Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Nitori]

Everything that could be "amazingly broken" is always shot down and the teams that try it will meet a counter floor anyway so might as well let her in~

[Talaysen]

Immortal Body's only at floor 6 or 7, though. >_>

It's really, really late-game.

Immortal Body is right when she joins.  Physical Immunity is what you're thinking of.

Snow: So they just kill Pamela last?  She's not all that damaging at full HP or anything, so they just wait until other people are dead and then nuke her.  Or smack her with MT.  I dunno, there are lots of ways the enemies can deal with it, and they all seem applicable to enemies I've seen in the dungeon.  Also she's kind of frail and doesn't even revive with that much health.  Any enemy team with competent MT just smacks her right back down.

I can see giving her a high point value for it alone, but it's not really something that's that broken.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

She -starts- with Immortal Body. Physical immunity is the late one.

EDIT: And yeah, it's not broken on its own, Tal, but it's also um... compounding with the advantages of MK support. And the fact that they -have- to kill Pamela last can cause problems on its own. And she's even a prime candidate for Firefly even through the nerfs, because she's a free revival and basically a freebie opening turn. Although yeah, it probably doesn't warrant not using her. The potential for well-planned abuse is quite amazing regardless.

[Bardiche]

My mistake, yeah.

[Yoshiken]

Firefly would mean the free revival would only work in the next fight, though, and that'd also render her physical immunity useless once she actually gets it. If anything, I think the restrictions on it would make her utterly worthless, especially for a high cost.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

The revival would restore some of her SP -and- would be absolutely free, though, and that would obviously make her more useful than she'd be on those first three floors where she's completely awful (she's really not worth more than 2.5 by herself due to the horrendous lag). It means that you can use her as a sitting duck - and given how she can just swap out for the other PC if she dies and will still get the revival benefit... you sorta see where this is going. It's a compound matter, not in a vaccuum.

[Talaysen]

Firefly: One member of your team becomes the target of all Single target attacks. This effect will override any elemental or status protection or resistance (Reflect, etc. also do not work). The target of this effect may not have damage to them reduced in any way; in addition, revival effects take effect on the character with this sealstone after the current fight is completed. This effect may not be used on Worker 8 or Jane.

Yeah, Firefly kind of blocks Immortal Body.

It means that you can use her as a sitting duck - and given how she can just swap out for the other PC if she dies and will still get the revival benefit... you sorta see where this is going. It's a compound matter, not in a vaccuum.

Immortal Body doesn't trigger while in Support.  Also, I don't think it should be allowed to switch while dead either.  In fact, I think only the actual support actions should be allowed and not the Switch command.

From what I can see, your arguments just make me go "yeah, Pamela is more of a 4 pointer" instead of "Pamela is completely broken do not put her in".  I think you're overexaggerating things here.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Probably. I'm just thinking "hey Pamela+Support person is 4.0" and there's a bevy of ideas that could make her amazingly abusable, but eh.

EDIT: If she couldn't be abused, then why even bother with her anyway. Raw power isn't her thing. >_>

[DjinnAndTonic]

It sounds like an awesome idea to me, Tai.

Why don't you just go ahead and suggest some teams here and I'm sure if there's problems with them, we'll be more than happy to help you bang out any kinks.

Also, Pamela without support is a pretty interesting dungeon niche on her own and I'd like to nominate her as a standard dungeon pick now.

[Taishyr]

what i dinn't suggest anything whatchu sayin

Anyways, yeah, I'd not mind seeing MK people in individually or in the "switchoff" setups. To me, the balance of, you know, having two people in one slot, is... well, you only have one out at once for any given purpose. You can't really just go "loooooool both spam their offense at once" since that's not how it works. So.

[Bardiche]

Immortal Body doesn't trigger while in Support.

Are you sure? Mk forces you to switch out Pamela if she dies in battle and gets a turn. Sounds like Immortal Body wouldn't work then, unless your entire support is dead.

[AndrewRogue]

Actually, I figured this out really late game. You CAN skip swapping out dead PCs.

[Bardiche]

This was a silly post. Please ignore the silly post! I am silly, after all.

[Talaysen]

Anyways, yeah, I'd not mind seeing MK people in individually or in the "switchoff" setups. To me, the balance of, you know, having two people in one slot, is... well, you only have one out at once for any given purpose. You can't really just go "loooooool both spam their offense at once" since that's not how it works. So.

Yeah, I can agree to that.  I'll try and look into figuring out some skill lists and such this weekend if I remember and see how things work.

And yeah, you don't have to swap people out when dead, unless EVERYONE in the front is dead.  Just hit left or right and there's a Cancel command or something.  I used this quite a bit.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Anyways, yeah, I'd not mind seeing MK people in individually or in the "switchoff" setups. To me, the balance of, you know, having two people in one slot, is... well, you only have one out at once for any given purpose. You can't really just go "loooooool both spam their offense at once" since that's not how it works. So.

Yeah, I can agree to that.  I'll try and look into figuring out some skill lists and such this weekend if I remember and see how things work.

I think the fundamental balancing factor to me would be picking the switcheroo people costing two slots. Of course, I'd balance costs relative to that extra price, but I think that this is necessary, given how one could argue these could cheat the PC limit (and it'd be relatively abusive).

[Talaysen]

I think the fundamental balancing factor to me would be picking the switcheroo people costing two slots. Of course, I'd balance costs relative to that extra price, but I think that this is necessary, given how one could argue these could cheat the PC limit (and it'd be relatively abusive).

Two slots but cost less points than they normally would, you mean?

Hmm, that's an option too.  What do other people think?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think the fundamental balancing factor to me would be picking the switcheroo people costing two slots. Of course, I'd balance costs relative to that extra price, but I think that this is necessary, given how one could argue these could cheat the PC limit (and it'd be relatively abusive).

Two slots but cost less points than they normally would, you mean?

Yes, exactly. I like the idea, but up to you people to pick it up or not. Honestly, feels elegant as a solution.

[Talaysen]

Hm, in that case, I think the normal Switch command should be allowed and even while dead.  Then they actually almost function like two PCs for durability, but not for damage or anything else.  Which would help balance the fact that they do actually use up two PC slots.

[dude789]

I was looking over the list of characters and I think a couple of characters should have their point values lowered.

Athos- Can't deal damage for the first floor, and he has extremely limited damge for floor 2. He has no MT and average speed too. He should probably be lowered to a 3 or given a damage tome on the first floor.

Yuna- Her damage is Mint level until floor 6 or 7. This wouldn't be much of a problem if she was one of the best healers as her speed and evasion makes up for it. Unfortunately all of her good healing is ST which is a pretty substantial weakness. 3.0 would probably be a better fit.

Ryu 2- The main problem I have with him is that Yuri 1 and Jessica are both able to skip a fight by using MT OHKO damage and they have other skills to make up for it, Ryu doesn't. 3.0 is a better fit and also makes all the Ryus cost the same.

Blue Mage- The skillset is good, but it's gained pretty slowly. My big problem is that Bartz gets his entire skillset along with the rest of the FF5 skillset for only one point more. Chemist isn't as big of a problem because Bartz doesn't have access to it for a few floors, and the chemist skillset has more than one usable ability to put in his skillslots. 2.5 is probably best, but I can see leaving him where he is because the skillset is so good.

Sarah- Her damage is decent, but her resources are hideous after the first floors if she goes for her good healing. Definately needs to be dropped to a .5

[074]

re:Dude

Athos has endgame FE stats at the start of the dungeon.  In his case, physical attacks do little, magic attacks barely scratch him.  To boot, Floor 1 isn't generally dangerous anyway.  And, I'd note.  Bolting damage off of endgame FE stats for floor 2 is still going to be very, very painful.  Then counter hype starts on Floor 3.

Yuna: Fast, evasive healer with loads of magic defense by the end.  She can null elements for the party (covering for P3/P4 characters especially) and has a generally decent support set.  Getting Holy just makes it that much nastier.

Ryu 2: Yuri 1's FTC isn't quite the stupid overkill that Ryu-2's G-Drgn is.  On top of that, you're neglecting to mention that the guy's got infinite healing (though hahahahaha to that ever being hyped), some healing earlygame, and a notable physical game--early, at least, though I've seen that aspect be taken advantage of to kill the living shit out of the final boss in record time.

Blue Mage: I'll give you that Bartz gets the whole thing faster.  Bartz does have the unholy position of being a project character, though, can only really take advantage of the abilities of a class if one of its skillsets are equipped, and thus requires constant thought about what to do for each class.  Blue Mage, at least you know what you're getting.  And the skillset IS from hell.

Sarah:Interp issues ahoy with Shining Force characters, and that aside, she's a healer with an arguable not-completely-fail physical later.  She's fine where she is, really.

[Taishyr]

Mmm. I'd agree with Sarah dropping, though it loses Moulder his niche. Blue Mage... eh, I'd agree with the drop there, as well.

Yuna is ST healing, yes, but she's good enough outside of it/with her support and speed that I can't really see a drop without a general overall rebalance. Ryu2's dragons earn him 3.5, I feel, yeah. And Athos' design makes him an interesting 3.5.

[Nephrite]

While we're on the subject, I've been thinking about what to do with Bartz. At present, he currently gains two jobs per floor depending on what you set as his Job and then subset, but this is a little inelegant. The problem with him is that there are so many more useful classes than Ramza has that two jobs really seemed the only fair way. I could reduce this to 1 job per floor but then he'd really only get six or seven options.

Does anyone have any input on perhaps a better solution to him? I also don't really like how Red Mage gets mastered, but maybe I can just say he has to stay with that for two floors...

[Taishyr]

Well, does he max both classes when in both, or does it take two floors to max both classes?

I suppose I'd actually suggest 1 class floors 1/2/3 (2 if you want to take two floors to max both), 2 the rest of the way? Iunno. World 2 is where easier class leveling comes into play, so.

[dude789]

Would there be any interest in the DW7 hero with job classes as a 4.0? I know that DW7 has voting issues, but DW skills and spells are pretty consistent and change very little from game to game. I think someone who had played DQ8 would have a pretty good idea of what the DW7 skills would do.

[Taishyr]

I... think it'd get a ton of disrespect due to leveling speed, offhand? (Takes a long while to max a class, only gets jobs floor 3 by my interp)... I mean, don't get me wrong; resident DW7 fanboy here, I'd love it. But, um. I suspect it wouldn't see much use/respect.

DW3, now, would be interesting, but I've no clue how you'd manage a DW3 character in the dungeon unless you just do Sage.