Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[OblivionKnight]

Yeah, it's something I threw around.  No idea how to handle it appropriately - someone can think of that >_> 

You could just say the last 2 skills won't be learned by the end of the floor up through BRITNEY, BITCH, while the last won't be learned on the floor until Secret Base.  Obviously, a persona of a lower floor in use on a higher one would have all their skills. 

[Clear Tranquil]

Glance Reviver isn't until Floor 7, until then you have mid-game VP2 Light Warrior weapons. Yeah.

For those of you that remember/know VPII better than Neph and I - can Lenneth equip that Farewell/Valkyrie Sword from Leone?

I don't remember Light Warrior damage really (I only used Hrist which doesn't really count) - all I remember is Heavy Warrior SMASH and archer seal stone abuse. I'm assuming their damage is better than mages though! >_>

I don't want a sudden derpth of offence before F7 if the team manages to hit F4-F6 but I'm hoping Power Dance/Lise debuffs might pick up the slack there. It might not be as overkill as I first thought it might be due to apparently misplaced Lenneth SMASH respect but oh well.

There's always Floor 3, when she first gets her debuffs.

Yesu ... and they're MT on the MT floor >_>

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Glance Reviver isn't until Floor 7, until then you have mid-game VP2 Light Warrior weapons. Yeah.

For those of you that remember/know VPII better than Neph and I - can Lenneth equip that Farewell/Valkyrie Sword from Leone?

Soooooooooooooo not legal. Every Light Warrior can equip it, there's no starting equipment claim and it's OPG even ignoring how it's a weapon you won't get period sans massive grinding.

Also, Hrist is a Heavy Warrior in Light Warrior clothing, so she doesn't count indeed. >_> Saddeningly, Light Warriors are a lot closer to mages than they are to anybody else in the damage scale.

[Clear Tranquil]

Thanks Snow. Well I'll keep my options open.

Yeah I doubted the legality of those for peeps. Worth asking about though! Pfff there's no conning a Snow!

I'll be runnin' the LoD syenergy team first anyway (super wants to see the team in action!) so yeah no need to sweat right now. There might be viable changes to the dungeon to work with by the time it pops up!

I have an excuse to replay VPII anyway to see if Alicia or Rufus might be more viable for points than Lenneth/possibly freeing up points to mess with other choices and to refamiliarise myself with storebought equips + status blockers.

Also Hrist yesu.

... and Dylan <3 I could let go of smacking Hydra with Dylan last time I played so that's why the replay stalled >_>


Edit: Ahhh when does Chaz pick up revival? I'd ttlly use Tidus for inititiave Haste + Power Dance/Lise debuffs abuse if he had magic for Rampage Drive. Maybe Rampage will be gone in the future though. Yes. I can dream.

[Nephrite]

Yeah, it's something I threw around.  No idea how to handle it appropriately - someone can think of that >_> 

You could just say the last 2 skills won't be learned by the end of the floor up through BRITNEY, BITCH, while the last won't be learned on the floor until Secret Base.  Obviously, a persona of a lower floor in use on a higher one would have all their skills. 

Something Yoshiken and I thought about was using a formula like so: (Floor level * 11) - 5.  The idea here was that we'd just allow all Persona skills for a Persona, but use the level of the final skill on the Persona. For example, Hassou Tobi is level 83, so with this Formula it wouldn't be available until Floor 8. So, on Floor 1, and I know this kind of fudges things a little bit, but he could use anything that learned something at 6. This formula can be futzed with a little bit but I thought it might help a smidge in terms of figuring out "when does he learn such and such" by simply removing the question but making him possibly wait an extra floor for a Persona.

[Bardiche]

Edit: Ahhh when does Chaz pick up revival? I'd ttlly use Tidus for inititiave Haste + Power Dance/Lise debuffs abuse if he had magic for Rampage Drive. Maybe Rampage will be gone in the future though. Yes. I can dream.

I've been told RD has been replaced.

[Nephrite]

Since people have been worried about it:

Floor 1: An Introduction
Team vs. Palmer and Mist Dragon
Team vs. Steelix, Shuckle and FF1 Knight
Team vs. Marle, Alice and FFT Priest
Team vs. Change Relic
Team vs. Lich (FF1)

[Bardiche]

This is probably getting ahead of myself, but I thought I'd work this out anyway, because theories are most fun.

Team 1: Defenders (Resourceless)
Alex, Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete
Sasarai, Suikoden 3
Mew, Pokémon
Eiko, Final Fantasy IX
Peppita, Star Ocean 3

Alex has great damage in Sword's Dance on Floor 1 (only has to compete with Luna and Ramus physicals), while Sasarai brings Earthquake, Mew has Transform, Eiko has great healing and Peppita uh, does something! The team, at later floors, is meant to spoil damage: Alex has White Dragon Protect to block magic, and Blue Dragon Healing to get everyone back up on their feet. Sasarai brings excellent damage to the table and Full Healing as well as Revival.

Eiko does what she does best and has Carbuncle! Mew has Reflect/Light Screen! Peppita uh, has healing dances, or Power Dances so after the first turn Alex brings pain with Sword Dance and Mew can Mega Punch. (or Transform into Alex for more Sword Dance cheese).

Issues with the team is that while it has 3 revivers, none of them start with it, and Sasarai/Alex revival charges are limited. Resourceless helps Alex in spamming dragons on those floors that need it, or Sasarai Land of Eternity as necessary. On failure Peppita can wield it.

-------------

Team 2: Overkill (Multi-Target)
Ted, Suikoden IV
Hugo, Suikoden III
Raja, Phantasy Star IV
Jane, Wild ARMs Alter Code F
Eiko, Final Fantasy IX

Clearly meant to deal very high damage... a lot. Until Floor 4, team relies on Hugo's Sleep gimmick to allow Ted to cast whatever spells are useful for dealing damage. His damage isn't too horrible without Judgement, and Hugo has Shredding Winds, too. Raja restores the party's MP/HP as necessary. Jane speeds everyone up later for initiative TFR/Judgement damage, with Raja recovering the MP to ensure they can do it enough times. Eiko heals, Carbuncles, revives, whatever.

Clearly the team's weakness is in early-dungeon offense, and Jane is... not that great, considering Ted and Hugo aren't slow. Raja is, though. Need some elegant way to circumvent slow speeds, while keeping MP healing and revival so Ted can cast Judgement for MT (near-)OHKO damage each turn. (2250 damage against 440 or so average, so 1125 damage under Multi-Target... 2.5x average is 1100)

//Edit: Right, average in stat topic is 478, not 440. This means 2.5x would be 1300 damage... still nearly OHKO off Judgement alone, and by that time Hugo should have the TFR.

I'm thinking Hugo or Jane can be replaced, but Hugo's Sleep is solid against PCs and allows the team to get by without Follow Me! on the earlygame.


Thoughts on either team?

[Dhyerwolf]

//Edit: Right, average in stat topic is 478, not 440. This means 2.5x would be 1300 damage... still nearly OHKO off Judgement alone, and by that time Hugo should have the TFR.

1100 is actually closer (Once I finally get around to getting all the info needed to get the redone stat topic up), since the current topic really underrates enemy defense.

[Bardiche]

//Edit: Right, average in stat topic is 478, not 440. This means 2.5x would be 1300 damage... still nearly OHKO off Judgement alone, and by that time Hugo should have the TFR.

1100 is actually closer (Once I finally get around to getting all the info needed to get the redone stat topic up), since the current topic really underrates enemy defense.

... MT OHKO hype off Ted's Judgement in the dungeon? Very want.

[Dhyerwolf]

It's effectively ITD too...

[Bardiche]

How do you mean "effectively"?

[dude789]

Hugo seems like an odd pick and he doesn't really work well with the team. I'd replace him with someone who starts out stronger than him so the team can make it through the first few floors.

[Dhyerwolf]

How do you mean "effectively"?

You need massive, massive Mdef to start even taking a bite out of Ted's damage thanks to his 4 and his high magic. Just isn't going to do any extra damage to Kongol or something.

[Bardiche]

How do you mean "effectively"?

You need massive, massive Mdef to start even taking a bite out of Ted's damage thanks to his 4 and his high magic. Just isn't going to do any extra damage to Kongol or something.

So if 1100 is an accurate killpoint, his damage is decidedly twice PCHP? -grumbles something about Ted losing to Jade-

Hugo seems like an odd pick and he doesn't really work well with the team. I'd replace him with someone who starts out stronger than him so the team can make it through the first few floors.

I was mostly thinking about the Sleep to help out some on the early floors, and his fireballs of doom to do damage beyond Ted's Judgement (dark-immune enemies) or to mop up whatever he can't OHKO.

As I see it, alternatives are Emily, Ivan, Jerin, LUNETH?!, Magus, Mew?, Raquel, Rune, Terra, or maybe Alys or Chaz, but there's not a whole lot of 3.0s that I think do status plenty-good. Some of these just have good damage, or whatever.

[OblivionKnight]

The whole build is edited in for Soji.  Hopefully that's all relevant stuff.  Let me know how it looks, and if anything's missing.

[dude789]

I'd say go for either Rune or Ivan. Ivan will probably be better in the long run but Rune helps a lot to punch through the first floors.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

How do you mean "effectively"?

You need massive, massive Mdef to start even taking a bite out of Ted's damage thanks to his 4 and his high magic. Just isn't going to do any extra damage to Kongol or something.

So if 1100 is an accurate killpoint, his damage is decidedly twice PCHP? -grumbles something about Ted losing to Jade-

Y'know, Jade survives two shots of that anyway and OHKOs Ted while at it. <_< BoF1 endgame boss HP.

[Glen Veil]

On the subject of which XF PC would be best for the dungeon, I was thinking if we're going to ban the MP Burst + Intrude Combo, that maybe Levin would be a better choice to use.  XF abilities are mostly single target, and a majority of the PC overpoweredness comes from the intrude spam with Mp burst combo, without it people like Felius are still good, just probably not 4.0 potential since he's average speed and essentially status bait.

Levin runs a much better early game then Felius since he can cancel turns off of really good speed, but isn't as inherently overpowered as Clarissa who can basically just go down a line stealing turns from fastest to slowest.  I would also say Levin probably has slightly more useful support skills from his base class then Felius, such as Execrate for the status slinging once the Emulator class opens up.  He also has better versatility in that he doesn't mind being built into a mage as much as Felius does.

[Clear Tranquil]

Zuh? Life is one of Eiko's starting skills I thought  

+Mew can use Transform from F1? I like this idea~

[Nephrite]

There have been a few changes to point values, folks, so please check the wiki. Of note, Kyogre is 4.0 and Garnet is now 2.5 again.

[Bardiche]

Changing my team then.

1. Bardiche | Jerin, Eileen, Lucian & Shiho, Garnet, Nall

to

1. Bardiche | Deis2, Eileen, Lucian & Shiho, Eiko, Nall

Still the MT stone on Lucian.

[Clear Tranquil]

*gnaws* Shouldn't you post that in the other thread also? Eh just as long as Neph knows =-)

Since more people than I have expressed an interest in using her (Uno/Bard - YAY I AM NOT ALONE!") I thought it might be good if we could all come up with some sort of rough compromise over Peppita's restorative dances.

Ok here's the max data -

Healing Dance L10 - 8 Healing Dances in a chain with Berserk only, 38 ticks per dance
HP restore per tick - ~450 per tick average at 100% (15'960), 787 at 175% (29'906), 900 at 200% (34'200), 1125 at 250% (42'750), and 1350 at 300%, 300%, 300%, 300% (51'300 x 3)

Potential healing - 276'716
Average PC end game - 13'388
Peppita's HP end game - 12'086

Idea -1

Ideal  DL combo - Healing Dance X (6 CP) > Frozen Daggers/Instanto Blast/Magic Hook (3/4/2 CP) + No Guard (5CP) - Heals (roughly 138358 in a full chain) until she freezes/IDs/confuses things ded~

-or-

Counter/Stun/No Guard - Peppita counters base physicals with Stun as her added effect (it's a passive SO3 characters learn) and uses the time bought when/if Stun triggers to heal up.

Idea 2- Peppita just restores the HP that was lost - say the enemy did 3000 damage - Peppita just restores that and then immediately chains into Power Dance/something else - that's what I'd do in game just restore the HP that was hurt but yeah in game.

Idea 3- Peppita restores X% HP per turn based on what people decide from the above data *looks at Snow* (I'd say she chains immediately from the first dance w/o letting that or any in the chain run up to 300% ASAP and then let's the 300% one run*

I could run Idea 3 past SO3's final and see how much HP Peppita restores before/if she's knocked out of it if peeps want. Without No Guard to reduce the chance of her being knocked out of it that is!

[Bardiche]

... Yes, yes, I should. This is where I facepalm and uh, blame someone for my incompetence.

[Nephrite]

I'm vaguely confused, CT. Is Healing Dance like regen over time that allows her to do other things while it's going on?