Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Mad Fnorder]

Giving Blue weapon masteries, even, can be weird. I imagine one might take floor 3 swords to get the defensive techs up to save Blue from his disastrous Pdef a bit.

[DjinnAndTonic]

;_; No FE Bard?

Blue and Relm sound like particularly interesting picks.

Why did you take out Rei!? ;_;

-Djinn

[Nephrite]

author=DjinnAndTonic link=topic=1736.msg30223#msg30223 date=1219796639

Why did you take out Rei!? ;_;

No one used him.

None of these are concrete additions or subtractions, just ideas I have.

[SnowFire]

Ugh, I'd forgotten Kurando doesn't have Tsukiyomi in that first dungeon.  Plotwise he's just hiding it, right?  Eh.  Yeah, that makes him an awkward fit for pricing in the dungeon unless he's arbitrarily declared to get Tsukiyomi on Floor 2 or the like.

Re Larsa: Yeah, he's weak even for a 0.5.  I hadn't noticed Rand in 0.5, and Larsa's speed advantage over Rand is almost always going to be canceled by his bad late-dungeon durability.  Wouldn't hurt to add him, but yeah, his only role would be for teams that really want to abuse Void / Silent Lake, or are really worried about the early floors where Rand might not be so great.

I wouldn't be in favor of removing Alena, but I would want to lower her cost.  Alena is basically Ayla except with slightly better damage, less durability, and completely one-dimensional (no Kiss or potential Double-techs).  And Alena costs 3, while Ayla costs 2.  (Then again, Alena respect around here still seems way higher than my memories of the game, even accounting for the double-attack weapon she gets I didn't use.  I guess she's better if you hype high turn-based speed as turning into doubles quickly?)  Knock her down to 2, and I might well want to use her myself.

Removing Malak & Gau seem like a wise idea.  Nobody's going to trust Malak's random damage; he's pretty much strictly worse than DW1 Hero.  And voting Gau is tricky, because he's a high cost pick and I'd want to give credit for that....  and even the randomness can be dealt with, but the bigger issue is that figuring out what Rages Gau would have access to is a nightmare.  Nobody maxes out their Rage list every time the story advances, but that would seem the only consistent way to do Gau, and that's still a headache.

Miranda isn't a 1; she's a weird 0.5 pick.  Horrific first-turn damage, and a first turn spent not really doing much of anything even later in the dungeon.  Not acting really quickly tends to be horrifically fatal in the Dungeon, and even if the fight's still winnable on turn 2, it's not like her moves are THAT broken.  I'm not sure she'd even get picked at 0.5.

Not really a huge fan of VP2 Rufus; knowing which status attacks are gotten when strikes me as hard to keep track of.

For Jude, I'd just like to point out that the Cons section isn't strictly true - if you have Yulie on your team, there's the ol' Gather->Joint Assault combo, along perhaps with a few other ways of setting up JA.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Just a note about XF Sacred Slayer, her durability is quite fine. Speed and damage are what she lacks. 1.5 is probably a bit low? Dunno if you can justify her with the current XF vote draw, for all that I like the idea.

[Talaysen]

Regarding Larsa:

Last I checked, we don't scale temps to non-DL legal stuff.  Therefore, Larsa is going against whatever non-DL legal stuff you happen to allow the cast, and I'm pretty sure this doesn't include HP+ augments and the like.  Strikes me as a bad idea because of this, since defining DL-legality for FF12 is a pain in the ass.

[Clear Tranquil]

Blue o_o

**

White Silver Dragon is broken. Miranda is clearly LoD's MVP. Considering it in general does more damage than additions *and* fully heals the party all in one go uhh yeah. Gates of Heaven is pretty badass too, 75% MT healing + revival. She starts off with Moonlight for HP recovery/full revive too. Due to such goodness once she gets going I'd be uncomfortable with her at a 0.5 Though I'd definitely pick her for that cheap (if she fits into my next team build up that is >.>)

Eh ... Dhyer? Shirley's Shrine is two dungeons before the end of disc one ;p Shana has her dragoon for return to  Hellena and the Black Castle.

*confused*

Miranda/Albert also start off with all of the spells Shana/Lavitz had as well so I'd definitely see them having Moonlight/Wing Blaster at least.

The only issue I'd see with Maria is that her worth fluctuates with how good you are with comboing her vs. comboing with others.

Most players don't have a problem comboing with Maria >.>

I mean, for my part, I found that simply sticking +50% Attack Up on her close-weak attack allowed me to brutally stun-lock a lot of enemies - the two quick kicks cost like 5 Fury, so you can get 20 off while locking one enemy.

... I don't have a problem with that <.< I don't see why anybody would since it's basically just Maria attacking till she runs out of fury. I think the general interp is that SO3 characters can attack/combo till they run out of fury anyway. So she could either Scatter Beam combo until she runs out of fury or do that. I'm not sure short weak beats out L10 Scatter Beam 300% spam for damage though even with Increase HP damage by 50%. I'll need to check. Yay another excuse to play more SO3~

If you mean infinite though then no. I tend to throw out more hardcore ARPG aspects like stunlocking, juggling, infinites when it comes to games like SO3. I mean could you imagine doing this in Neph's dungeon? >.>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EqkZ8OEXko

The only thing I don't throw out is Albel/Peppita's counters since countering is a basic concept that is understood/allowed in general due to Fire Emblem counters and such things.


Larsa- Yes!

Larsa + Nall!?

xD @ Djinn.

Maybe if there were six places with four left extra >.>

With five the remaining three would have to be *really* good to justify Larsa and Nall taking up two places ;p


Relm - Yes! This news makes CT happy. Relm with magic - nukage!

Alicia- Eh ... dunno. Not very good support in my opinion considering she doesn't get revive for ages. Not that good for power or support. Rufus I haven't used enough to comment on.

Adray - At 1.0? Sure. He's generally pegged as SO3's LVP anyway. Slow, bad armour, bad damage without juggling. As Dhyer said he fits the mold more as a stock healer/reviver than Sophia. All you'd really be wanting to pick him for anyway is his support spells considering he can't cancel combo his best offense spells like Sophia can. Better healing/reviving/support spell casting times than Sophia too. For stock healer/reviver my vote goes to Adray over Sophia.


Maria at 2.0 and Peppita at 1.5? ... guess ... that works? Maria does start with Berserk ... She definitely isn't worth a whole point over Peppita though. Peppita as a support character and Faerie Friend blows her out of the water. Maria may be able to get in two/one and a half SB chains for a Power Dance > Faerie Friend in game but this is turn based ;p

Oh! Forgot to mention before that Maria starts off with a horrible weapon - the Microblaster with low ATK power/fire elemental damage. Unless people see allowing Maria a better weapon from item creation off the bat (which can be done in game) she's stuck till where I see Pulse gun from Blue Dragon Zombie which is F2, same with Peppita, bad equips unless she's allowed capes that can be made on disc one. Their support spells are still going to be good right off the bat though so eh.

[dude789]

I was thinking that for floor three it may be best if you swapped Lulu and Flik's positions so that Flik was on the ST floor and Lulu was on the MT floor. MT OHKO is a bit harsh off of good speed for floor three and Doublecast is a bit cruel for a floor intended for characters to only be able to target one person a turn. If they were swapped, teams would have a little more time to take out Lulu before she MT OHKOs the team and Flik and Yuna would probably only be able to kill 1-2 people instead of 2-3.

[Nephrite]

I was thinking that for floor three it may be best if you swapped Lulu and Flik's positions so that Flik was on the ST floor and Lulu was on the MT floor. MT OHKO is a bit harsh off of good speed for floor three and Doublecast is a bit cruel for a floor intended for characters to only be able to target one person a turn. If they were swapped, teams would have a little more time to take out Lulu before she MT OHKOs the team and Flik and Yuna would probably only be able to kill 1-2 people instead of 2-3.

I have changed Lulu to Rydia for the ST floor, but I see what you're saying. I'll see if I can think of something else for that fight.

[superaielman]

Alena'd be a fun pick at 2 I think. That seems balanced. I'm also probably going to scrap my current team (It -should- win the duengon if I can get to floor 4, but it's boring.) and go with something else. Mmm.

[Yakumo]

Miranda isn't a 1; she's a weird 0.5 pick.  Horrific first-turn damage, and a first turn spent not really doing much of anything even later in the dungeon.  Not acting really quickly tends to be horrifically fatal in the Dungeon, and even if the fight's still winnable on turn 2, it's not like her moves are THAT broken.  I'm not sure she'd even get picked at 0.5.

Hmm.  Most of this is technically correct, but there is one thing.  SP in LoD carries over between fights, and after a point(not sure when it would be if you used them a lot, I didn't) they have turn 2 Dragoon availability.  So really, unless they need to heal or something on the first fight of a floor, they could store up a turn or two of SP and then abuse LoD defend until they need the Dragoon form.  I would definitely see SP carrying over between fights, and the first fight of a floor is rarely -that- dangerous.  The downside, of course, is that most of the time she's not doing anything, but she's hard to get rid of, LoD defend is freaking awesome.

[Cmdr_King]

Sharanda's power in-game is she's got the obscene magic score to abuse broken-ass LoD attack items with.  The good speed, magic tanking (since major LoD bosses tend strongly towards magic) and WSD being good stuff are just perks by comparison.
So uh... she'd be an interesting option if someone felt like crafting lists of available items for her each floor I guess?  But otherwise doesn't work in the format, for all I'd agree with Yakko here.

[dude789]

Would Blue get life magic at floor 7 as well?

[Nephrite]

Would Blue get life magic at floor 7 as well?

Yes.

[Clear Tranquil]

So uh... she'd be an interesting option if someone felt like crafting lists of available items for her each floor I guess?

Sure, I could do that. If Neph legalises it that is~

Since it is something she's known for in game it may be worth incorporating here even though characters are not allowed to use items in general >.>

Adding attack options suddenly makes Meru a viable option as well though!

Based on the several LoD playthroughs I've been doing lately I think I'd peg Miranda having Gates of Heaven by F4, her dragon by ... floor 6? Perhaps I'm being a bit too generous there but considering Sharanda learns their spells *quick* in game due to their speed and their SP increasing a substantial amount each their d spirit levels ... yeah. There's even the Wargod's Sash (raises SP gain by 50%) for those that view it as legit in the dungeon!

Otherwise ... say Miranda gets GoH on F5 and her dragon on F7. Meh in that case I'm not sure Shana wouldn't be the more viable option considering she'd get the spells earlier. She can still equip Angel Robe (50% chance of revive) and equip most of the good stuff (Tiara and Jewelled Crown for MAG boosting, Sparkle Dress for chance of gaining SP when hit, etc) A lot of stuff is available before Miranda joins. What she would miss out on is the W Silver armour, the Rainbow Dress and the dancer's equips. I personally would allow her access to them anyway since it's obvious she *can* equip them but for those that don't ... obtaining the spells earlier to help get past the earlier floors might be worth it, dunno.

**

Guidelines for Maria and Peppita

Peppita first since I mostly remember her level learning rate off the bat

F1
 Magic Hook, short O, counters, Critical Hit,

F2
Frozen Daggers, Power Dance, Critical Hit MP, First Aid, Standby Healing

F3

Instanto Blast, Panic Dance

F4

Kaboom, Berserk, Increase HP damage, Increase MP damage

F5

Healing Dance

F6

Faerie Friend

F7

Magical Dance

F8

Dream Hammer

Maria-

F1
Scatter Beam, Aiming Device, Berserk, Protection (she starts with Protection iirc?), Standby Healing

F3
Power Up, Magnetic Field, Increase HP damage, First Aid, Critical Hit MP, Critical Hit, Reflection.

F4
Triple Kick, Pulse Blast

F5

Crescent Locus, Angel Feather

F6

Laser Blast, Gravity Bullet

F7
Energy Burst

F8/9
Radiation Bots

The SO3 characters have been Tonfafied~

Holler if a guideline list is needed for Adray. Also I'm not sure just how many of those SO3 characters Neph is planning on adding so maybe we should have a vote? ;p

Just in case - Peppita, Maria for me.

[Nephrite]

Holler if a guideline list is needed for Adray. Also I'm not sure just how many of those SO3 characters Neph is planning on adding so maybe we should have a vote? ;p

One for Adray would be great. The plan is for Peppita, Maria and Adray, since they're all pretty unique.

[Taishyr]

After some thought and trying to incorporate him into a team, I'm not sure where Nate should really go.

If given the persona Neph's suggested (Pixie/Genjo/Aizen Myouou are reasonable floor 1/2/3, I'd put Shaka at 4 but that's me), he's... a decent 2.5? He feels like he lacks oomph, quite frankly; he's kinda bad floor 1, gets MT healing and Holy damage of the high 3HKO level floor 2, and then gets nice ST buffs floor 3... but compared to, say, Raquel of the slow but massive pain, Angelo of good healing, Chris of the even tankier with a nasty lategame Rune...

Mmm. I can see the 3.0, but he feels 2.5-3.0 borderline to me. Any thoughts? Am I talking out of my ass here? >_>

EDIT: Also, Neph, one small mistake: Pixie is weak Earth, strong Wind.

[dude789]

I was thinking that Felix from Radiata stories would make a good 3.0. OHKO damage even if the opponent halves ice, but he's frail, average at best speed, and he has nothing besides ST damage.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I like the idea of Felix in the Dungeon. But as much as I enjoyed RS, I don't think it has enough playership to support itself in the Dungeon. Still, Felix is kind of a neat niche.

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

Adray

F1- Firebolt, Lightning Blast, Ice Needles, Earth Glaive, Antidode, Standby Healing, First Aid, Healing, Silence

F3- Acid Rain, Chaos Tide, Efreet, Protection, Power Up, Thunder Flare, Increase HP damage, Critical Hit HP, Critical Hit,

F4- Cure Condition, Deep Freeze, Titan Fist, Resurection, Increase MP damage, Dark Sphere, Berserk

F5- Faerie Light, Reflection, Southern Cross, Stone Rain, Explosion

F6- Gravitation, Sea Gate

F7- Laser Beams!, Lightning Strike, Angel Feather, Siroco

F8- Emotion Torrent

Adray can set the following spells as battle skills - Firebolt, Ice Needles, Lightning Blast, Earth Glaive, Southern Cross

Also it occured to me that some people might view Standby Healing as handy for topping up HP as characters are standing waiting in between turns so I'm adding it to Maria and Pep's lists as well.

[dude789]

I like the idea of Felix in the Dungeon. But as much as I enjoyed RS, I don't think it has enough playership to support itself in the Dungeon. Still, Felix is kind of a neat niche.

-Djinn

I don't think that would be a huge problem because he's such a simple character. Early on in the dungeon Shania from SH3 got booted because not many people had played the game, but also because she had a pretty complex skillset that was gained at different times. Felix is not only simple, but he never really changes. I would feel perfectly comfrotable voting on him in the dungeon even if I hadn't played the game. 

[Clear Tranquil]

For the CKs!

Sharanda w/th items

F1-
Burnout, Spark Net, Spear Frost, Meteor Fall, Dancing Ray, Pellet,

F2
Down Burst (one time only), Moonlight, Star Children, Spinning Gale, Thunderbolt,
, Gravity Grabber (one time only)

F3
Gates of Heaven, Dark Mist, Fatal Blizzard,

F4
Trans Light, Black Rain, DL 4 (80 MP)

F5 -
Rave Twister, Night Raid (one time only), White Silver Dragon

F6-
Frozen Jet (one time only)

F7-
Spectral Flash (one time only), new Gravity Grabber, Flash Hall (one time only)
New Night Raid
Pysche Bomb X (one time per fight only)
New Spectral Flash, new Flash Hall, new Frozen Jet, new Down Burst, new Flash Hall

*Sharanda has an item limit of 32 items

Edit - .... annndddd edited based on advice from super/NEB

Discuss, etc

[Nephrite]

Okay. This is by no means the final list, but this is the list of what I'm going to change.


Removing

Gau
Tengaar
Rei
Philia
Malak


Moving

Yuri1 to 3.5
Terra 3.0
Garnet to 2.0
Alena to 2.0
Eiko to 1.5
Chris gets a Water Rune!

Blue 4.0

Maxim with spells 3.5
FF5 Chemist 3.5

FF5 Blue Mage 3.0
Relm with Espers / Summons 3.0
Rufus 3.0

Lucian 2.5

Jude 2.0
Alicia 2.0
Gilder 2.0
Sharanda 2.0
AF Sacred Slayer 2.0
Maria 2.0

Peppita 1.5
Tia with spells 1.5

Adray 1.0
Larsa 1.0
Shiho 1.0

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dungeon_Stuff - Guidelines for the above.

[dude789]

I just realized that there probably needs to be some turn restrictions for turn shift abilities or miming. The biggest one seems to be using turn shift on someone like Jane. If a team with both Jane and a sacred slayer is able to reach floor 4 they have probably won the dungeon because something like this will happen.

Jane goes first and uses Follow Me.
The rest of the team takes there turn.
Sacred Slayer uses turn shift on Jane.
Jane uses Follow Me and the team gets another turn.

[Nephrite]

I've spoken to a lot of people about that. There are a surprising number of people who don't see Jane as "granting" another turn, but I can see how that'd be a concern nonetheless.