Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Yoshiken]

Oh yeah, as it came up in chat last night, I had an idea for a dungeon Souji. Basically, limit him to only one class of Persona, still make him a 4.0, and the whole thing should work out.
He'd probably have to have Izanagi regardless, but I can't see an obvious way for this to be abused. For example, Yoshitsune (arguably the best Persona available) is a Tower Persona, which has nothing early on, so he'd be stuck with just Izanagi for the first few floors.

If I could get someone who's used to working with the Wiki to upload the data, I can probably gather and organise all the information needed for it assuming it's approved... so, opinions?

[Talaysen]

WA2 (and WA1) postgame doesn't even get anywhere near L100 anyway, so VBL is still good then.  WA3 postgame does get up there easily, though.

Yoshiken, honestly, I suggest just learning how to use the wiki yourself since it's actually not all that hard.  I am willing to help you out in this regard, but not to upload everything myself (especially since organizing requires adding wiki syntax, etc. anyway).

As for the idea itself, uh... honestly I don't like taking a PC and RESTRICTING them for the dungeon like that.  Aeonless Yuna excepted because it's a simple restriction and is still closer to in-game Yuna than one-arcana Souji.

Honestly, an idea is to make Souji a normal PC with full persona choice... but make the team auto-lose if Souji dies.  On the one hand, this makes Souji not overpowered.  On the other hand, this may be too much of a drawback.  Another option is to just interpret it as "if Souji dies, he can never be revived for the rest of the floor", but that seems somewhat arbitrary and on second thought I kinda don't like it.  But just tossing ideas at this point.

EDIT: Simple "no inheritance" clause might work, actually?  Seems like he's just a solid 4.0 with that, since the frue broken doesn't show up until later on and I assume opponents would have enough variety across a whole team to deal with it.  Harder to deal with in a duel, sure, but having multiple people with multiple options makes it easier to get around immunities and the like, and no inheritance makes sure there are notable holes.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Honestly, Souji with full inheritance is workable a 4.0. He's still not an auto-win due to not having a skill like Armageddon, Hassou Tobi is very endgame, he has a few holes even with full inheritance and his floor 1-2 performance is actually sorta poor. His possible elemental weaknesses will still matter for at least four floors as well. The main problem I'd see with Souji in the dungeon is that he'd be a complete research nightmare, because he just has too many personas, too many combinations and the Dungeon is already research-heavy as it stands.

[Talaysen]

Actually, you can null every element on one persona at endgame.  Granted, non-elemental still goes through, but yeah, that's pretty uber.

But yeah, he does have those problems early on.  He's still quite good even then, but not broked.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Actually, you can null every element on one persona at endgame.  Granted, non-elemental still goes through, but yeah, that's pretty uber.

There are still statuses he can't cover and elements that he doesn't have, so it's not entirely unwallable. And we all know how evil Neph gets on late dungeon floors anyhow. It's pretty uber, but I don't think Souji would've trivialized Neph's first floor 10, for an instance.

[Yoshiken]

I'd still say full inheritance makes him better than 4.0...
Although, no inheritance could work pretty well. Alternatively, one Persona per floor only, with inheritance from the one before that. That way, research'd only consist of having to look up one Persona per floor. Plus, the player would be able to make a choice between having the right skillset for that floor in particular or setting him up to be godly on a higher floor.
Full customisation and eventual skillset/immunities from hell still makes him a 4.0. Sure, some status would hit him, but that's about the only possible way to take him down when he's set up, and still not all of it would work.

Just a point.. on the skill inheritance from previous Persona suggested at the start of the post, he'd only inherit two skills each floor, and would only be allowed Persona up to, say, 5 levels lower than the floor (so that having the whole skillset works for that level.)
I think.. it wouldn't take so much research as it would preparation. And I'm pretty content with taking care of that.


Edit: Just another random thought, we should probably have some FE9/10 character in here. I'd personally be inclined to suggest Nephenee for interesting traits, although we could always allow changing of skills as well. Thoughts?

[DjinnAndTonic]

On FE9/10:
I don't think it would hurt to add more FE to the Dungeon, but there's already quite a lot of them available and they aren't particularly different from one another.

That being said, adding in a Laguz character would at least be adding in something that wasn't already available. Or a Bard character, but that idea didn't seem to fly when I first suggested it. Too bad, Nils for 3.0 hype.

But Lethe would work as an interesting possibility. She'd be another 'strong earlygame, useless endgame' type like Marcus, though. Laguz transformed stats are pretty good at first, and Lethe starts battles transformed, so she'd get a few rounds of damage in before her transformation guage is up. And then she can conceivably join in again after a few turns. It'd be an interesting niche pick, though it might be wonky on a VBL team... 1.0? She has that nasty fire weakness after all.

Also, would support Nephenee or Mia for their skills. Don't recommend any FE10-only characters at this point as I think it's still somewhat less played than FE9.


Re: VBL teams

I designed my team about VBL, though I'm considering some revision due to the new Floor 1 requiring more Magic Offense than I wanted.

Cloud (w/ materia)
Raquel
Yulie
Aika
Violent Burst Law

This would give Aika access to her damage-nulling abilities far earlier than before (and since she's the only SoA character using the full bar and that move is pretty light on resources, she shouldn't have too much trouble except for looong stall fights). It also gives Cloud immediate access to an 'I win' OPB move. Similarly, Raquel gets some 'I win' capability, plus Yulie/Raquel's MP-restoring dualtech could be useful in a pinch for whatever magic Cloud/Yulie/Aika use up. Cloud would be focusing on protective/healing/reviving materia earlier on, and then going for MT status to cover most of the bases.

The biggest problem is not enough Magical Smash on floor 1 to handle that pesky new boss. I guess if I give Cloud Thunder materia, then he and Aika's decent Fire stuff can probably handle it... but that throws kinks into my plan of Cloud=Healer. I guess Cover isn't quite as necessary when I've got Aika damage-nulling, but it was my original first-floor plan.

</ramble>

Uhh... suggestions?

[Nephrite]

I think you're overestimating Rampage Drive, myself. Wouldn't Yulie have some form of magical offense at that point too?

[Magic Fanatic]

I think the biggest problem is that on the early floors, all Cloud would have is command Materia and his OPF power.  If you don't choose that command Materia as first, he's...  Gonna be a warm body, doing useless things, or has to spend the OPF power way earlier than necessary.  Raquel loses her "Charge up to 2x power and SMASH harder" strategy...  That's all I can really think of.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think you're overestimating Rampage Drive, myself. Wouldn't Yulie have some form of magical offense at that point too?

Yulie's only non-physical source of damage until Sacrifice is her Material force. That's sorta problematic.

[SnowFire]

Yeah, but Material rocks.  Granted, no FP boost for Floor 1, though...   still, one Material + Aika damage should be fine (Alpha Storm I'd certainly see as > Rampage Drive, since it's Fire damage).

Djinn: I'd say that the bigger problem is that Aika & VBL is a non-combo.  Aika's cool in the Dungeon because she spams Delta Shield every damn turn in fights against Mages.  Even assuming you let the max spirit be that of a normal 4 person party (which is fair enough, it's what the DL does as otherwise non-Aika characters would be unable to use their ultimates), that's still gonna run out really fast in the early floors of the Dungeon.  And don't forget that Aika's magic and damage all require SP, too.  VBL means that Aika can open some later fights with Lambda Burst / Omega Psyclone, sure, but they aren't THAT good, certainly nothing like The Claudia or other MT ultimates, and they still eat your SP meter fast.  Unless you can voluntarily exempt Aika from the VBL on some floors?  Dunno, talk with Nephrite.

I'd say go with XS1 Ziggy and Rena instead over Aika.  Rena's an undercosted healer who'll also help you beat Rampage Drive, and Ziggy gets to actually use that Boost Gauge thanks to VBL.  Flip side...  you'd have no speed at all, then, and fast MT magic would spell big problems since it'd get around Cloud's Cover.  Huh.  Never mind, not sure, then.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I see what you're saying about Aika and VBL being a non-combo, but I disagree.

Aika's biggest problem in the Dungeon is that she takes forever to have the SP to spam her good skills (Floor 4, really, even though she can -get- most of her good stuff by floor 2, excepting maybe her final). Starting off with the full 30+ SP is great for spamming the (what is it, 2? 3 SP?) Delta Shield which gives her 10/15 uses, which unless we run into a stalling strategy shouldn't be too harmful. It also means that around floor 4/5, she can open with some big damage if necessary. Also, after floor 3/4, she'll get Swirlmarang, which means even if she has 0 SP, she can still do -something- useful with 100% Confuse off of her physical. The biggest downside to VBL is that Aika loses the resources to be a good healer. But she still can, in a pinch.

As for Yulie's Material... I know some people don't even consider her able to use it in the DL, even if she takes a turn to move to a Elemental Hex (lucky WA4, you're never more than one move away from an Elemental Hex).

And... FP Boost is really extraneous with VBL... >.>;;

Re: Cloud + VBL
Crap... he can't use his physical without blowing his Limit, can he? For some reason, I thought I had asked about this before to Neph.

Yeah, it's a similar scenario to how WA4 FP drains after battle. The VBL sealstone allows a character to conserve Limit meters until you actually -want- to use them. That way WA4 characters aren't forced to blow all their FP in the first battle for fear of losing it anyway. I imagine it's the same for FF7 Limits.

[SnowFire]

Oh...  yeah.  Somehow I totally ignored VBL's effect on Yulie.  That said, uh.  Don't use Yulie and Raquel TOGETHER in a VBL team!  WA4 characters share their FP gauge, so uh, yeah, that's FP for either Materials OR Intrudes.  Ouch.  (They'd actually be awesome together without VBL, since Yulie can grab FP Boost on Floor 2 or so?  That's a free Intrude for Raquel every fight, which rules.  Toss in Speed? on Raquel for even more fun.)

Also, thinking about VBL...  it'd be pretty fun with Yuri2 / Kurando / Shania, too, thanks to the Stock Gauge.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Huh? SH2 had a Stock Guage worth using?

No, I see what you're saying about no Yulie + Raquel under VBL, but Yulie's just the right kind of healer for me, plus Yulie/Raquel MP-restore duotech is still an option. Material isn't generally going to be very helpful anyway due to requiring that extra turn to set it up. Plus, it only costs 25 FP anyway... >.>;; I get 4 to play around with if necessary.

[SnowFire]

Well, until you can get Cloud set up with Restore / All - which will only be one shot of All at first - your MT healing is Material and that's it (though thankfully it ignores Delta Shield).  Aika gets Sacrum on...  uh, Floor 3 maybe?  But that's *8 SP*.  Your SP max on Floor 3-5 is going to be around 25-50.  That goes faaaaaaaast, and means you're not using Delta Shield.  Okay, eventually there's Gather-> normal healing as well, but that's also crazy dangerous since everyone shares damage too (although perhaps Quicken / Protect as well, but then you're not casting Gather turn 1).

For working well with Delta Shield, there's also the possibility of trying to fit in Chemist or Larsa as your healer, though neither are much use against MT either.  Man, who else has MT non-magical healing?  Jessica's the only one I can think of, and that requires grabbing Hustle Dance over Magic Burst or Kazing.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Rikku and Shana are also non-magical healing-types, I believe. But Rikku's expensive. Admittedly, either of those would work well in a VBL team, though Shana doesn't get her Dragoon spirit for a while to take advantage of the turn 1 transformation->Holy Dragon magic smash thing. I've definitely been considering Shana for a while. I -could- trade out Yulie for Shana and... what? a 0.5? I need to check. Maybe I could squeeze Aeris in there for more Limit cheese? Great Gospel on command is kind of cool. And she actually has Restore Materia to keep her useful once she blows her OPF Limit.

Serious resource limitations all around, though.

[SnowFire]

Huh.  Well, Shania has the Stock gauge at least.  Yeah, suppose I was off on SH2, was mostly remembering that combo magic existed there too, just that it required moving your characters around I guess.

Also.  I think Chris and Knight could both be safely docked half a point in their cost?   (Alternately, hand Chris a normal Water Rune from the get-go.)  Knight's been used only rarely, and while Chris has been used a decent amount, I suspect that might be more out of style / popularity.  I certainly don't recall any Chris-teams going very far in the Dungeon.  Chris and Knight are pretty similar...  tanks with good damage, but tanks just don't translate too well to the Dungeon.  Chris does get the True Water Rune game going on...  Floor 5 or so?  But she also takes off her armor on Floor 4, which is unpleasant, plus she hoses her speed to use the Phoenix Rune.  Dangerous and a long time for that payoff.  Meanwhile, Fighter is entirely one-dimensional on floors 1-3, and Knight's magic tricks don't translate well to the Dungeon (RUSE is single-target).  And see above about being a super-tank not being too terribly helpful, as he isn't winning alone if everyone else dies.

Full disclosure: Vaguely considering making a team using them.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Chris -does- get a Water Rune from the get-go, BTW.

Agreed about Knight being able to drop a half-point. Though he's a decent option for even the new Firefly sealstone.

[Nephrite]

As was said, Chris does start with a Water Rune these days. AND AN AMAZING TWO CHARGES TO CAST SPELLS YES.

Knight... yeah, I'll probably drop him half a point next time I do some housecleaning.

[superaielman]

Idea I suggested to Neph: no revival sealstone- All revival (Besides for dungeon full heals) are disabled. All PC's cost -1 points to use. Thoughts?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

... holyfuck.

EDIT: Okay, now that I'm no longer punching a table, I can give an opinion that doesn't devolve to incoherent babble.

The good about the sealstone: it makes non-reviver healers a lot more viable and gives a new wealth of team combos, which also shifts dungeon balance around (I like ideas that change what is good design in the dungeon). I've always wanted to see a cost-twinking sealstone that works, and Snowfire had one that was a protoversion of this, but it lacked the punch/appeal that this one grabs. So, it's an interesting idea.

The bad: first, I'd add a clause that characters can't be gotten for free. Their cost bottoms at 0.5 (I am sorry, but that's just abusive). This is more principle than practice, but it's good to establish. Second, I'm wary of allowing dungeon fullheals to revive, although I can be argued. Finally, I can very much sense this sealstone is going to be amazingly insane the minute someone taps into it with the right mindset, and if we have a revival of the Firefly debacle, I'm going to hit asian schoolgirls in the coots with a bat.

The gist of it: I'm intrigued, interested and wary. Would like to see it brainstormed, at least.

[Taishyr]

Give me an hour or so, I'll look into breaking it.

[dude789]

Let's see with that sealstone you could make teams with
-3 4.0s, 2 2.0s
-2 3.5s, 3 3.0s
-4 3.5s, 1 2.0
-2 4.0s, 2 3.0s, 1 2.0
-1 4.0, 2 3.5s, 1 3.0, 1 2.0
-2 4.0s, 1 3.5, 1 2.5, 1 2.0
-1 4.0, 4 3.0s

It looks that the 3.5s and 3.0s would get the biggest boost as 3.0s are now extremely cheap and 3.5s can combine with another 3.5 to create buy two strong characters for only 5 points. It seems neat, but a team like Tir/Ryu 2/Timelord/ Jerin, and Nash would be difficult to stop.
  

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Hm. Additionally, the total points for a team could be reduced by 1 with this sealstone. 11 to 10. It's still a net gain, but reins a bit the insanity possible with the teams.

[Taishyr]

Yeah, immediate reaction after looking it over is that a -0.5 drop is... saner, though possibly skewed in the direction of underpowered. Look at it this way: with 5 people, -1 is 16 points for a team design. This is... brutal. -0.5 is 13.5 - a fair bit more balanced, in my estimate, but again... might be underpowered.

Here's a few teams I'm immediately pulling with the current design, presuming no negative points:

Deis2 (2.5), Geddoe (2.0), T.G. Cid (2.5), Kyogre (2.5), Eileen (1.5) - Replace Deis2 with Deis1 if you like her more. High speed massive damage rush from hell; the slowest is Cid until he gets Excalibur, then it's probably Geddoe which is sad. A boss with mass elemental walling and high HP to stop Cid is the best option, and even then the team is scary as hell.

Cecilia (3.0), Rika (3.0), Crowley (1.0), Geno (2.0), Fogel (2.0) - Two IDers (fast). Saner. Geno Boost. Crowley's magic. Hi-Prison. Fogel. Brutality, overall; not as good as the first team but still fierce as fire.


EDIT: Bartz (3.0), Wren (2.5), Eileen (1.5), Fogel (2.0), Hugo (2.0). The basic principle? Bartz uses Golem, Wren uses Barrier. Enemy offense suddenly, and literally, fails to exist.


EDIT 2: Okay. One other thing to mention? It might be easier to avoid the negative point issue if you just say "No revival works, but your max point cap when making the team is increased by x (3 or 4. 5's where it's at approximately right now).

This also has the advantage of letting you make a smaller, denser point value team and not lose the full effect of the sealstone, if you so desire.