Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Unoriginal]

Odd thought, but...

Nanami (Suiko 2)
Comes with a Spark Rune, automatically picks up a Gale Rune once her second slot opens up.

Pro: Passively raises the party's speed to fairly absurd levels just by existing, can combo with Riou.

Cons: Attack power isn't great on her own, very one-dimensional, little-to-no twinking options for the aftergame, should she get there.

[superaielman]

Is basically Jane that starts earlier on.

[Unoriginal]

Pretty much.  Just figured I'd toss it out anyways.

[Taishyr]

Any ideas when some of these ideas will be added as options, or are you waiting for more input?

Sealstone-wise... I can see two variants; the "your team/enemy team affecting" sealstones, and then maybe sealstones that can be equipped to someone before a floor starts, for an extra boost that's ST. Best way I can think of balancing this is to make them use already-existing buffs (and maybe make the effect dispellable for the battle)?

So having BoF2's Def-Up X as one kind, and then putting a SH Rage sealstone on someone else as another kind. I dunno.

(Also, I think I suggested this before, but a SH2/3 character with Crest spells would be a cool addition. Blanca, Lucia, Ricardo, Mao... there's options for this one, if it works out.)

[Nephrite]

Sealstones will probably wait until the remaining teams get in and I have a chance to make sure nothing is completely broken by them.

The new additions will get in once I determine if they'd be picked and have at least a 50% votership or so.

[Taishyr]

Fair.

Also, one option did occur to me... call the Sealstones that are ST Materia. >_>

An example would be FF7's Cover Materia, perhaps as a 1.0 or 1.5?

[Taishyr]

Okay so. I got bored.

Materia: Each materia must be equipped to someone at the beginning of the Dungeon. If the materia allows varying functions (Compact, All), the function can change each floor if desired. (So BoF2 Rand could have MT Cure2 one floor and MT Renew or MT Wake the next, but Rand cannot get the Cover Materia if Jude is the one who has it equipped.)


Cover Materia: Target gets Cover command (cover 1 target from physical attacks). 1.0 points
Etherial Materia: Target cannot be affected by the enemy by any means; any effects that would direct attacks to the bearer fail automatically. If all allies but the one with the Etherial Materia die, the team falls. 3.0 points
Compact Materia: Ally can equip 1 additional piece of armor (non-shield) or 1 additional accessory. The equip must be DL-legal. 2.0 points.
All Materia: One non-basic physical, command, or spell gains 1 use of MT per floor. 1.5 points.
Lag Materia: Equipped person goes only after all other people have acted. 0.5 points.
Counter Materia: Equipped person counters physicals with a basic physical. 1.5 points.
Synchronize Materia: Status attacks that target the Materia bearer (by an enemy), if they hit, also attempt to inflict the status on the opponent (same check). 1.5 points
Thunder+Element Materia: Makes basic physical lightning-elemental. 0.5 points.
Quake+Element Materia: Makes basic physical earth-elemental. 0.5 points.
Ice+Element Materia: Makes basic physical ice-elemental. 0.5 points.
Fire+Element Materia: Makes basic physical fire-elemental. 0.5 points.
Doublemove Materia: One non-basic physical, command, or spell may be doubleacted, with costs paid both times if applicable. 3.0 points.
Elemental Barrier Materia: Equipper can set an Elemental Barrier to Fire, Ice, or Lightning on their turn. They become immune to that element and weak to the other two elements, overriding any other weaknesses/resists/immunities to these elements. 2.5 points.
Jump Materia: Equipper's basic physical changes to Jump; he jumps for half his usual charge time (immune to damage), before landing and doing 2x damage to the target (forced ST). 1.0 points.

[ThePiggyman]

Cover + Ethereal (I think that's what you meant) = Insta-win. Atleast, from what I understood.

[Taishyr]

I wouldn't allow that combo to work since the wearer of the Ethereal thing would just not be a legal target for enemy attacks, but good point, I phrased it poorly. Revised.

Also, it'd only work for physicals even if you did let the combo work, due to how Cover works.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The Materia ideas sound really cool Tai. There -might- be a few broken combinations somewhere in there, but considering the difficulty of later floors of the dungeon, it might even out.

It'd be really cool to see these (and the field effect Sealstones) become Dungeon staples.

-Djinn

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Synchronize Materia: Status attacks that target the Materia bearer (by an enemy), if they hit, also attempt to inflict the status on the opponent (same check). 1.5 points

I'm thinking that in Pokemon, where I think you're getting this one from, Synchronize auto-sets the status on the caster upon successful casting on the bearer (no resist tests); immunity on the part of the caster being the only countermeasure to this effect.

If source is not Pokemon, please indicate.

Am wondering how Compact Materia would allow an extra suit of Armor or Helmet.  An extra accessory slot does seem plausible, though 2.0 would seem slightly steep for an extra accessory alone.

Am also wondering about the applications of Lag Materia period.

[Taishyr]

It is from Pokemon, but adapted some to fit the Dungeon. The other variant would work as well, I guess.

Compact - I dunno, make something up. Helmet that fits on your pinky or something.

Lag Materia - To ensure your healer goes last so he can cover the damage dealt by the enemy. In theory.

[DjinnAndTonic]

For the BoF4 characters, can they use combo spells if they follow up the correct elemental magic?

Would this work only between BoF4 characters or could it extend to other mages due to how the BoF4 system is reliant only on the specific element?

BoF4 Combo magic FAQ http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/918405/11363

[Taishyr]

I'd say yes to the first and no to the second, but that's my innate impulse. So Cray/Nina4 could combo. But then you'd be using Cray magic damage.

(Granted, Ryu4 and Ursula are also in the dungeon.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Perhaps its not mentioned in the FAQ, but physical skills are boosted by following an elemental spell (they take the elemental of the preceeding spell and [I think] hit twice), this would make Cray very useful as an elemental damage-dealer if paired with Nina, Ursula, or even Ryu4 (not that a Ryu4 team needs help dealing damage...)

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

*nod nod* Sounds good Djinn.

Also props to Tai for coming up with a Materia list.

**

Meru (LoD0.5 -

Pros- Fast! Healing! Fast healer! Can even double turn with healing depending on enemy speed. Literally a speed demon. Unlike Sharanda can use additions. Still starts off physically weak though but becomes a quite decent physical fighter with Perky Step later on. Magic damage is phenominal, Blue Sea Dragon is glorious nukage being a 1-2HKO and Freezing Ring/Diamond Dust are also relatively powerful. When used in a team with Rose and Sharanda either Rose, Sharanda or Meru can set up D Special providing all three have enough SP. Picks up Rainbow Breath just in time for floor 4 fun? High magic defense with that M ATK.

Cons- Starts off very, very slowly. Dear god is she weak. Doesn't pick up her dragon spirit till floor 3/4 at the least. Lacks any form of real offense till then. Really bad HP and low P-Dur too. Her not picking up her dragon spirit till later means Shana/Rose can't go D Special till later too.

[Nephrite]

Here are a few new things to talk about:


Chaz, Phantasy Star 4 3.0

Pros: Fast, versatile character with Healing, revival and damage. Some neat equipment and can also wear two shields.
Cons: Resources are not limitless. To do his major damage he has to use a sword, which reduces his defense a lot.


Kyra, Phantasy Star 4 2.0

Pros: Hefty healing skills, lots of MT damage and some neat stat buffs and debuffs.
Cons: Damage is not in fact that good. Warla and other abilities are gained a bit later.



Aigis, Persona 3 2.5

Pros: Tanky healer with some great buffs. Good damage to boot. Orgia mode is fun.
Cons: Is still not fond of that lightning weakness. Buffs aren't gained until later and revival is late period.


Mitsuru, Persona 3 2.5

Pros: Great magic tank with solid damage, healing and some status mixed in.
Cons: Fire? Yeah. Mind Charge isn't gained until later and her starting draw of spells is very one-dimensional.


Yukari, Persona 3 1.0

Pros: Healing! More healing! Magic tank! Yukari definitely has some great tools for her job and has a lot of resources.
Cons: The damage is not very good and her healing is ST for a good time.



Luneth, Final Fantasy 3 DS  3.0 (Job change every floor to your customization)

Pros: Great selection of options for whatever your team is lacking. Fills in some niches if you need him to.
Cons: Fully Equipped Onion Knight is Floor 8 and even then isn't that great. Having only one class per floor is a bit limiting at times.

[Dhyerwolf]

The P3 weaknesses are so massive that 2.5 feels pretty overblown (Especially since...doesn't Aigis kind of get that healing late too?). Anyone with Fire/Lightning damage is going to shut down Mitsuru and Aigis' turns. Aigis is probably better since Orgia Mode doesn't need a turn before she starts pumping out more (MT?) pain, but Mitsuru needs two turns/is average speed/mehish durability anyways/P3 is kind of bad on status blockers. Kind of hard to see them worth more than Kyra, who at least doesn't explode at common elements really.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The P3 weaknesses are so massive that 2.5 feels pretty overblown (Especially since...doesn't Aigis kind of get that healing late too?). Anyone with Fire/Lightning damage is going to shut down Mitsuru and Aigis' turns. Aigis is probably better since Orgia Mode doesn't need a turn before she starts pumping out more (MT?) pain, but Mitsuru needs two turns/is average speed/mehish durability anyways/P3 is kind of bad on status blockers. Kind of hard to see them worth more than Kyra, who at least doesn't explode at common elements really.

Dhyer: the elemental weakness in the dungeon isn't as big of a deal. They lose their turn, sure, but they aren't in a duel environment anymore: they can be healed of knock down status, healed themselves, and then, MT damage won't cause enemies to get a One More if it hits weakness on them - not to mention that knock-locking now isn't practical for most enemies anymore. Damage-wise, 1.25x is somewhat problematic when stacked into two attacks, but, with multiple team members, this just isn't the auto-win that it is in the DL (much like it happens in-game, being hit by a weakness is annoying, but not an auto-lose). Then, Mitsuru has a very rare combo: solid MT offense (2HKO-level MT offense! This is -valuable- in a dungeon environment) and healing off resources that don't suck - all this early and off sub-3.0 costs. That's big.

Kyra... well, she has notably lower offense and her main niche is healing (instead of Mitsuru, whose main niche is offense). And she's entirely ST for healing and has no revival, which is not great for someone whose main point is healing, since her MT offense doesn't reach 3HKO territory until endgame or so? Mind, you're still free to argue the rankings, and both are hard to peg due to being rather borderline territory. I still think that getting someone with strongish MT offense+plentiful healing off a 2.0 is a steal at a glance, but your mileage may vary and it may be worth to see how the weakness works out in the dungeon.

[Dhyerwolf]

Elements don't seem to be a big deal because they don't come up too much normally. On the other hand, Lightning comes up like 3 times on the first floor alone. And there are some endgame floors where it might feel like that PC is just such dead weight (For example, that endgame floor 6 boss run? Murderous). I could be wrong, but seems like on average those weakness might come up once a floor, which is not an unnotable amount.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It obviously depends on the floor. I see your point, and a few situations just plopped into my head for cases where it could be really obnoxious (for an example: YUNA. Fire staff = Mitsuru gets very annoyingly bopped forever and lets Yuna both disable a PC and cast stuff to raise hell at the same turn. On the other hand, Mitsuru against Yuna would be dead weight even without that, but you can see how it goes). In the dungeon, spoilability is a lot harder to gauge, which makes jotting down those ideas harder. And, for Aigis, hmmmm. I guess you do have a point there. Maybe she could lose a half point, although it's still hard to jot down.

[Dhyerwolf]

Lilka is also a similar type that popped into mind where they might not be dead weight. Also, Justin, oddly enough! Probably good that I think his fight got cycled out, because his ST Elemental Attack+MT Combo would be unpretty for the P3 characters. It really does depend on what they face though, so it could be possibly that between the normal two choices there might be enough leeway to make the P3 characters face their weaknesses rarely enough for it to matter (Good thing Yukari/Aigis are mostly deadweight floor 1 anyways, I think!). Although, just looking over the last 5 weeks or so...
Floor 2: L'Arachel, Magus, Halley, Keith, A few VP fighters who can hit elemental weaknesses (Just not 100% sure what they are off the top of my head!)
Floor 3: Flik, Deis, Yuna, Rydia, Lilka, Emma
Floor 4: Nash, Mia, Evil Gaia (Laugh all you want, but if Evil Gaia now has the effect of being able to neutralize a PC, that's a large improvement over normal!), A whole slew on reverse (Unsure how that works there...but Billy, Fei, Ziggy, and maybe Hahn?)
Floor 5: Ewan, Johnny, Guido (Lightning Only), Lich Warren
Floor 6: Ghaleon, Fou Lu, Myria 3, Arguably Zophar with his hands

Granted, some of these people have cycled out, and in some battles the weaknesses might not matter, but they can face them a lot. P3 fighters with the less exploited weaknesses really might fare better.

[dude789]

I'd think that they would work if the enemy didn't get an extra turn if they hit a weakness. Because if that was the case most enemies would have to decide whether they wanted to knock Mitsuru, Aigis, or Yukari down or do something that might be more dangerous for the rest of the team. Additionally, there are ways to work around their weaknesses (Yuna's null spells come to mind) which is what the dungeon is all about, and I think Nephrite would give them an elemental nulling accessory for the aftergame.

[Nephrite]

Lilka is also a similar type that popped into mind where they might not be dead weight. Also, Justin, oddly enough! Probably good that I think his fight got cycled out, because his ST Elemental Attack+MT Combo would be unpretty for the P3 characters. It really does depend on what they face though, so it could be possibly that between the normal two choices there might be enough leeway to make the P3 characters face their weaknesses rarely enough for it to matter (Good thing Yukari/Aigis are mostly deadweight floor 1 anyways, I think!). Although, just looking over the last 5 weeks or so...
Floor 2: L'Arachel, Magus, Halley, Keith, A few VP fighters who can hit elemental weaknesses (Just not 100% sure what they are off the top of my head!)
Floor 3: Flik, Deis, Yuna, Rydia, Lilka, Emma
Floor 4: Nash, Mia, Evil Gaia (Laugh all you want, but if Evil Gaia now has the effect of being able to neutralize a PC, that's a large improvement over normal!), A whole slew on reverse (Unsure how that works there...but Billy, Fei, Ziggy, and maybe Hahn?)
Floor 5: Ewan, Johnny, Guido (Lightning Only), Lich Warren
Floor 6: Ghaleon, Fou Lu, Myria 3, Arguably Zophar with his hands

Granted, some of these people have cycled out, and in some battles the weaknesses might not matter, but they can face them a lot. P3 fighters with the less exploited weaknesses really might fare better.

I'm not sure which weakness is "less exploited," though. Almost all of those people can, in theory, hit multiple elements. I would also state that if you have any PC with a Reflect spell that the Persona characters are virtually unharmed by any of their weaknesses. You also have to evaluate the person with the rest of the team in mind where they can pretty easily compensate, I would hope?

If you have any other suggestions about who might be better though, I'd be happy to consider them. Those three just seemed like the most logical options, although I could drop Mitsuru and Aigis by half a point to at least test the water in regards to them.

[Dhyerwolf]

The less exploited weaknesses would be Holy, Dark, and maybe Wind.