Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Excal]

Make it so that you give each skill a point value, and the skill you get is chosen from a list of those equal to or less expensive than the character you sacrificed?

In which case, Wyl is just a decent swordswinger with a nice sword on Floor 7 and a one shot ability that arguably refreshes with each fight (depending on how you see the multibattles with no save (or even setup) between them.

[Nephrite]

For the most part, I'd probably see Vali's being usable on every fight.

I could start Wyl at a 2.0 or something and then add points to him for each Plume skill he'd get? I don't know. He seems like an interesting idea, I just don't know how he'd really work out.

[Talaysen]

Non-Vali's Plume skills are DL-illegal to me and I would feel very iffy about voting on them even in the dungeon. Maybe if you permanently sacrificed a PC for one.

If the PC is explicitly described as having them, I see no problems.  Ramza doesn't get any classes in the DL, but he gets them in the dungeon just because that's how he's done in the dungeon.  Wyl's not really different in this case, assuming Valk's skills are explicitly included with the PC somehow.

dude: If you want them to be once per floor as a restriction, that needs to be in the PC description and not in the "Cons" part.  I think it is a fair restriction though.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I don't see why Wyl wouldn't be able to at least hold claim to all the C-path Plume skills? That's going to be his best DL-setup for a single playthrough. And I thought duelists were generally seen as taking their best form?

I mean, sure, the A-path ending is probably the best, but how Wyl would logically end up (stats/skills-wise) at each path's endgame seems like a legal way to interpret him. And at the end of C-path, he could easily be guaranteed Lockswell, Cheripha, Rosea, Duwain, Reinhilde, and Auguste's Plume Skills thanks to Chapter 5 cheese (and still have 2-3 extra party members depending on which splitpath he took in chapter 2).

Also... the Plume skills don't really seem that overpowered to me for the most part. He's not the first character to have high-accuracy MT status or decent buffs (and they don't even last very long) ... They're much more powerful in-game than they would be in a duel.

[Talaysen]

I don't see why Wyl wouldn't be able to at least hold claim to all the C-path Plume skills? That's going to be his best DL-setup for a single playthrough. And I thought duelists were generally seen as taking their best form?

I mean, sure, the A-path ending is probably the best, but how Wyl would logically end up (stats/skills-wise) at each path's endgame seems like a legal way to interpret him. And at the end of C-path, he could easily be guaranteed Lockswell, Cheripha, Rosea, Duwain, Reinhilde, and Auguste's Plume Skills thanks to Chapter 5 cheese (and still have 2-3 extra party members depending on which splitpath he took in chapter 2).

Also... the Plume skills don't really seem that overpowered to me for the most part. He's not the first character to have high-accuracy MT status or decent buffs (and they don't even last very long) ... They're much more powerful in-game than they would be in a duel.

The argument is that you have to sacrifice another PC to get them.  It has nothing to do with the pathsplit.

And the plume skills are really good in the dungeon due to being MT.  There's also a lot of variety, including invincibility, physical/magic blocking, and some other stuff?  I haven't looked at the list lately so I forget what all he had.

Addendum to NEB: Even in-game if you sacrifice people, you generally still have the full four PCs that you can take into battle.  So I don't really buy the argument of forcing him to sacrifice a dungeon PC to get them, since it doesn't really work like that in-game (you sacrifice someone you aren't using or replace the person you sacrificed with someone else, still getting a full party).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Plume skills are like Karn's fusions. You give up one character to power up another (the only difference is that with Wyl, it's permanent). These are not legal. Not to mention the splitpath issues; all except the ones he gets from Cheripha and Lockswell are only available on 1/3 of playthroughs. This doesn't strike me as even arguably legal for the DL. (Tal makes a good point on the dungeon, I just think it's a bad idea.) Saying he's guaranteed them on one route is both false (you may decide to keep any of those characters) and clouding the issue (because there are two other routes).

[dude789]

If all of the skills is too much of an interp issue than Wyl would probably be a fine 3.0 with Vali's that refreshes on each fight. He's just an idea and it can be changed or even dropped if he doesn't work. However, if we are going to allow him with all of his skills than a once per fight restriction is necessary. Some of his abilities are just too good to be used over and over. The big ones are Fury of the Aesir (MT physical immunity for 3 turns), Kvasir's Mead(MT magical immunity for 3 turns), and Fafnir's Heart (MT 100% instant auto revive for 3 turns).

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You know, those restrictions exist in-game. All Plume skills are OPB.

[Nephrite]

I might change them to once per floor in his case. I'm not sure, I'd have to think about it.

[Talaysen]

I think he meant once per floor since that's what he originally had down, anyway.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Plume skills are like Karn's fusions. You give up one character to power up another (the only difference is that with Wyl, it's permanent). These are not legal. Not to mention the splitpath issues; all except the ones he gets from Cheripha and Lockswell are only available on 1/3 of playthroughs. This doesn't strike me as even arguably legal for the DL. (Tal makes a good point on the dungeon, I just think it's a bad idea.) Saying he's guaranteed them on one route is both false (you may decide to keep any of those characters) and clouding the issue (because there are two other routes).

I'm not familiar with Karn's fusions, but the fact that Wyl's case is permanent is kind of an important difference. The game rewards you heavily for permanently giving up a character on the C path. Just because a skill is optional and requires giving up something else, I don't see what makes it illegal. There are plenty of unique skills that are MUCH harder to get that are allowed for others (For the Children comes to mind). And the idea of allowing alternate builds isn't so farfetched either (DQ8 characters tend to get any combination of skill builds they can afford depending on the situation, no one seems to have any problems allowing Zelos his splitpath boss form...).

Just because someone -may- decide to keep any of the C-path characters and calling the skills illegal as a result strikes me the same as saying someone -may- decide not to do all the optional dungeons necessary to get Yuri's For the Children. The skills are unique, it's possible to get all of the C-path ones in a single playthrough, and it even reflects in-game (especially if someone is preparing for a subsequent NG+ playthrough). I don't see what the problem is. It's not like it even effects the other characters anyway. A player would have to sacrifice Einherjar in VP1 for cool stuff, too (admittedly non-unique stuff, so it's a moot point), but the individual ranked Einherjar were treated as if they were the chosen few to not get sent to Valhalla.

As for Wyl in the Dungeon, I wouldn't worry too much about forcing Plume Skills to be once per floor, since the AP cost needed to use them is pretty restrictive (he generally can't use more than one Plume Skill per battle anyway... and if you don't allow him to regain AP between fights, then he'll end up having to spend most of his turns defending just to restore AP).

[Yoshiken]

Neph, no dungeon Cielo?

[Nephrite]

Hmm... I suppose I can try it, it was suggested once a long time ago. Let me see if I can dig up the options for Cielo again.

[Nephrite]

Because I've been playing through DDS1 again and saw this thread, I had a completely random idea that I decided I might as well throw on there.  Mantra gain might be a bit out of place, but it's a hard estimate...

Cielo (DDS1) (3.0)
Resist Electricity, Weak Ailments
Stat spread as in-game, favoring Agility and Luck.

As for mantras, while one could give him the ones he starts with (making him particularly good early on), the other option would be for handling Mantras...

(Note: This is based on my own estimations and playthrough experience.  Some might have gone through a slower or faster progression, given that I ended the game at L51)

Floor 1: Bolt Spirit (Zio, Void Elec), Protection (Dia, Patra, Analyze)

Floor 2: Bolt Lord (Mazio, Elec Boost), Angel (Hama, Tarunda, Void Expel), available abilities at one time increase to six

Floor 3: Lightning (Zionga, Bolt Flare, Elec Repel), Fallen Hero (Media, Posumudi, Achedi), available abilities increase to eight

Floor 4: Bolt Emperor (Mazionga, Elec Drain), Fierce Spirit (Diarama, Paraladi, Me Patra), Thrones(Mahama, Sukunda, Expel Resist), Spirit (Pulinpa, Makajam, Dormina, Tarukaja)

Floor 5: Cherubim (Hamaon, Rakunda, Makatora), Karma (Marin Karin, Rakukaja, Sukukaja)

Floor 6: Bolt Master (Ziodyne, Elec Amp), Calm Spirit (Mediarama, Closedi, Cursedi)

----------------------------------------------

Floor 7a: Seraphim (Mahamaon, Makanda, Expel Repel) and Illusion (Makajamon, Calm Death, Makakaja)

or

Floor 7b: Bolt God (Maziodyne, Elec Resist)

----------------------------------------------

Floor 8a: Insane God (Xanadu, Dekaja, Dekunda) (requires taking 7a: Seraphim and Illusion)

 or

Floor 8b: Dark Leader (Last Word, Megidola, Mind Charge, Magic Repel) (Requires taking 7b: Bolt God)

-----------------------------------------------

Floor 9a: Vicious God (Vanity, Salvation, Mana Surge) (requires taking 8a: Insane God)

 or

Floor 9b: Dark Lord (Megidolaon, Null Element) (requires taking 8b: Dark Leader)


Pros: Eventually gets a skillset from hell.  DDS buffs are hard to beat when stacked, and he can do a variety of things in a given fight.  Only gets better later on.
Cons: WEAK TO STATUS EFFECTS.  I repeat, WEAK TO STATUS EFFECTS.  Average speed.  Not very notable outside of the skillset.  Press Turn and Expel interpretations may vary.


Feel free to smack me.

Here's what Nama suggested a few months ago. Any changes to this since then because of more knowledge of stat topics or anything like that?

[Yoshiken]

It might be worth only allowing demon-form (I doubt anyone would transform for anything other than shop-bought bullets with status, but that's also an interpretation nightmare).

Also, looking through DDS2 stuff now, something like the Speedy Ring would be a pretty fun Sealstone. Speedy Ring is "1st person does 2x dmg; dmg down gradually thereafter." Obviously the numbers would need some changing to work well, but it could be good for those teams that need to blitz to win, and would obviously fail against stall teams that would bring their offence down to a limit that'd probably destroy them.

[074]

It is viable to also give him up to his Floor 3 stuff, if the prevailing opinion is to have him start with what Mantras he already has learned, and then proceed from there.

This is, though, admittedly based on a second playthrough, for what it matters.

[Clear Tranquil]

On review on what's been happening in the dungeon lately and how people take levels and upon realising that I haven't really allowed for any extra training or battle arenas or if characters fight all and everything I propose that Nel, Maria and Peppita have Mirror Slice, Gravity Bullet and Faerie Friend F5 onwards. Also Peppita now gets Healing Dance F4? Plus there's Triple EXP bonus bars to factor in for that game as well >_>

[074]

Uh, no, CT.  For me, Nel's always learned Mirror Slice around F6 at the earliest.  Maria only learned Gravity Bullet in the final dungeon(Late F6 or F7), and I don't really remember using Peppita that much.  Triple EXP can go burn with Reflect Mail hype for all I care.

[Talaysen]

Well, I had an idea for Mana Khemia characters.  Talked to Neph and he just told me to post it here.

Pick two of the PCs, one in the front, one in the back, only takes up one PC slot.  Only the person in front will act, but the person in back can offense/defense support and switch in, just like in-game.

My original idea was to just have a pool of the PCs each with normal point values, and someone would choose whichever two they want to use and the cost would be the average of their costs or something.  Neph said it might be better to just have preset teams (suggested Vayne/Jess and Pamela/Flay).  Limits the variety but makes things more simple.

Anyway, good idea, bad idea?  Ways to improve it?  Should I just shut up now?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I like the idea myself. It'll just need more brainstorming on balance, since it's quite a powerful niche - you're picking two characters, essentially, for the price of one, with the awesome advantages of MK's support system that get applied to a degree. For characters, Jess is a no-brainer, while Flay... hmmm, I keep thinking Nikki would be a stronger fighter than him, but he has recognition and even better damage. I'd like to see Roxis, since his turn-shifting gimmick is neat, though.

[Magic Fanatic]

Well, if anything, these choices can be set to point values higher than 4, like the Vayne/Jess team costs a minimum of 5, maybe even in the 5.5 area.  That way, it becomes somewhat balanced with what characters can be used...  So that way, one has to sacrifice a lot more points for the two-characters-for-one-slot situation.

[Clear Tranquil]

I also support the Tally Chu idea~ Sounds like fun. Plus it's another excuse to replay MK to refresh myself on the characters and see which character would have what when >_>

Flay/Pamela is an awesme (quite possibly the best!) combo in game, it'd be interesting to see how it'd work in the dungeon.

Well Nama, that's your perogative and fair enough. It's just that people had Rena with Anti on F5 and that's L50. If you look at it as each floor of the dungeon being roughly ten levels or so (well more for post game but yeah) then I think that's fair enough. Snowfire also had Rena at L60 with Raise Dead on F5 and I thought that was a bit much but L50 didn't seem too extreme to me *shrugs*

Peppita learns Faerie Friend at L50 and Healing Dance at L40. In the dungeon all characters are levelling up at the same rate. Nel and Maria learn Mirror Slice and Gravity Bullet at L52 as far as I know/remember so ... here they should both be learning it at the same time. I now peg F5 as L50-L55 myself so yeah just throwing it out there for those that are more flexible with levels and stuff. Again L65-L70 doesn't seem too extreme for the final. I was L70+ for SO3's final my first time through the game (Albel/Nel/Sophia) and I still had a hard time/resets.  

Eh that's w/o Triple EXP hype. If I were *really* hyping it I'd point out that people who fight everyone and everything from the beginning of the game with their bonus bar from then would be even higher levelled >_> I mean I've seen posts from people who had their characters at L50 for Crosell at the end of disc one <_< Being conservative I've had Faerie Friend et al at Moonbase/Styx from levelling up Peppita (and even if you're not levelling up Peppita people tend to train there anyway because those are EXP ripe areas) I've also had games where I hardly fight at all and I still wind up having Faerie Friend by the final (unless I'm purposely doing a rotating low level character challenge or something) so yeah it makes sense to me to be in a liberal enough mind set in Neph's dungeon and take into account that characters will be fighting quite a fair bit, doing at least a bit of training. Quite balanced, nothing too extreme ^_^

*flees*

[Talaysen]

I like the idea myself. It'll just need more brainstorming on balance, since it's quite a powerful niche - you're picking two characters, essentially, for the price of one, with the awesome advantages of MK's support system that get applied to a degree. For characters, Jess is a no-brainer, while Flay... hmmm, I keep thinking Nikki would be a stronger fighter than him, but he has recognition and even better damage. I'd like to see Roxis, since his turn-shifting gimmick is neat, though.

Well, the price for them would be higher than they would be individually as lone fighters to balance it out.  So if you think Vayne alone is like a 3, then we just bump him up to 3.5 or 4 or something (or higher if needed) for the dungeon.

But yeah, definitely needs some thought to balance it out.  If people approve of the idea I can try and figure out what floors people get what skills and such and then we can figure out point values and the like from there.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Oh, yeah: Pamela could be hilariously abusable in this setup. Immortal Body already is a pain in the ass to deal with in a non-DL environment, and now she gets an environment far more like her in-game self, where she can use support actions -and- abuse the revival... only this is far more valuable in the dungeon. I'd honestly kneejerk against putting her in despite the interesting niches, because she could be amazingly broken in this vein.

[Bardiche]

Immortal Body's only at floor 6 or 7, though. >_>

It's really, really late-game.