counters though she probably holds her own in the damage average without having to wait till FF to contribute in an offensive based team assuming all the other SO3 characters also start at L1 in the dungeon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_h77Rltj9A

(wheee robots, immune to non ID type status)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFYNbCAdI24

I was thinking though maybe SO3 speed interps and mere average durability (for those who don't consider her resistance to physicals with counters) might hold her back some and was wondering given Nel was also reduced in price just a while ago if Peppita maybe should be dropped in price to 2.5 and given how rocket taggy the dungeon has become if not Maria should not also receive a .5 cost reduction?~

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1107 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:09:23 PM »

Isn't Panic Dance like Floor 4/5, though? Edgar has Noiseblaster on Floor 2. (AKA, where status-vulnerable opponents still exist.)

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1108 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:47:09 PM »

I allow 10 levels per floor for SO3 characters so she definitely has it F3 for me

She learns it at L25 though so either way F5 does seem too late. F4 would work if people were less generous with level allowances there I suppose but then she would probably suck on F1/2 =/ Perhaps I'm being a bit too generous there but based on my experiences at the SO3 boards where the average level for Luther seems to be upwards of L50 to L70 I don't think I've been so that much. Not compared to the players there who seem to make it there life's mission to level up as much as possible to the extent some people have been L50 even before the final boss at the end of disc one

Hmmm I would say in general/on average though any less than 7 levels per floor would be too little and any more than 10 too much

* Clear Tranquil checks

Ok looks like the stat topic takes end game levels at L65 so it looks like I was more or less of like mind as OK when I did the level/skill guidelines for the SO3 characters in the dungeon. Those are on the wiki if you'd like to have a look Djinn (I remember now I added asteriks next to some skills which might be a floor later for those who allowed less levels per floor)

There is a bit of leeway there for those who take in SO3's Triple EXP factor from it's bonus system, those who don't and those who take a middle ground between it~

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #1109 on:** January 15, 2012, 06:33:38 PM »

With Peppita, I'd say it depends on if you punish her for joining underlevelled or not. A theoretical Peppita who is around all game would certainly pick up Panic Dance on floor 3, but in-game Peppita doesn't even join until the equivalent of floor 4 (which makes Djinn's comment spot on). I don't have a strong opinion on how to take this, just throwing it out there.

Noiseblaster is totally floor 1, for what it's worth. You can buy it less than an hour into a 30 hour game!

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #1110 on:** January 16, 2012, 02:03:22 AM »

If that is in play, she's also horrible until then too! Actually, Neph, that's kind of a general guideline question. How is scaling pre joining meant to be taken. I think it's same as however they join, but this makes Toadstool and Peppita atrocious for a long chunk of time.

SnowFire · « **Reply #1111 on:** January 16, 2012, 05:47:52 AM »

FWIW, I think I'd take into account how much of a penalty there is by the "end" of the joining floor.

If catching up is trivial - say, a Suikoden series character who for whatever reason joins underlevel and unequipped, but a trip to the blacksmith and 5 battles changes that - no penalty, pretend they joined up immediately. If a character takes some effort to catch up, but not an inordinate amount? A small penalty until it'd be overcome in game. By the end of Moonbase, Peppita / Sophia are probably still a bit underlevel and you had to take time to carefully not let them die at lvl. 1, so I'd give them a small stat penalty until Floor 5 or so. If a character is very hard to catch up and the slow start penalty is noticable until the very end, like say Nino? I'd probably start with a big penalty but tail it off to a small penalty and no penalty as if the character joined earlier than they did. So Nino would suck floors 1-2, and still have a small penalty floors 3-5, say.

The trickier case might be when a character does in fact need to be 'caught up', but the catching up is in DL-illegal skills... say VP2 Silmeria being bad because she doesn't have everyone else's cool (illegal) toys or, to a lesser extent, characters like Meliadoul / Orlandu needing to play 'catch up' on their job tree. No idea there, aside from maybe a small stat 'disrespect' penalty.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #1112 on:** January 16, 2012, 07:11:23 AM »

I honestly think characters like Peppita and Nino are just a bad fit for the dungeon. There are two "easy" solutions:

(a) Pretend they don't join underlevelled at all, and they'd level as if they'd been around all game.
(b) Hold them to their in-game joining performance, which makes them a complete and total liability until they join.

Neither feels reflective of in-game worth or feels like a nice dungeon transition. Snowfire's suggestion of some sort of compromise does make sense, but feels inelegant. I'd generally frown on most such PCs' inclusion in the dungeon unless people feel they offer something truly unique (Peppita, in her defence, is fairly unique, so she may be worth the effort. I don't think she'd be on my roster if I ran the dungeon but very obviously I do not and if people want her I'm not going to complain).

Toadstool doesn't feel like she needs to be grouped in there. Yeah, her non-speed stats are pretty bad at join, but not "overkilled by average damage" bad or even anywhere close. She plays the part of MT (status)healer for a long time before then and generally operates fine without any fancy scaling beyond "extrapolate her starting performance".

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #1113 on:** January 16, 2012, 12:50:07 PM »

Hmm yeah Peppita would definitely suck then probably more so and worth even less than the 1.5 Uno got her for. Everyone seemed to think that after Uno's performance she was way underpriced so I assume that people weren't assuming a full stat level/penalty there (though maybe Dhyer was! ^_~) Not even sure that even I would waste a 1.0 slot on her if she was held to a full stat penalty there and that's saying something. Not even with counter hype + a free Common Support/Attack Symbols thrown in >_> Actually maybe I would for the overkill average damage with Power Dance > Faerie Friend chains post F5/6 and I suppose Power Dance is still worthwhile in general on the later floors but yeah not picking her status up till late would be a huge detriment because it would be pretty much worthless by the time she did pick it up except for the ID maybe in limited scenarios - and it's the status for which people mainly respect her for in the DL~

The way I do it is that all characters from any game, regardless of the stage of the game or the level they join at start off at L1 in the dungeon, like Nyarly's is an RPG and everyone is starting off equally on an adventure through the dungeon =) That might just be me though >_> I do allow characters any skills they might have when they join in game though.

I would be fine with small penalties too though I think. Peppita does need to pick up at least Frozen Daggers/Power Dance by F3 to be worth more than puny cost ranges however <_< In my case I probably wouldn't be too harsh with the Moonbase penalties, probably less so on Peppita than Sophia because at least Peppita has invincibility granting counters + actual damage/status at/on L1 (as shown in the no item creation L1 counter video I posted, granted you actually have to leave Moonbase in the case of the status to find non status immune enemies >_>) if the player takes the time to use her/master her style at L1 - but then I'm biased ^_^

Thanks for the input peeps =)

Nephrite · « **Reply #1114 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »

Quote from: Dark Holy Elf on January 16, 2012, 07:11:23 AM

I honestly think characters like Peppita and Nino are just a bad fit for the dungeon. There are two "easy" solutions:

(a) Pretend they don't join underlevelled at all, and they'd level as if they'd been around all game.
(b) Hold them to their in-game joining performance, which makes them a complete and total liability until they join.

Neither feels reflective of in-game worth or feels like a nice dungeon transition. Snowfire's suggestion of some sort of compromise does make sense, but feels inelegant. I'd generally frown on most such PCs' inclusion in the dungeon unless people feel they offer something truly unique (Peppita, in her defence, is fairly unique, so she may be worth the effort. I don't think she'd be on my roster if I ran the dungeon but very obviously I do not and if people want her I'm not going to complain).

Toadstool doesn't feel like she needs to be grouped in there. Yeah, her non-speed stats are pretty bad at join, but not "overkilled by average damage" bad or even anywhere close. She plays the part of MT (status)healer for a long time before then and generally operates fine without any fancy scaling beyond "extrapolate her starting performance".

I agree with this for the most part, but have been willing to make compromises with characters who are interesting enough. Nino... is probably not interesting enough and I don't think anyone's used her anyway, so I should probably just axe her.

To Dhyer's question: The way I've always seen it is they level up like normally but any unique items/equipment/whatever that makes them entirely broken (Orlandu's Excalibur, for example) would wait until that person would physically join in-game.

It isn't a perfect solution but for the most part there aren't -that- many individuals that have that problem (Or don't start with abilities anyway)

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1115 on:** January 16, 2012, 10:49:52 PM »

I think Chris is one example that translates badly too. As much as I like her, the fact that she doesn't get TWR until late makes her such a boring pick. She'd be interesting if she's grandfathered in a TWR from F1, but otherwise, it's hard to use her.

Are there any S2/S3 Water Rune Mages that we can use instead? I want to use SL in the Dungeon, dammit!

SnowFire · « **Reply #1116 on:** January 17, 2012, 03:38:55 AM »

Djinn, Chris does have the TWR explicitly hacked in, so pick her. (Or uh Beecham I guess?!).

Also I kind of assumed that Nino gets a moderate interp as well since she's costed as a 1.0. A harsh Nino interp makes her useless or a 0.5, while a pretend she joins immediately with no level penalty interp makes her a 2.0, so.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1117 on:** January 17, 2012, 04:25:51 AM »

Right, well. Complaint rescinded. Go Chris!

The rulings on these sort of things keeps fluctuating, I should have checked first... >.>;;

Nephrite · « **Reply #1118 on:** January 17, 2012, 04:44:38 AM »

Quote from: SnowFire on January 17, 2012, 03:38:55 AM

Djinn, Chris does have the TWR explicitly hacked in, so pick her. (Or uh Beecham I guess?!).

Also I kind of assumed that Nino gets a moderate interp as well since she's costed as a 1.0. A harsh Nino interp makes her useless or a 0.5, while a pretend she joins immediately with no level penalty interp makes her a 2.0, so.

It's more that Nino really doesn't bring anything special by herself, honestly. I could just include, say, Erk and get the same result. I'm a Nino fan, though so that's why she ended up in in the first place.

I do tend to take liberties with people who are at least moderately interesting (Chris is an example of this).

SnowFire · « **Reply #1119 on:** January 17, 2012, 04:51:16 AM »

And much as I'm not a fan of Nino hype, she is an interesting character in the Dungeon, I think. You get a liability on the team for floors 1 & 2, and a not-great investment of points from floors 3-4... but she's okay on floors 5-6, and she's one of the most cost-efficient picks in the Dungeon if you think you can make it to floor 7 & the aftergame. (For all that FE7 doesn't actually have an aftergame, unlike FE8, I think it's beyond question that Nino would be really good at it.)

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #1120 on:** January 17, 2012, 11:57:00 AM »

Being interesting in a suckass way does not constitute as actually interesting. It just means nobody's going to bother ever.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1121 on:** January 18, 2012, 11:50:25 PM »

Reading elfboy's ffx boss topic, I have a request: I wanna see overdrive Sin in the dungeon, like floor 2 or 3. Kill it in ten turns or less or suffer game Over! Simple, but fun, I think.

Random Consonant · « **Reply #1122 on:** January 18, 2012, 11:56:20 PM »

how about not and put in something that's actually interesting instead

dude789 · « **Reply #1123 on:** January 22, 2012, 03:50:05 AM »

Since Snowfire's team has shown us how potent Celes is in the dungeon, I think we need to find another bonus to give her for the floor 8+ bonus. Most Celes's setups will be similar to the way Snowfire has Celes set up now (with a few exceptions if you have some specific team combination planned.) With this setup, Celes's skillset is practically Blue-Like at floor 8. She has MT OHKO with Ultima/Quick, MT ID with Raiden, healing, revival and a ton of buffs and status. The big tradeoff is that Blue can completely invalidate a floor with overdrive, but Celes's defense abilities are really potent and more than make up for any advantage the once per floor Overdrive may provide.

As a result, I think we need to come up with another Floor 8+ bonus for Celes. Marvel Shoes eliminate one of the few disadvantages she has (average or slightly below average speed) and the auto protect/shell make her defensive game even more ridiculous.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #1124 on:** January 22, 2012, 04:48:26 AM »

I didn't think there was a "set" Floor 8 bonus? When I got to F8, I was given the option to request some twinking options and they were judged as acceptable or not. Somehow, Final Attack + Phoenix was considered acceptable for a Cloud build.

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Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic! (Read 142358 times)