Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!  (Read 144143 times)

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1150 on: February 10, 2012, 05:48:02 PM »
Everyone seems to be pretty interested in the Tidus fight since it takes a somewhat specific set up to get past it. I figure it might be fun to analyze which characters could be helpful in shutting that fight down. I'm not familiar with all the characters so if there's another good counter feel free to point it out.
Godlikes:
Souji: Masakados is pretty much a hard counter. It makes him immune to physicals and learns Enduring Soul and Jane and Clarissa don't have the magic offense to kill him over twice. He can then revive anyone who died after gaining control of the fight.

Bartz: Masamune gives him initiative and he has the tools to neutralize the fight with that turn.

Blue/Timelord: Overdrive if necessary.

Deis2: Is stupid fast and if she get's a turn Tidus is getting blown up. Clarissa will have her hands full trying to rob her turns.

Orlandu: Auto Haste is a pretty solid counter to Slowga, forces Tidus to use initiative Hastega and Jane to immediately use Follow Me or else Clarissa is gone. Even better at getting Clarissa's attention then Deis.

Borderline Godlike:
These two are kind of shaky, but if you see Cecilia as blocking Rob Turn that really helps. If you only let Rob Turn steal one of Dorothy's turns that also helps.

Heavy:
Yuna: Yuna's got great evasion and speed. She can't shut the fight down single handedly, but she's tough for the trio to take out.

Emily: Similar to Deis, enough offense to take out Clarissa off of killer speed. High evasion is a nice bonus.

Nina1: She can throw out an initiative buff which can save a team, initiative healing is pretty neat too for the fight. Her magic counter armor also helps a lot.

Ramza: Auto-Potion is wonderful in this fight, not the most reliable thing, but he's almost impossible to kill if Clarissa has already used Sacrifice.

Zalmo: Awesomely durable, slow immune healer.

More to come later, and while I know Neph dropped her from the list, Aegis would be hilarious in that fight for being a durable healer who's immune to Jane and Clarissa's attacks.

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1151 on: February 10, 2012, 08:01:29 PM »
Deis and Yuna won't really work. They can still be hit with Slow (unless Yuna resists), so speed will still suck and they'll fall into the same trap as everyone else. The evade won't work too well either, since Blitz Ace is ITE.
...into the nightfall.

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2207
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1152 on: February 10, 2012, 10:37:31 PM »
Yeah Yuna is not really a good choice just going off of a gutcheck since she's got no legal slow blocking (unless you can get it as an aftergame bonus I suppose), and FFX evade only catches physicals so she still gets her turns robbed and blown up by Sacrifice.  Blitz Ace ignoring evasion is just insult to injury there.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1153 on: February 10, 2012, 11:01:25 PM »
I'd probably give Yuna a Ribbon, for what it's worth.

Glen Veil

  • Just call me...
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 297
  • HO-UOU-IN K-YO-U-MA~
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1154 on: February 10, 2012, 11:44:57 PM »
I would Argue that Virginia can cause a decent headache for that fight, She's basically never taking a hit ever unless it's from Sacrifice or Blitz Ace, can do things like counter revive, counter heal, or just flat out Counter-Summon Nuke the fight into oblivion.  If she ends up the last person alive and say Tidus has no limit left and Clarissa doesn't have mp for Sacrifices because there were one or two other people on a team that needed that attention also, then she can kill two while evade mocking the fight for eternity, and then revive her entire team back up at not cost to resources.  Hell, considering it's floor 9 Sonic Steel Blitz ace could possibly tink if she opts for a defense boosting medium with the 100 fp stat bonus.

*Totally did not switch Virginia into his team for just in case he got that far and that fight was still there <.< >.> *

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1155 on: February 11, 2012, 12:17:44 AM »
Agree with Dhyer - being fast isn't helpful, being Slow-immune is awesome, since FFX Slow is such a brutal penalty, so Yuna & Deis aren't very special.  Deis especially so since she doesn't have revival and could just be ignored.  You cannot get enough Slow Immunity for that fight (or Initiative moves, sure).  Celes w/ Marvel Shoes is exactly who you'd want for that fight, actually...  fast, Slow-immune reviver who is also a deadly threat.  Just that gets dealt with by "Rob Turn Celes, blitz her down."  I'd probably have been fine had I had one more Slow-immune on my team, definitely two more.  (Feena is status-immune...  except...  since Talisman doesn't stop Grandia debuffs, it'd be strange to hype Talisman as stopping Slow because it's a status ailment while it does nothing against Cold or whatever the speed debuff is in-game.)  In MagicFanatic's case, that is the rare fight where trading in the Melt Crests for Crucifixes is the right call - it's hard to blitz down *two* Slow immune characters considering Clarissa runs out of Sacrifice gas fast, and Clarissa still needs to control the rest of the team, and his team is pretty resilient in that they can all heal & revive to reset the damage after the Dungeon team has blown their MP and Clarissa's HP.  (Of course, no Melt Crest would make that Violent Burst Law fight a lot more...  interesting...  so.)

Ramza is really the main spoiler I see.  Both Blade Grasp & Auto-Potion are good, he can equip an Aegis Shield to make Clarissa shy about Sacrificing him, he can immune Slow, he can set Item or White Magic as secondary, and Excalibur isn't an unusual F8-9 bonus.  (Not sure FFT Excalibur itself protects against Slow though, I forget.)  Otherwise, yeah, 2-3 slow-immune characters of reasonable scariness also suffice.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1156 on: February 11, 2012, 12:36:07 AM »
FFT Excalibur(/Setiemson) does not immune slow; in fact, it makes Slow super-awful because it effectively thirds your speed (Slow overwrites Haste).

Slow immunity is in general an extremely rare one (no way in hell do I see Feena immuning it with any Grandia equipment, that's for darn sure... Grandia has a speed debuff and it hits through them) so yeah, it's a nasty fight.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1157 on: February 11, 2012, 01:38:06 AM »
Yes, you'll note that I didn't hype Feena as immuning Slow in the topic, nor in my comment above, for the same reason.

On the Ramza note - if Ramza immune Slow and has Excalibur, does Slow still blow away Haste?  I'd think not.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1158 on: February 11, 2012, 01:38:50 AM »
Right, if he has the Diamond Armlet on (only way to block it for males IIRC) haste persists just fine because slow never lands.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1159 on: February 16, 2012, 08:47:26 PM »
While Deis isn't a hard counter to the fight, I'd still think that she's a bit more helpful than some of the other options. After slow she's only like .5 SD below average depending on how you see Slow working. Anyway, on to some of the lower options,

2.5s
Aika: Delta Shield catches slow and arguably Rob Turn and is initiative. Extremely helpful.

Chemist: Like Ramza, Auto Potion spoils the fight.

Magus: Speedy and I think slow immune? Hits Tidus's weaker defense as well.

Scarecrow: Same argument as Dorothy.

Tidus: Magic Counter and Evade and Counter make him difficult to damage. If he gets Sonic Steel as an aftergame bonus than that just shuts things down.

2.0s
Ayla and Crono: Like Magus, slow immune and speedy. Both have weak forms of recovery.

Jane: Follow Me givers her a speed boost. I'm not sure if it's quite initiative but it helps. More info is needed on how Follow Me works to see how strong a counter she is.

Snow: Sentinel is nice for the party wide durability boost even if he doesn't get a turn. He should definitely have some Medic skills by aftergame, but I don't recall if he gets revival. Summons could possibly come into play if the previous fights went on long enough.   

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1160 on: February 16, 2012, 11:05:08 PM »
Follow Me has initiative, albeit initiative of middling priority compared to the other initiative moves in the game.  (For, uh, all those times you want to use both Accelerator AND Follow Me, because the voices in your head told you to.  This came up in the full division team matches.)
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4023.msg78608.html#msg78608
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 11:13:33 PM by SnowFire »

Talaysen

  • Ara ara~
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2595
  • Ufufu~
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1161 on: February 16, 2012, 11:51:17 PM »
While Deis isn't a hard counter to the fight, I'd still think that she's a bit more helpful than some of the other options. After slow she's only like .5 SD below average depending on how you see Slow working. Anyway, on to some of the lower options,

Slow makes the target get turns half as often.  Period.  How the speed stat works in the target's game is irrelevant.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1162 on: March 01, 2012, 06:14:13 AM »
I won't grandfather this in, but does anyone have any objections to giving Ramza Calculator at Floor 6 instead of Mime?

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1163 on: March 03, 2012, 02:35:05 AM »
Bah, forums ate my reply.  Not really a fan of FFT Calculator in the Dungeon.  It's too random and too much of a headache, yet insanely powerful when the randomness can be controlled.  Kind of like Gau, except better.

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1164 on: March 03, 2012, 04:02:28 AM »
I don't think it makes a difference that much. Ramza is usually going to want to go physical, and even if he goes magical, it's a tremendous time investment to get a solid selection of spells and then you have to actually stay in Calculator for a floor on floor six or above. Ramza's going to be a tremendous liability for that floor especially since it's one of the later floors where you need all hands on deck.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1165 on: March 03, 2012, 04:08:23 AM »
Fair enough.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1166 on: March 04, 2012, 12:32:30 AM »
I think Calculator is way less of a headache than FFT Mime itself, which is incredibly position-reliant in a non-position-based setting. At least Calculator's CT abilities can be predicted in a completely non-random way. (I probably wouldn't respect Exp/Level/Height arguments for calculator in the dungeon, but YMMV.)

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1167 on: March 04, 2012, 12:43:10 AM »
I'd also think that it's a bit less overpowered  than it is in game because the dungeon isn't quite as rocket taggy as FFT and not enough games have the elemental resists/absorption that make stuff like CT5 Holy so effective as a blow up the opponents and heal everyone at once option.

Magic Fanatic

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • As if it wasn't already.
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1168 on: March 09, 2012, 05:34:21 AM »
Thought:
Deis2 - 4.0
Cecil - 2.0 (Firefly)
Hilda - 2.0
Ricardo - 1.5
Ditto(Quick Powder) - 0.5
Nall - 1.0

Hilda has Entrance.  Ricardo has MP recovery, MT healing, and decent buffs.  Cecil is a tank.  Deis2 is a nuke.  Ditto is Ditto, and Nall's there to ensure that Cecil's up to absorb hits at the start of each fight.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1169 on: March 09, 2012, 06:55:09 PM »
That team feels like it could use a better ST healing option, given your strategy. Cecil's going to be coming back at 1 HP, sure, but without anyone to heal his beefy HP quickly he'll just be killed again in subsequent fights often. Of course I could be overestimating the early floors since once Hilda's Happiness Gift and Full Bloom come into play this flaw is greatly reduced.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1170 on: March 09, 2012, 07:19:37 PM »
That team feels like it could use a better ST healing option, given your strategy. Cecil's going to be coming back at 1 HP, sure, but without anyone to heal his beefy HP quickly he'll just be killed again in subsequent fights often. Of course I could be overestimating the early floors since once Hilda's Happiness Gift and Full Bloom come into play this flaw is greatly reduced.

Hilda's healing form is also slow which leaves a lot of openings for round one pokes on Cecil. Deis blowing things up doesn't occur till the second round either which is troublesome since the team is quite vulnerable if Cecil goes down. 

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1171 on: March 10, 2012, 01:57:08 AM »
Sorry for the double post, but I've been looking over some of the characters to see who can get the most milage out of Body charge. For now, I'm just gonna focus on the .5s, 1s, 2s, and 3s since the 1.5s and 2.5s don't justify the cost increase as well.

.5s
Rena: Rena likes the durability and speed increase as it puts her above average by both. It also makes her healing a bit more impressive, but now she's competing with the light healers and using a sealstone on a .5 is a pretty big sacrifice.

Hero: Fairly straightforward, turns all that average into a bunch of above average!

1.0s
Tia: One that's been used before to great affect. Makes her really fast and helps turn her durability from hideous to bad. Gives her pretty solid damage as well.

Yukari: Yukari gets a pretty solid boost from Body Charge. Makes her a sort of budget Jerin trading the tricks for a bit more damage and a lightning weakness. Good value for a 1.5.

Lemina: Body charge doesn't do enough to boost her speed above average, but she appreciates the durability boost and the damage, especially late is pretty disgusting. She also has buff options as well.

Mia: Similar to Lemina but trades a bunch of damage for speed.

Adray: A lot like Rena except just better. He appreciates being speedy and more durable and it really helps his solid buffing game. He also absolutely shreds opponents MP in the aftergame.

2.0s
Crowley: Makes him speedy and changes his damage from solid to pretty intimidating. Since Shining Wind also heals the team, he'd work well with Nall.

DQ4 Hero: Still below average speed but not by much and hoo-boy does Lightning sting with Body Charge. Those with below average MDur are liable to be OHKOed by it and he's tough as nails with Body Charge boosting his already good durability.

Hilda: Hilda surprised me. With Body Charge, she becomes one of the best healers available. Due to SH3's small speed spread, she's above average with it by a decent amount and has tons of health and defense in her Curvy Form. A couple miscellaneous buffs and 100% ST ID round out a good versatile package. MP could be an issue though.

Mitsuru: Mabufudyne hurts a lot with body charge and now it's coming off of good speed. Still kind of one dimensional but she packs a hell of a punch.

Nina2: Like Mitsuru, but not completely out of luck if the opponent nulls ice. Trades some durability and healing for ID which is a fair trade really.

Vanille: The speed buff means that she can set up Deshell and Deprotect before the slightly above average speed smashers act. This is pretty nice and she appreciates the durability and early game healing buffs.

3.0s to come a bit later and maybe some 1.5s, 2.5s as well.

Magic Fanatic

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • As if it wasn't already.
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1172 on: March 14, 2012, 02:52:48 PM »
Scrapping the surrounding premise of the previous team idea, but keeping the basic theme.

Deis1 (3.5)
Rydia+Rosa (2.5)
Hilda (2.0)
Jane (2.0)
Nall (1.0)

Resourceless starting on...  I guess Deis or Rydia, maybe Jane for a dump character until Jane picks up Follow Me, which then transfers the stone to Hilda and then proceeds to just smash fights.  Deis carries me until I get far enough for Follow Me.  Nall makes sure my dangerous speedsters can get a turn before they have to die again.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1173 on: March 20, 2012, 11:28:13 PM »
For what it's worth...  I think FE10 Elincia would be an interesting addition.  Has an interesting quirk (Amiti multi-hits so defense is important against her), a weakness (bows / wind), options in damage vs. healing, and Authority.  I'd gutcheck a 2.0 to a 2.5?  Less raw broken damage than Ephraim, less dodging than Lyn, and arrow weakness comes up a lot in the Dungeon, but Authority & healing are pretty cool to make up for it.  She's also vaguely Marcus / Jagen-like for cheesing Floors 1 & 2.

The one bit of slight wackiness is that Elincia isn't on the team for Chapter 3, the longest chapter in the game, so it requires a bit of squinting for that period.  Also, I believe Meeple's stat topic slightly undersells endgame Elincia, since she's level 10 there...  but she's a pre-promoted to tier 3 unit, so that means she gained a mere 9 levels in-game.  I'm actually not wholly on board with equal-XP, but Elincia & Sanaki (& Bastian & Volke) deserve a level bonus no matter what since having them end the game at level 10 implies you barely used them.  (Elincia is lvl. 19 vs. a lvl. 12 average in Dark Holy Elf's equal-XP list, and would probably be lvl. 19 vs. a lvl. 14 or so average for me since I'd let the Dawn Brigade members catch up to the level 10 stat topic minimum.)

Rough outline:
Floor 1, 2- Slim Sword, Heal Staff (Elincia is grotesquely over-statted as a tier 3 unit but her damage is still meh thanks to the bad sword.  Good luck hitting her or dealing damage, though, and she doubles everything.)
Floor 3 - Amiti, Wind Edge, Mend Staff (2-E, gets access to a shop.  Uber offense with super-speed and damage, but can now actually die.)
Floor 4 - As F3, but less so.  (Alternatively, Unarmed Guest for whom it is game over if she dies form?!!!)
Floor 5 - Recover Staff, Restore Staff.  Let's squint and stick 4-2 as floor 5 worthy.  These are technically for sale in Chapter 3, but Chapter 3 is big enough to extend into Floor 5, and Elincia isn't there to receive the purchase, so questionable legality for F4.  (Not that Elincia ever cares about the Recover Staff unless her magic stat has been hugely debuffed or something, Mend is full-healing even for the tanky.)  Any Elincia starts gaining levels here so transitions into wherever you see endgame Elincia.

As for the Authority stars...  what does +15 Hit and +15 Avoid do?  Well, see
http://serenesforest.net/general/truehit.html
The +15 Hit is pretty good so long as you have at least a 50% chance of hitting.  A 50% hit rate becomes a 76% hit rate, a 70% hit rate becomes 89%, and a 90% hit rate becomes 99%.  In the same way, the +15 Avoid helps the most when you're already a bit dodgy.  A character from a game with no evade against a vanilla attack has the 100% hit rate become a 95% hit rate thanks to Elincia, hardly an inspiring boost.  However, even 10% dodge (77 Fire Emblem Hit) becomes 29% dodge (the reverse of the 70% Hit -89% hit case).  A character like Yuna, who has 68% physical evade (=40 Fe Hit), sees that jump to 87% evade (=25 FE hit) and has 5% magic evade tacked on.

Another minor bit of wonkiness is what to do in case of Elincia death.  Obviously this gets finnessed in the dungeon since Lyn / Ephraim deaths are always game over, too.  The death of any FE10 commander is always game over for you, but there are some fights where defeating an enemy boss with authority stars doesn't end the battle, and sure enough enemy team members lose the Authority Star bonus in that case.  I'd definitely deny the authority bonus while Elincia is dead, and quite possibly throw it away for the rest of the battle if Elincia ever dies just on flavor grounds, since zombie commanders isn't an issue that ever comes up in FE10.  Would be willing to be convinced one way or the other, and doubt it would matter anyway.  Since Authority Stars don't stack and only the "leader"'s stars are relevant, I'd definitely argue that any other character that requires an equivalent "leader" position is out of luck.  (e.g. pick one: FF13 Summons -or- Elincia's Authority.)

As for if Hit / Avoid matter against status like Sleep Staves...  uh...  I have no idea.  (It'll certainly help against Venin Swords, but that's an evadable physical with 100% poison attached obviously).  Dark Holy Elf?  Anyone?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:35:21 PM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!
« Reply #1174 on: March 20, 2012, 11:49:48 PM »
Res, not evade, matters against status staves in FE10. The only status attacks in FE10 which evade works on are ones that are already attached to damage-dealing attacks making a hit check, such as Venin weapons and Deadeye.

Idly: Sanaki doesn't actually get much of a boost from equal exp, just one more level. She's not that overlevelled when she joins; according to the spreadsheet I have which I used to calculate these things: the Greil Mercenaries are all also already tier 3 (including Haar etc.), as is Sigrun, while the Crimean Knights, Ilyana, Tauroneo, and Tanith are all close. Obviously depending on who you pour extra exp into in a given playthrough the specifics can vary, but in general the average level going into part 4 should be high tier 2.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.