Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

But her damage is pretty late, and extremely tough on her resources. Silence's accuracy wasn't as good in ToD as it was in TotW:RM. I thought it was <50%, even? Also, Revival comes about the same time as Tear's? I just don't see what made Rutee worth more than say... Lunar Jessica?

Half the issues you're addressing are false. Bloody Rose is 32 MP to a high 800~ MP pool endgame (and it's certainly not much lower when you do get it. ToD resource pools were utterly retarded). Silence in ToD is 100% or at least damn close to it, I tested the spell myself at multiple points in the game and never had it miss. You just never notice it in-game because ToD enemies, and actually checking if it -did- work is a pain in the ass (how many enemies get Silenced and live to charge a spell after being silenced? This is the only way to test if it works, and I had to do it sorta exhaustively to certify myself on the hit rate). Revival is indeed late, but that's an issue common to all Tales healers, really. Jessica's revival was pretty late too, for that matter. >_>

For Rutee being worth more than Lunar Jessica? Far more resources, better utility and can actually cover offensive variety in a pinch (she gets a rather notable amount of MT magic throughout various points in the game). Dhyer is about right on the advantages Jess has for getting certain things, but Rutee's MT healing is like floor 4 at the latest or something (do remember it kicking in early and keeping up with your HP until lategame, which doesn't hurt. But I think ToD healing is percentage-based), so it works out well enough. Not to mention she actually gets MT full healing at -some point- instead of never.

Come to think of it, Atwight really was the best Swordian bar none in ToDo.

[SnowFire]

Though while on that note, Lunar Jessica is wildly overpriced at 1.5, so even if Rutee is better she might still be able to use a discount!  The wiki seems to think that Jessica's damage is good...  well, sure, it's good in-game for clearing randoms without MP costs, but the Dungeon is more about doing better damage even if it costs MP, and Jessica utterly falls down in this regard compared to all the special moves the rest of her cast gets.  Plus her MT healing isn't full, and the revival is lateish as noted.  At 1.5 she's competing against Eiko, who while is a bit frailer and has a smaller MP reserve, has actual damage (and MT options too!), status options, cheaty elemental spoiling, MT full healing, can randomly revive the party after a wipe, maybe even the occasional Trance, etc.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Jessica is definitely overpriced as a 1.5. Although comparing to Eiko might be a bit unfair, she (and tangentially, so is Garnet, but she's a 2.0) is just about the best bang for your healer buck you can get for the price range. Jessica's midgame damage just has a moment where it relatively shines due to her getting two swings while both Nash and Mia fail it up really bad at offense due to Lunar magic being immense trash until endgame.

[Clear Tranquil]

I dunno Eiko kind of exploded for me. She was 2.0 then though. That's why I was hesitant to pick her over Sharanda this time. Thought she might have MP issues for Rampage Drive. I really had been overestimating Rampage though. Snow mentioned the likes of Sharanda might miss the 2HKO on it ... so it's a  3HKO to average mages? Thanks to Snow for making that more clear to me. That should really help folks in the future =-)

Even though I'm going to go w/th the Legend of Dragoon Synenergy Team plot (it should get past the first few floors at least w/th proper planning) and though Snow raised plenty of valid points I want to give my old team a test run myself now that I've had more time to think about it. There were some things I forgot in the excitement ^_~

Team Nel (Life), Maria, Sharanda (attack items), Peppita, Meru (starts w/th dragoon spirit + default spell), Nall vs F1
Team Layout - YMMV
Nel - Healing (nerfed by Life), Fire Bolt, Increase HP damage (physicals), Aerial (Faerie Friend like damage modifiers), Shockwave (Shadow Wave (HP + MP damage), Ice Needles (chance of freeze) (L10), YMMV, floor level interps, she may or may pick these up by the end of floor fights)
Maria - Protection (50% boost to DEF), Aiming Device (HP + MP damage, chaos i.e confusion), Berserk, Scatter Beam , Adds fire damage for striking fire weakness - all default
Sharanda - Burn Outs (ST, fire element), Spark Nets (ST, thunder element), Spear Frosts (ST, ice element), Meteor Fall (MT, earth element), Pellet (ST, earth element), Dancing Ray (MT, light element) Funding 330 G (chests only - From game start to Volcano Villude) *Note attack items + equipment for Sharanda/Dart/Lavitz are also available at this stage - I haven't calculated how much G Sharanda would have available from randoms but it exists - 330G is the minimum funding Sharanda has F1 taking into account up to date equipment for the team early game from chests/G from randoms though
Peppita -  Counters (HP +  MP damage, chaos, YMMV, counters base physicals at the least as far as I'm concerned) Short O (840% modifier),  Charge (HP + MP damage), Magic Hook (HP + MP damage , chaos)
Meru - Freezing Ring (two shots) (Rainbow Breath, depending on length of fights)
Nall - Revives dead allies at end of battle

Team vs Mist Dragon + Palmer Meru builds up SP on Mist Dragon while the rest of the girls pile on Palmer to keep Meru safe from serious harm. I can't remember if draining Palmer's MP prevents him from using Mako Gun but if so Maria + Peppita's MP damage may help here.
Team vs Knight, Steelix, Shuckle- MT Dancing Ray abuse. Don't remember how MP works for Pokemans but again MP damage may help nerf enemy offence here + draw this fight to a close quicker. Alternatively if you see non of my stuff as legal and the fight dragging Meru is likely to learn Rainbow Breath from it thus her MP pool grows ! >_>  My girls can hit weakness on the Pokemans anyway though I think. Edit: Yes, yes they do so either MT Dancing Ray abuse for crowd control or Burn Out/Spear Frost/Freezing Ring on Steelix + Pellet/Spear Frost/Freezing Ring for Shuckle.
Team vs Marle, Alice, Priest- MP damage hurts their offence
Team vs Rampage Drive- If second fight was over in a reasonable amount of time Sharanda probably has enough items left over to deal w/th RD in a timely manner (she does w/th the funding I allow) If the other fights were severely drawn out chances are Meru has Rainbow Breath and a larger MP pool. Thus she heals or has four shots of Freezing Ring. Think w/th LoD evolved MP pools upon learning a new spell/increasing a dragoon level become max MP of the new total as long as they having been using MP before then.

I think under my interps this team had plenty enough to manage this floor what w/th Sharanda's item bulk + Nall's revival safety net backing everyone else up. It's not the best team in the floor to start w/th but it's solid with what I allow and I don't think I've been overtly generous with what to give them either >_> It'd be a different story if I was hyping Power Dance, Frozen Daggers, Ice Daggers all for floor one for example ^_^ Yes Rainbow Breath is pushing it a bit but I'd only buy that if this team didn't have as much as I thought and fights were more drawn out than I expected. Maria has Healing now too oh well ^_^

*back to evil LoD team plotting* Working with everyone on this so we'll see how far we get as a team ^_^~

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I dunno Eiko kind of exploded for me. She was 2.0 then though. That's why I was hesitant to pick her over Sharanda this time. Thought she might have MP issues for Rampage Drive. I really had been overestimating Rampage though. Snow mentioned the likes of Sharanda might miss the 2HKO on it ... so it's a  3HKO to average mages? Thanks to Snow for making that more clear to me. That should really help folks in the future =-)

That was more of a matter on the way your team was handled. Eiko has a pretty complete package for a 1.5, but her durability is pretty dang problematic and her speed doesn't impress, and your team lacked ways to cover those issues properly (the rest of the team also wasn't fast, for starters). Not to mention that the ST floor is very mean on her: too much of that outspeed into OHKO junk flying around.

[DjinnAndTonic]

But her damage is pretty late, and extremely tough on her resources. Silence's accuracy wasn't as good in ToD as it was in TotW:RM. I thought it was <50%, even? Also, Revival comes about the same time as Tear's? I just don't see what made Rutee worth more than say... Lunar Jessica?

Half the issues you're addressing are false. Bloody Rose is 32 MP to a high 800~ MP pool endgame (and it's certainly not much lower when you do get it. ToD resource pools were utterly retarded).

For Rutee being worth more than Lunar Jessica? Far more resources, better utility and can actually cover offensive variety in a pinch (she gets a rather notable amount of MT magic throughout various points in the game). Dhyer is about right on the advantages Jess has for getting certain things, but Rutee's MT healing is like floor 4 at the latest or something (do remember it kicking in early and keeping up with your HP until lategame, which doesn't hurt. But I think ToD healing is percentage-based), so it works out well enough. Not to mention she actually gets MT full healing at -some point- instead of never.

Thanks, that really answers that question. It had been a long time since I played ToDo, I was probably confusing things with the remake or ToW:RM myself.

Actually... now I'm kind of sad to see her go... Could have done some interesting stuff with the Elemental Advance Sealstone with her. Rutee, Marle, Meru, Chris, Riddel team for great Water-elemental healing hype. >.>;;

[Nephrite]

On the note of Sealstones (I could add Rutee back in as a 1.5 by the way) here's an idea that's been discussed.


Boost Sealstone - All of a character's statistics are increased by 125%, however, their base cost is increased by 50%.

This would include HP, MP and other things (Like Shadow Hearts SP), probably not weird stats that don't really have an effect (XENOGEARS WEIGHT) but whatever.

I don't think it's too overpowering, it makes some .5s and 1.0s a lot better while not changing their dynamic too much.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

On the note of Sealstones (I could add Rutee back in as a 1.5 by the way) here's an idea that's been discussed.


Boost Sealstone - All of a character's statistics are increased by 125%, however, their base cost is increased by 50%.

This would include HP, MP and other things (Like Shadow Hearts SP), probably not weird stats that don't really have an effect (XENOGEARS WEIGHT) but whatever.

I don't think it's too overpowering, it makes some .5s and 1.0s a lot better while not changing their dynamic too much.

I'd just make that 125% a 25% for wording purposes. I know what you meant, but 125% = 2.25x stat boost.

[Talaysen]

Boost Sealstone - All of a character's statistics are multiplied by 125%, however, their base cost is increased by 50%.

There you go.

"Increased by 25%" could be interpreted as "add 25% to whatever their effective stats were" (e.g. 70%->95%).  People are trying to do that with the Status Symbol Law stone already!

[Bardiche]

I think that is what is intended, Talaysen, so that it doesn't become brutal when held by people who already have high stats in the areas that matter.

[Talaysen]

It says the stats are reduced by 10%.  Not 10% of average.  The interp otherwise just baffles me and makes no sense, honestly.

[Nephrite]

Right, sorry, you guys have to remember I'm not a math person.

This is what I envision when I see these Sealstones used.


Status Symbol Law: Someone who has 100 Speed now has 10% less, or 90. Someone with 90 Speed has 10% less, or 81. I know this is a bit of a headache with things like effective speed so if there's an easier way to word it then I'd be happy to change it so it makes sense from a mathematical point of view.

Likewise with the Boost Sealstone, 100 Speed becomes 125, etc. I can change the wording easily enough.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Alternatively.

Boost Sealstone - All of a character's statistics are multiplied by 1.25, however, their base cost is increased by 50%.

[Bardiche]

Best add whether you round up or down where applicable.

[Yoshiken]

Status Symbol Law: Someone who has 100 Speed now has 10% less, or 90. Someone with 90 Speed has 10% less, or 81. I know this is a bit of a headache with things like effective speed so if there's an easier way to word it then I'd be happy to change it so it makes sense from a mathematical point of view.

Likewise with the Boost Sealstone, 100 Speed becomes 125, etc. I can change the wording easily enough.

...100 isn't the best example to use, as that'd be the same either way. Go with 200:

So, for SSL:
Intended Interp: 200 -> 180.
Incorrect Interp: 200 -> 190.

For Boost:
Intended Interp: 200 -> 250.
Incorrect Interp: 200 -> 225.


Or, as Tal suggested, use multiplication instead of addition.

And.. I'm guessing rounding would just go with the standard rules of maths?

[Nephrite]

Yes, I'll change them like was suggested and just say Multipled by 1.25 and .90 respectively.

[DjinnAndTonic]

This idea came about due to completely selfish motivations, but on the VBL Sealstone, I wonder if there can be some minor changes added? The current reading has it so that Limit meters cannot refill under any circumstances.

I'd guess that the rule is written this way to keep things unambiguous about how various Limit meters charge (damage, defending, attacking). However, I'm wondering if this needs to apply to Limit-meter-filling special abilities (think there's a piece of SH3 equipment that does something like this, too?) like Aeris's Limit skill... the one that's normally so useless anyway... It just seems like such a shame that in the one team I've seen built around Limits, I can't take advantage of Aeris's fairly unique ability to charge her teammates' Limit meters...

Perhaps a minor rewording like 'Limits no longer charge by normal means (attacking/defending/taking damage).' could allow Aeris to be really good addition to a VBL team? Hell, even Snow's Virginia team could benefit from something like that. It would allow Ginny to use her summon or gatling once and still take advantage of the Full FP bar stat boost once Aeris refills it.

Just a thought. I can understand why this might also be the intention of th VBL penalty. But I thought it was worth discussion.

[OblivionKnight]

So, talking with Super about a potential Soji addition...here's what I've thought through.

Floor 1 - Yukiko's Castle (level 12.5)
Floor 2 - NAKED MEN...Bathhouse (level 20)
Floor 3 - Stripclub (level 30)
Floor 4 - Void Quest (level 40)
Floor 5 - Secret Base (level 50)
Floor 6 - Heaven (level 60)
Floor 7 - Magatsu (level 70)
Floor 8 - Yomotsu Hirasaka (level 80)

That's about where I'd see the levels, etc., for each of the areas.  This works nicely...makes it kind of hard to do the last two floors, as there's not much beyond that.  Outside of the Godly Robes (375 DEF, 10 EVA, +10 all stats), his ultimate weapon (...uh...just high ATT and a boost to critical rate, probably doesn't want), and Izanagi-no-Okami (not amazing...).  The best of those is the Godly Robes for the stat boosts.   

The levels added help pick out personas for those levels - i.e., at Yomotsu, all personae except the ones above level 80 (Lucifer, Asura, etc.) would be available.  This seems the fairest way to do it, and helps things stay consistent among views - I could see levels varying, but...I think these work pretty well overall. 

As for accessories...I'd probably say Paper Armband is Stripclub.  Not sure how much the others really matter.

As for secret accessories...OMNIPOTENT ORB!??!?!?!?!

I can set up a full list when I get home - don't have access to my stuff right now.

[Yoshiken]

My initial suggestion to Neph was pretty similar to that, except also took into consideration the Special Fusions. Basically, add +5 to the level for Cross Fusions, +8 for Pentagon and +11 for Hexagon. Or something like that, change numbers accordingly.
My alternative idea was to go by the level they learn their last spell instead of the level they arrive, and have each Persona start with all spells learnt.

Either way, I'm assuming it'd have to be one Persona obtained per floor?

[Talaysen]

Floor 1 - Yukiko's Castle (level 12.5)
Floor 2 - NAKED MEN...Bathhouse (level 20)
Floor 3 - Stripclub (level 30)
Floor 4 - Void Quest (level 40)
Floor 5 - Secret Base (level 50)
Floor 6 - Heaven (level 60)
Floor 7 - Magatsu (level 70)
Floor 8 - Yomotsu Hirasaka (level 80)

Well, for one, there are only 7 floors for maingame.  Honestly, I'm more inclined to do 13, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 80 for levels.  Early on you have a faster level growth rate and same for endgame.  I was notably above your levels pretty much all game, honestly.

Yoshi: Why would it have to be one persona per floor?

[Yoshiken]

a) To not be completely broken, and b) to put a decent cap on the number of Persona. It just seemed to be the logical way to not completely break the dungeon apart and end up with Souji being too godly to include.
I'm not saying just one Persona can be used on each floor, I'm saying one -new- Persona per floor.

[Talaysen]

One new persona per floor is pretty bad considering the others are going to be 10 levels or more lower.  They're not really bringing much to the table.  That restriction REALLY limits Souji's variety and that's his basic use.  (Not to mention it makes him really really horrible for the first few floors.)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

And horrible for the whole dungeon, honestly. Souji's primary problem is not being impossibly broken in the dungeon, he's far more wallable in here than he is both in-game and in-DL, and he has a two-floor slump as -is-. The only limitation to him I see as reasonable is not allowing inheritance, which, while something I disagree with, would at least make some sense and would make research easier.

EDIT: Well, not allowing him to swap Personas besides the up-to-16 he can have stored per floor (you'd choose them before the floor starts) would be reasonable too, since it's an in-game limitation.

[Nephrite]

I think his max is 12. I also wouldn't mind allowing him 2-3 Persona per floor. Inheritance skills are a murky subject, but if there was some way to include them and not be a giant headache I wouldn't mind. Perhaps limit them to one or two per Persona and simply list them on the Persona itself?

Anyway, here's something that's slightly less train-wrecky. It has been suggested that while Ryu3 is good, he isn't great for a 3.0 and I would like to fix that. My proposed idea is to add Master Skills and Enemy Skills to his repertoire. I would love some assistance in figuring out how to implement this. Perhaps "1 Master every 2 floors" for the Mastery skills and then he can get Enemy Skills when they'd normally be available, up to his maximum allotment which I believe is 10?

[OblivionKnight]

Floor 1 - Yukiko's Castle (level 12.5)
Floor 2 - NAKED MEN...Bathhouse (level 20)
Floor 3 - Stripclub (level 30)
Floor 4 - Void Quest (level 40)
Floor 5 - Secret Base (level 50)
Floor 6 - Heaven (level 60)
Floor 7 - Magatsu (level 70)
Floor 8 - Yomotsu Hirasaka (level 80)

Well, for one, there are only 7 floors for maingame.  Honestly, I'm more inclined to do 13, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 80 for levels.  Early on you have a faster level growth rate and same for endgame.  I was notably above your levels pretty much all game, honestly.

Yoshi: Why would it have to be one persona per floor?

Well, yeah, I didn't realize it was only 7 floors...I don't follow the dungeon too closely.  So...yeah, levels increased overall by 1/8 works. 

I...really, really disagree with limiting his personas (except when necessary...i.e., the lower level limits).  I mean, if that's the case you want to follow, then make a list of personas to pick each floor.  i.e., first floor, Izanagi and one other.  Next floor, either 2 from the previous floor, or 1 from the new pick, etc.  I don't agree with that, as it...really isn't how he works - let him have all the personas at that level for the floor, like in-game.  I probably wouldn't consider the inheritance myself...but, I don't see a problem with it (if you allow it DL-wise, I'd say it follows here...of course, it does balance him a little more).  His max is 12, by the way...8 initially, 10 at level 10, and 12 at level 20+.

Alternatively, give him full broken but team auto-loses if he dies?!~?!?!

I'll work on a list tonight, I guess, if people care, of the relevant ones.