Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic! (Read 142378 times)

Nephrite · « **Reply #450 on:** August 29, 2009, 05:21:53 AM »

Something else for people to chew on:

Mew, Pokemon Gen 3 (All TM access & can relearn moves forgotten)

Pros: Obviously versatile. Can do a variety of things for a team. Damage is pretty great.
Cons: Starts to wane a bit near the middle and end and still has move limitations.

The idea would be that you can change Mew's four moves at the beginning of any floor to whatever you'd like.

Thinking a 3.5 with that level of TM access?

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #451 on:** August 29, 2009, 05:26:01 AM »

3.0 is where I'd peg him at. Pokémon movepools aren't so hot in the Dungeon. He'd mostly have very versatile offense and a few random utility things, but being ST-heavy doesn't help so much.

hinode · « **Reply #452 on:** August 29, 2009, 05:53:29 AM »

I'd suggest allowing the FRLG set of move tutors as well, as that opens up a lot of useful options (Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Softboiled, Explosion...). I'm not sure that the gen 3 TM list would be enough to make Mew worth even a 3.0

Taishyr · « **Reply #453 on:** August 29, 2009, 03:03:35 PM »

Does he get all TM access from the start, or will that be staggered?

EDIT: Also, either way and while we're on the topic of Pokemon and moving stuff to 2.0, Alakazam would probably be saner there with the wait time he's got.

Nephrite · « **Reply #454 on:** August 29, 2009, 05:05:27 PM »

He gets them all from the start.

Alakazam starts as himself these days... I probably need to fix the wording on that and mention he starts with Confusion.

Taishyr · « **Reply #455 on:** August 29, 2009, 05:17:13 PM »

Does he? That makes him better, yeah. Torn on his position, gut says that he still has some issues competing with Mew but.

ThePiggyman · « **Reply #456 on:** August 30, 2009, 06:27:08 AM »

Quote from: Taitoro on August 29, 2009, 05:17:13 PM

Does he? That makes him better, yeah. Torn on his position, gut says that he still has some issues competing with Mew but.

Well, in his defense, Alakazam's still a faaaaast damage dealer, who can raise that damage in a pinch, too. Healing, too.
Although yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing him lowered by .5.

Either way, though, I was thinking of using 'zam on my next team, so don't think of retiring him. ;p

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #457 on:** August 31, 2009, 02:49:32 PM »

*CT is contemplating on whether or not to use Yuri2 (Arc Gale!) + Lucia (Gale) instead of Lenneth2 + Mia*

Big problem is no revival on floor one if I use Yuri2 instead of Lenneth but eh.

Lenneth, Maria, Sharanda, Peppita, Mia, Nall (Status Symbol Law)

How far do peeps see the team going as it is? Snow you're good at this?

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #458 on:** August 31, 2009, 05:21:45 PM »

Lucia AND Yuri2 together sound a poor idea. He gets the spells Lucia does and more, and you want more bang for your buck even if you're using a Light. Redundancy isn't good. Not to mention that Status Symbol Law would be bad for Yuri, he'd become below average speed (Lucia herself would become rather problematically frail and she's already below average speed, this would make her even easier to outspeed. She'd also lose resources, etc... just not something I'd do).

Also, that team really doesn't like the idea of Status Law. Outside Lenneth, all the party members have statistical problems. If you pick that sealstone, Meru will a) become easier to outspeed and b) OHKOed by average to below physicals. She'll turn into a 0.5 liability. Sharanda will have similar issues, with the added problem of risking not being even above average speed anymore. Speed-wise, Maria won't be affected, but you don't want her getting -frailer-, and Mia herself is already slow and frail until floor 5 (where she may become averagish speed and frail). That team won't make waves because of how poorly off its stats pan out and how Status Law both mitigates what good stats they have and exacerbates the ones that fail. Lenneth is a pretty good Status Law pick, but it doesn't matter when the rest of the team is riddled with some of the worst picks ever for it.

Yoshiken · « **Reply #459 on:** August 31, 2009, 05:48:05 PM »

I've been considering this team lately, want to see what people think of it...

Something along the lines of... Yuna/Kyogre/Yosuke/Teddie/Nall with Status Symbol Law. Yuna can cover revival in-battle while Teddie can cover healing from F1, and Yuna has NulShock to remove any weakness issues. Yosuke has decent physical damage while Kyogre has good magic damage, and Teddie can eventually use buffs to add to that.
The major problem I can see is that SSL is gonna knock those decent physicals of Yosuke's into around average, especially early on, and his durability will probably suffer greatly as well. Still, having physical and magical damage, healing and a decent buff... Any comments?

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #460 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:13:38 PM »

I'd honestly refrain from using Status Symbol on a party where stats matter so much. The main issue is that Teddie will turn into Raja with less resources and no MP healing (granted, far better offense!) with the Sealstone, and your team is already frail at base. Yuna will also suffer. Weaknesses also won't be nice when Yuna can't cover for them.

Yoshiken · « **Reply #461 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:22:10 PM »

Hmm... No Sealstone, maybe? Or Speed? on Teddie, just to give him that push above average? I mean, none of the team get speed buffs, so it's not like I'd lose anything by using Speed? on a below average character...
As for not being able to cover weaknesses, that should only really be a concern when there's a) Grass typing, which is incredibly rare, or b) multiple Lightning users, in which case I'd be relying on a quick sweep by the other members of the team to knock down one of them ASAP.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #462 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:25:29 PM »

No, what I mean is when Yuna needs to do something else instead of casting a Nul.

SnowFire · « **Reply #463 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:49:37 PM »

Edit: Wrong thread. Anyway, on topic, aside from Chris possibly being worth a discount, the same might be true for Carlie? I'm not SD3 expert, but she gets her really broken stuff quite late IIRC, as in Floor 6. That's probably worth a half a point discount (even if she's definitely worth 2.5 points by the end). Speaking of which, does going the Black Curse path still give her MT Heal Light? If it doesn't, then she might not even be worth 2.5 points late.

Nephrite · « **Reply #464 on:** August 31, 2009, 09:49:23 PM »

I believe Carlie gets MT Heal Light in every one of her second class changes.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #465 on:** August 31, 2009, 10:05:15 PM »

That belief is correct.

Bardiche · « **Reply #466 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:43:34 PM »

Do you think we can expand the Seiken Densetsu 3 cast members?

Lise/Reitz (2.0)
Pros: Perfect accuracy stat downs/ups. Decent damage.
Cons: Spells are all single-target until Floor 6.

Duran (2.0)
Pros: Powerful physical fighter. Can pick up healing power or elemental sabers.
Cons: Spells are all single-target until Floor 6. Not too hot on resources.

Kevin (1.5)
Pros: Brings damage to the table. Can potentially Heal.
Cons: ... despite which, doesn't bring much team-oriented skills.

Granted, Kevin probably isn't much -- he does get HP Drain Saber at Floor 6, but that's... really late. Probably a somewhat better version of FF1 Monk, with a little less damage?

I think Duran and Lise would be interesting. There... aren't many who have perfect accuracy stat downs, and Lise's can become Multi-target. Duran fits a role for those who want someone who can support and is durable to boot, but his always-average speed and suspect MP pools make me feel he's not a 2.5.

... Totally not inspired from the Carlie comment.

Taishyr · « **Reply #467 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:57:06 PM »

Honestly, I'd flip Kevin/Duran around for point value, and... mmm. I can see Lise at 2.0, but Kevin and Duran both want to be lower, IMO.

I'm trying to make a viable team that uses at least some of the SD3 cast - main issue is the slow start and average speed, but. (I'd actually plug Carlie into my next next team idea except she doesn't get MT healing till at least floor 3 - it's not bad but eh.)

Yoshiken · « **Reply #468 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:57:44 PM »

Just thought of someone who'd be pretty interesting for the dungeon...

Viki (S4) [0.5]

Pros: Perfect PC-killer! Can remove anyone from battle!
Cons: ...Including allies. Pretty bad all round outside the gimmick.

For Dungeon purposes, I'd see this as Eject rather than ID personally, in that it wouldn't kill allies, just remove them from that fight.
Of course, if there's another Viki that works better, that'd make more sense. I just picked the S4 one because that's the only Suikoden I've played.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #469 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:58:28 PM »

Duran was like a 1.5 in the Dungeon, I think he got clipped. Nobody picked him but Tide (And Duran really isn't a great addition. Is a mehish damage nobody until floor 3, where he gets middling, ST healing and whose damage gets -progressively worse- until floor 6, where his healing finally becomes MT and he gets STATUS HEALING~. The other class changes are pretty worthless relatively to boot. MT SABERS!?!?!?!111).

In the dungeon, Lise arguably wants the stat downs instead, gives her a use for bosses (ST stat buffs are just -worthless- when they're your main niche until floor 6). Don't think she'd be worth over 1.5 either.

Kevin is more damaging than Monk and reams the curve from the get-go, and I think he's more of a 2.0-2.5.

Which is to say I'd just say "no" to more SD3 PCs in the Dungeon. They're not simple to interpret (aaaaaaagh arpg speed interps fuck you) and don't... really bring all that much to the table.

EDIT: To Yoshiken: Viki's Eject skills are seen as useless in the DL outside S4's, which is actual ID. Your assessment on Viki taking her as S4 would still be accurate, though. >_> Porom-tastic durability and sub-Jeane speed on a pure ID whore that's entirely ST are a recipe for disaster.

Bardiche · « **Reply #470 on:** September 01, 2009, 12:04:44 AM »

I figured I was underselling Kevin a little. Not at all related to my personal dislike for him... but alright. I felt Lise would be the most interesting pick out of the three because of perfect accuracy stat downs that are pretty powerful (FAQs say 33% decrease, my experience says that is probably right), and become Multi-Target by Floor 6... which gives you a whole slew of options at that moment.

Well, Snow, I just wanted to suggest them for completion sake and because I thought Lise'd be cool.

---->

Yoshi, that's... I don't think you'll find a lot of people wanting to interpret Viki's random probability to eject the entire party or enemy party, or one enemy/ally. She'd be a lot more interesting if you allowed her Rune customisation, but even then Miakis has a wider draw of good Runes to choose from and doesn't suffer from charge times and spell proficiencies as much.

SuikoMages are limited by cast charges anyway, which spells resource problems for them in the Dungeon if the team doesn't blitz--wouldn't recommend Viki taking a party slot for really, really, really unreliable "ID".

Nephrite · « **Reply #471 on:** September 01, 2009, 12:13:40 AM »

Kevin and Lise I could probably see. I might just make a stipulation that SoM and SD3 (and SO2 and SO3?) characters are 100% average speed and lose tiebreaks when doing anything besides attacking. This might simplify matters for them somewhat but does kind of shoehorn voting a bit. In the end though I think it would help.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #472 on:** September 01, 2009, 12:21:46 AM »

SO 2 at least has a pretty good way to take speed without the shoehorning!

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #473 on:** September 01, 2009, 12:26:55 AM »

I honestly don't like the shoehorning solution either, since it singles out things like Carlie's healing or Angela's charge times - not to mention that why would this be dropped into SD3 but not every other single ARPG? It's a very unfair interp for all sides involved. I feel that it's not something to be Dungeonrule'd, and I -will- cross the speed interp bridges whenever necessary! Just don't think it's necessary to add more than there already is, is all. >_>

Nephrite · « **Reply #474 on:** September 01, 2009, 12:43:41 AM »

Ideally, if there was some elegant solution (4 second casting times = X% speed penalty) or whatever I'd be all for it. It may simply be a problem that has no real solution besides "Uhh, well my gut says..."

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Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic! (Read 142378 times)

Taishyr

Taishyr

Bardiche

Taishyr

Bardiche