Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Brainstorming Topic!

[Taishyr]

I am sad Body Charge is slightly nerfed, but if I read this right it also boosts characters without a speed stat (average speed) to 120%? This makes it better overall probably but still not overpowered (better mainly in "who uses it well").

Requesting clarification on new MT sealstone: does this allow targets to be chosen, ala L2, or is it forced full available targets?

Approve very much of the status symbol improvement, maybe I'll use it now. >_>

Vantage... does this affect your entire team, or one person?

Violent Burst I can't speak enough for to help on, except I kinda liked the previous one more as well. Djinn's suggestion works, I think?

[ThePiggyman]

Requesting clarification on new MT sealstone: does this allow targets to be chosen, ala L2, or is it forced full available targets?

Forced to automatically target everyone it can.

[Taishyr]

Gotcha. I approve, then.

An idea re: VBL: 100% at start, 1/4th growth rate from there, usual "doesn't reset due to fight change" clause?

Makes it -really damn hard- to use the limits past the first one, but the potential's still there?

[DjinnAndTonic]

Do note that my suggestion means that if you have Aeris + Raquel in a VBL party, then Raquel can blow all her FP in one turn (Intrudex4), then Aeris can use her Limit bar to charge Raquel's to full again (another Intrudex4).

Might be too broken, so you may want to stick with the original VBL effect (which is still amazingly elegant even if it doesn't allow the gauges to be filled again).

[dude789]

I think violent burst could work better if it started at 100% and filled at half the rate afterwards. That  way it's still good for limit characters, but if you put some effort into it you can refill their gauges.

Also, Neph I'm a bit confused by your description of the new vantage sealstone. Does this also work on people who don't normally get counters?

[Taishyr]

Which is a lot of setup (since neither of those can revive, and both are kinda sluggish), and building your team around this kinda smells like disaster. But yes, it can be abused. So can a lot of things. *Shrug* I like my suggestion, kinda.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I think violent burst could work better if it started at 100% and filled at half the rate afterwards. That  way it's still good for limit characters, but if you put some effort into it you can refill their gauges.

Also, Neph I'm a bit confused by your description of the new vantage sealstone. Does this also work on people who don't normally get counters?

Oh, that's pretty good, too. That means that even if Aeris wastes her Limit bar on the Limit-refilling skill, it would (presumably) only refill 50% of Limit gauges. This is still -amazingly- helpful when Limit gain has been cut to 50% speed, but not nearly as broken as Intrudex8.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Which is a lot of setup (since neither of those can revive, and both are kinda sluggish), and building your team around this kinda smells like disaster. But yes, it can be abused. So can a lot of things. *Shrug* I like my suggestion, kinda.

*shrugs* Timelord's OPF shot of 'I win' tends to get teams pretty far. Cloud, Tear, Virginia, Raquel, FF9 PCs, SH3 Stock-Double can probably get that same kind of OPF 'I win' damage out of this whenever they want. It's a decent strategy, I'd wager.

Lilka gets a nice boost from this, too, and it doesn't drain her FP meter unless she uses Mystic.

I'm not sure how useful VBL is for LoD PCs either, now that I think about it... Probably not great in its original form. With a 1/4 or 1/2 recharge time though, it'd be awesome.

Of course, with a 1/4 or 1/2 recharge time, it'd be good for just about -any- limit meter. There's not a lot of drawback, even for the Lufia2 or SoA cast.

VP1/2... still a headache.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I honestly prefer something that doesn't entirely neuter gauge growth. Unlike Djinn, I find the sealstone to be terribly designed as it was originally made, because it's a downright liability for -most- of the people it was supposed to be a strategical option. An amount of PCs that can be counted on less than ten fingers make it crazy abusable, sure, but that makes it even more noticeable as a poorly built sealstone. 50%/50% is acceptable

[Nephrite]

Vantage Effect would apply to people even without counters, yes.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Would the effect be automatic or would the character have a choice to counter or not counter?

[dude789]

I honestly prefer something that doesn't entirely neuter gauge growth. Unlike Djinn, I find the sealstone to be terribly designed as it was originally made, because it's a downright liability for -most- of the people it was supposed to be a strategical option. An amount of PCs that can be counted on less than ten fingers make it crazy abusable, sure, but that makes it even more noticeable as a poorly built sealstone. 50%/50% is acceptable

Hold on, if it was 50% start 50% growth that sealstone would not have any benefit. Since it fills at half the rate it would take the same amount of effort to go from 50-100 as it would to get from 0-100 normally. I think that start at 100%, but fill at half the rate after is really the most elegant solution.

Also, gut says the Vantage sealstone is a bit overpowered now? I think it would be more interesting if it was limited to characters who normally countered so it would work the same as WA ACF Inertia cancels.

[074]

Violent Burst Law: Gauges start at 50% but you gain the gauge 50% slower.

This is 100% useless as a lot of people already allow characters to start battles with 50% gauges. And making the the gain slower means that a lot of characters will never see limits anyway. I don't see what was wrong with it before?

In the DL, perhaps.  I've noticed it seems to be a much more accepted assumption that you start the dungeon with 0% gauge, though, and then base the gauges then on how they act in-game (those that go down after each fight, do.  Those that persist, do)

[Nephrite]

Would the effect be automatic or would the character have a choice to counter or not counter?

I would say it would be by choice, though that might muck up a lot of things.

[Tide]

I didn't like the fact that people were entirely cut off from using the gauges at all.

I'll just list what I thought of although we have some ideas already. I think you can keep the "gauge starts at 100%" effect. My thought to curb this is that the gauge cannot recharge unless a character on the team dies. At which point the gauge can be filled up to a maximum of X% where X is equal to 100% divided by the number of party members on the team. People may end up reviving easy to kill PCs to restore gauges, so you can also add an extra clause where when PCs are revived, then the gauge is reduced by the same X%.

Predicted intended effect: Allows PCs to reuse their gauges, provides the same one shot benefit of the original VBL. Keeps thematics with "Violent" burst (gauge only recharges when someone dies). Harder battles will likely see more use.

Downsides: Some characters still cannot use it effectively. Needing PCs to die and only restoring X% means that limit metres for example won't refill.

I think it would be more interesting if it was limited to characters who normally countered so it would work the same as WA ACF Inertia cancels.

This is true. But also because ACF Inertia cancel and WA3 Inertia cancel required 25 FP cost to do, which is a pretty hefty trade off. Not sure how the dungeon can adapt this...maybe "all characters can and will automatically counter. CT resets to 0 upon counter. Characters may choose not to counter at 25% of their MHP".

[DjinnAndTonic]

I honestly prefer something that doesn't entirely neuter gauge growth. Unlike Djinn, I find the sealstone to be terribly designed as it was originally made, because it's a downright liability for -most- of the people it was supposed to be a strategical option. An amount of PCs that can be counted on less than ten fingers make it crazy abusable, sure, but that makes it even more noticeable as a poorly built sealstone. 50%/50% is acceptable

I'm thinking there are less PCs for whom this is a liability than a benefit, and it really depends on how you build your team. If you build your VBL team around the notion of using the skills fast and once, then it's doing what it was designed to do.

Starting with 50% and growing at 50% speed would work fine for Lufia2 and SoA characters (and maybe LoD characters depending on what you consider '50% starting'), but it's useless for FF7, FF9, Tear, other slow-growth Limits. I don't think it helps WAs PCs either. Lilka already starts with pretty high FP, so merely starting at 50% and growing more slowly's not really a boon. WA3/4 PCs wouldn't mind it if they start -every- battle with 50%, but then you have a situation where Raquel uses Intrudex2 every battle. If they only get a OPF 50% starting boost, it's not really worth the reduced charging rate.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I honestly prefer something that doesn't entirely neuter gauge growth. Unlike Djinn, I find the sealstone to be terribly designed as it was originally made, because it's a downright liability for -most- of the people it was supposed to be a strategical option. An amount of PCs that can be counted on less than ten fingers make it crazy abusable, sure, but that makes it even more noticeable as a poorly built sealstone. 50%/50% is acceptable

I'm thinking there are less PCs for whom this is a liability than a benefit, and it really depends on how you build your team. If you build your VBL team around the notion of using the skills fast and once, then it's doing what it was designed to do.

Thing is there isn't a -single- VBL team that doesn't basically ruthlessly abuse the full gauge without using it outside of a single fight per floor where it's useful at all, and for most of those casts, they're either likely to use limits -multiple times per floor- or enemies are likely to stay away from those characters with limits - thus limiting their options. VBL as it stood benefitted... Virginia and Lilka. Nobody else in practice. Everybody else either prefers the threat of their limit gauges building or to have their standard gauges build up gradually and use those in a spread-out manner. This is horrible. I'm pretty open to the idea of doing something else instead of 50%/50% (I... honestly think I like the idea of 100/50%, actually, which would actually benefit the casts that use the Sealstone), but as it was originally, it was just poor form.

[dude789]

Okay so amongst all the sealstone discussion in chat we thought of a new character.

Hilda (SH3) Chooses one form per floor and sticks with it for the entire floor. 2.0
Advantages: Depending on the form you choose she can play many roles. Can choose between solid MT damage, brutal physical damage, and ID and healing. Good buffs and great compatibility with other SH3 characters are nice too.
Disadvantages: Slim and Pink Bat Hilda are frail. Curvy Hilda is slow and lacks damage. Some of her skills are late.

Also for reference
Floor 1: Stellar Magics, Grand Slam, Thorn Whip
Floor 3: Pumpkin Bomb, Happiness Gift, Energy Charge
Floor 5:  Floral Ray, Full Bloom

[DjinnAndTonic]

I honestly prefer something that doesn't entirely neuter gauge growth. Unlike Djinn, I find the sealstone to be terribly designed as it was originally made, because it's a downright liability for -most- of the people it was supposed to be a strategical option. An amount of PCs that can be counted on less than ten fingers make it crazy abusable, sure, but that makes it even more noticeable as a poorly built sealstone. 50%/50% is acceptable

I'm thinking there are less PCs for whom this is a liability than a benefit, and it really depends on how you build your team. If you build your VBL team around the notion of using the skills fast and once, then it's doing what it was designed to do.

Thing is there isn't a -single- VBL team that doesn't basically ruthlessly abuse the full gauge without using it outside of a single fight per floor where it's useful at all, and for most of those casts, they're either likely to use limits -multiple times per floor- or enemies are likely to stay away from those characters with limits - thus limiting their options. VBL as it stood benefitted... Virginia and Lilka. Nobody else in practice. Everybody else either prefers the threat of their limit gauges building or to have their standard gauges build up gradually and use those in a spread-out manner. This is horrible. I'm pretty open to the idea of doing something else instead of 50%/50% (I... honestly think I like the idea of 100/50%, actually, which would actually benefit the casts that use the Sealstone), but as it was originally, it was just poor form.

I disagree with this. Just because a character is trading one strategy for another, it doesn't make a VBL strategy inferior. WA characters are trading multiple uses of their FP skills for instant access to to use of them. This could -definitely- be a winning trade in many cases. Similarly, Cloud having a shot of Omnislash right of the bat is pretty awesome, even though you can argue that getting insta-turns from a L1 limit is better. But it's situational. Even for the SoA/L2 casts, the idea is that having instant access to awesome skills -can- be useful, it's just a different strategy. And one more in line with blitzing than defensive play.

And since when has the Dungeon rewarded defensive play?

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay so amongst all the sealstone discussion in chat we thought of a new character.

Hilda (SH3) Chooses one form per floor and sticks with it for the entire floor. 2.0
Advantages: Depending on the form you choose she can play many roles. Can choose between solid MT damage, brutal physical damage, and ID and healing. Good buffs and great compatibility with other SH3 characters are nice too.
Disadvantages: Slim and Pink Bat Hilda are frail. Curvy Hilda is slow and lacks damage. Some of her skills are late.

Also for reference
Floor 1: Stellar Magics, Grand Slam, Thorn Whip
Floor 3: Pumpkin Bomb, Happiness Gift, Energy Charge
Floor 5:  Floral Ray, Full Bloom

Actually, that's a really cool idea. Also, more Limit characters for VBL! >.>;; ..what?

[Magic Fanatic]

As it stands, Tear really likes having a free battle of speed-casting->Mystic arte damage.

In practice?  That'd only help the spells that Enhance Cast/Witchcraft would anyway.  When I was saying that it didn't affect Nightmare/Grand Cross/Judgement ect. earlier, it...  Technically does, but the thing is that the character's speaking rolls take up so much time, it may as well have no effect anyway.  What Overlimit REALLY does for her is increasing the damage she deals, reducing the damage she takes, and makes it that hitting her doesn't throw her out of her spells...  Which, in terms of the last, would work how here?

FF9 characters might be able to use Trance with this, too. I know that the stone protects against Limit meters draining under normal gameplay restrictions (i.e. WA3/4 PCs don't lose their FP just because a new battle starts - it -only- drains when the PC 'spends' the points). So it's possible that FF9 PCs can Trance at will once per floor. I don't remember the Trance mechanics well enough anymore to be sure how appropriate that would be.

FF9 characters have their gauges filled by taking damage, and once they have a full gauge, they are automatically forced into Trance Mode, with their actions then drain the gauge at a rather rapid rate.  So...  Trancing out the first fight, then no more threat of that for the rest of the floor under the current definition.

Changes proposed:

Vantage Effect: Characters attacked counter with any damage attack from their skillset when damaged. This resets their CT to 0.

I'm assuming this doesn't work on the turn that characters die?  Still, this is more useful for slow bruisers, and really kind of eats the MT floor alive with good enough healing.

Also, what happens when the character has no damage move in their skillset?  Just defaults to a basic physical, or it does nothing?

Changes proposed:

Violent Burst Law: Gauges start at 50% but you gain the gauge 50% slower.

I like the proposed idea of 100% start/25-50% gain rate.  Might also want to specify if things like Aeris's 2-2 Limit (Fury Boost or whatever?) only gives a % of the gauge on its own (like it'd only give 25% of a gauge under a normal 25% gain rate).  Does the original idea that VBL prevents gauge loss from causes other than characters using the gauge still kick in, as well?



Suggestion for Elemental Advance: At certain percentages, it starts ignoring certain features on targets, like...  At 50%, it treats absorption as immunity and immunity as 50% resistance and ignores resistance...  75% has it another step up, and then maxing out at 100% where an element would deal normal damage instead of a target absorbing it?



Also, for other unanswered questions:

Love Love: So, what happens with genderless targets, like Ditto and Worker 8, or generics that can actually have different genders in-game, like FFT Ninja, Pikachu, or even the FF5 Blue Mage (Having Lenna/Faris/Krile vs. Galuf/Bartz?)?

[ThePiggyman]

FF9 characters might be able to use Trance with this, too. I know that the stone protects against Limit meters draining under normal gameplay restrictions (i.e. WA3/4 PCs don't lose their FP just because a new battle starts - it -only- drains when the PC 'spends' the points). So it's possible that FF9 PCs can Trance at will once per floor. I don't remember the Trance mechanics well enough anymore to be sure how appropriate that would be.

FF9 characters have their gauges filled by taking damage, and once they have a full gauge, they are automatically forced into Trance Mode, with their actions then drain the gauge at a rather rapid rate.  So...  Trancing out the first fight, then no more threat of that for the rest of the floor under the current definition.

Concerning this, Neph said he'd ponder letting FF9 characters choose when they Tranced. I mean, it'd finally give them -some- use out of it, but I suppose we'd have to implement -some- kind of drawback for them, seeing as no one has ever worried about them Trancing in the Dungeon regardless, knowing how long it takes.

[DjinnAndTonic]

FF9 characters might be able to use Trance with this, too. I know that the stone protects against Limit meters draining under normal gameplay restrictions (i.e. WA3/4 PCs don't lose their FP just because a new battle starts - it -only- drains when the PC 'spends' the points). So it's possible that FF9 PCs can Trance at will once per floor. I don't remember the Trance mechanics well enough anymore to be sure how appropriate that would be.

FF9 characters have their gauges filled by taking damage, and once they have a full gauge, they are automatically forced into Trance Mode, with their actions then drain the gauge at a rather rapid rate.  So...  Trancing out the first fight, then no more threat of that for the rest of the floor under the current definition.

Concerning this, Neph said he'd ponder letting FF9 characters choose when they Tranced. I mean, it'd finally give them -some- use out of it, but I suppose we'd have to implement -some- kind of drawback for them, seeing as no one has ever worried about them Trancing in the Dungeon regardless, knowing how long it takes.

Considering that FF7 characters aren't forced to use their Limits right away, and that WAs characters can choose when to use their FP instead of it draining after every battle, I figured this was a given?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

FF9 characters can't choose when to use their Trances in-game, unlike WA PCs and FF7 PCs.

[DjinnAndTonic]

In that case, Snow...

FF9 characters have their gauges filled by taking damage, and once they have a full gauge, they are automatically forced into Trance Mode, with their actions then drain the gauge at a rather rapid rate.  So...  Trancing out the first fight, then no more threat of that for the rest of the floor under the current definition.

This is still pretty much a nice benefit to tack onto any FF9 PC. It's not like it hurts their usefulness any, since they were hardly, if ever, seeing Trance in the Dungeon anyway.

As it stands, Tear really likes having a free battle of speed-casting->Mystic arte damage.

In practice?  That'd only help the spells that Enhance Cast/Witchcraft would anyway.  When I was saying that it didn't affect Nightmare/Grand Cross/Judgement ect. earlier, it...  Technically does, but the thing is that the character's speaking rolls take up so much time, it may as well have no effect anyway.  What Overlimit REALLY does for her is increasing the damage she deals, reducing the damage she takes, and makes it that hitting her doesn't throw her out of her spells...  Which, in terms of the last, would work how here?

The damage increase is noticeable, true, but a slight speed boost would be useful for her getting another turn, if she wanted to say... heal everyone before she used her next turn to let loose the Mystic Arte and kill whomever.

Also, for other unanswered questions:

Love Love: So, what happens with genderless targets, like Ditto and Worker 8, or generics that can actually have different genders in-game, like FFT Ninja, Pikachu, or even the FF5 Blue Mage (Having Lenna/Faris/Krile vs. Galuf/Bartz?)?

Didn't this get called as normal damage? Or maybe Neph left it up to voter interpretation? You can assume they have whatever gender seems right to you IIRC? Or just take them as neutral to the sealstone? It's generally not enough of an issue to make a rule out of it?