Final Fantasy VIII

[Shale]

From OblivionKnight.

Yes, read it. Since there was discussion a while ago about PC stats, I'm posting them here for reference. Maybe I'll do something more to it later. All stats take at level 100, for all the temps and permanent PCs.

HP - Duh
STR - Physical Attack
VIT - Physical Defense
MAG - Magical Attack
SPR - Magical Defense
SPD - Speed
LUK - Luck


Squall
HP - 4187
STR - 47
VIT - 41
MAG - 45
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 22

Rinoa
HP - 4181
STR - 67
VIT - 31
MAG - 63
SPR - 39
SPD - 36
LUK - 22

Quistis
HP - 3883
STR - 46
VIT - 30
MAG - 42
SPR - 34
SPD - 34
LUK - 21

Zell
HP - 4018
STR - 47
VIT - 33
MAG - 42
SPR - 27
SPD - 35
LUK - 20

Selphie
HP - 3680
STR - 45
VIT - 28
MAG - 49
SPR - 38
SPD - 37
LUK - 26

Irvine
HP - 3880
STR - 45
VIT - 31
MAG - 42
SPR - 28
SPD - 39
LUK - 21

Laguna
HP - 4148
STR - 48
VIT - 41
MAG - 46
SPR - 36
SPD - 37
LUK - 21

Kiros
HP - 3728
STR - 43
VIT - 31
MAG - 50
SPR - 41
SPD - 48
LUK - 23

Ward
HP - 4768
STR - 56
VIT - 44
MAG - 36
SPR - 30
SPD - 27
LUK - 14

Seifer
HP - 5823
STR - 48
VIT - 39
MAG - 45
SPR - 38
SPD - 45
LUK - 19

Edea
HP - 3777
STR - 41
VIT - 20
MAG - 55
SPR - 45
SPD - 31
LUK - 15


Bosses: taken at the highest level before the level cap.

Edea - Level 32
HP - 16000
STR - 13
VIT - 66
MAG - 118
SPR - 174
SPD - 24
Evade - 8

Spell List: Blizzaga, Demi, Esuna ( others? )

Fujin - Level 44
HP - 18200
STR - 110
VIT - 61
MAG - 99
SPR - 156
SPD - 41
Evade - 15

Spell List: Aero, Curaga, Full-Life, Tornado, Haste, Reflect ( more? )

Rajin - Level 44
HP - 22600
STR - 129
VIT - 132
MAG - 51
SPR - 12
SPD - 37
Evade - 4

Spell List: Thundaga, Protect, Shell ( more? )

Seifer - Level 45
HP - 34500
STR - 124
VIT - 125
MAG - 179
SPR - 145
SPD - 55
Evade - 2

Spell List: Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, Aura, Dispel, Haste ( more? )

Adel - Level 46
HP - 51000
STR - 131
VIT - 110
MAG - 148
SPR - 136
SPD - 56
Evade - 2

Spell List: Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, Quake, Ultima ( more? )

[Shale]

From Super:

Some related stats.

Seifer- Fire Cross (No Mercy) 3x damage, hits all on the screen. Can be used at nearly full HP. Non-elemental.

Squall- Renzokuken 2-4x damage, ST. Chance of a follow up. (All are fairly weak, besides Lionheart.) Can be used at 35% life and below.


Seifer>Squall>>Rinoa, for best damage pre limit. Auto crits put the gunblade users ahead. Scaled, Seifer's Hyperion is about as strong as Lionheart.

EDIT: I'll put up stat averages in a bit.



A note: How you take unjunctioned stats and damage is your call. Unjunctioned stats tend to be unimpressive in game. How you scale them or treat them is.. yeah. I'm not touching that with a 50 foot poll.

Average HP= 3971
Average strength= 49.5
Average VIT= 32
Average SPR= 33
Average SPD= 36
Average LUK= 22
Physical damage = 653 (1633 kill point)

Weapon stats:

Irvine-Exeter +13

Rinoa-Shooting Star +17

Selphie-Strange Vision +13

Zell-Ehrgeiz +18

Quistis-Save the Queen +13

Squall-Lionheart +31

Boosts from utlimate weapons. *Shrug* As for the temps.. you can scale their weapons up, if you think it fits. Seifer has by far the best claim, as he's in your party at a time when all weapons give a 0 boost, and the fact that he uses improved version of Fire Cross each time you fight him.

Edea has the weakest claim, as she joins by the time you should have done some upgrading.

[Shale]

Attack scores, from the Elf:

I should add in Attack scores, now that we have weapon bonuses and Strength.

Rinoa: 84
Squall: 78 (*1.5)
Zell: 65
Quistis: 59
Irvine: 58
Selphie: 58

Average: 67 (73 if you count Squall's crit bonus as *1.5)

[Shale]

Renzokuken is 4-8 hits. How many Squall gets, as well as the odds of each finisher, are dependant on how 'critical' he is. That is, if he's barely low enough to Limit at all, he's most likely to get a 4 hit Renzokuken and not use a finisher, while if he's 1 Hp and Aura-ed, he'll almost certainly get a 7-8 hit and has (at a guess) a 1 in 4 for Lionheart.
Actually, Zell, Selphie, Irving, and Rinoa all have similar mechanics. Zell and Irving get more time the more critical they are, Selphie's odds of high end draws (triple Ultima/Meteor, The End) increases, and Rinoa has better odds of drawing Invincible Moon/Wishing Star.
I don't remember Irvine at the moment, but I know Zell ranges from 4 seconds to 12.
I personally average around .33 seconds when alternating punch rush and booya, meaning I'd get about 12 hits even with a minimum Duel. Needless to say, in Light or Middle anyway, I'd consider Zell getting any kind of Limit the end of the match...

[Shale]

The real fun - limits! Thanks, Gourry.

I know jack about the mechanics of FF8 and its Limit system. Basically, if you're at 33% (I think) or so, you can get limit breaks (of course, freaks like Seifer get it earlier). They can also get limits easier if they're inflicted with statuses like Silence and Poison. Everyone's at level 100, and I mainly tested on Geezards (who suck, even at level 100). Crisis affects almost everyone. Squall's Renzokuken do more hits and have a higher chance of getting good finishers if he has high crisis. It also increases the amount of time Irvine and Zell have to do their limits. Selphie has a higher chance for strong spells like Ultima. Tell me if some of this junk doesn't look right.

Squall
---
STR: 58 (89)
LionHeart: +31 STR
255% Hit Rate

Squall's Physical: 745 (1117)

Squall's Renzokuken: 1215 per hit.
4-8 hits, depending on Crisis level. Sometimes leads to a Renzokuken Finisher.

Renzokuken Finishers
---
1. Rough Divide: 1797. ST
2. Fated Circle: 1414. MT
3. Blasting Zone: 1672 MT.
4. Lion Heart: 18x3712 = 66816

Zell
STR: 59 (77)

Zell's Physical: 572

Limit: Duel. Basically, Zell has 4.66, 6.66, 9, or 12 Seconds to pull off as many combos as he can. Booya/Heel Drop seems to be the best one for this.

Booya: 520
Punch Rush: 450
Mach Kick: 605
Heel Drop: 560
Dolphin Strike: 803
Meteor Strike: This is a percentage attack, but I don't know what it is, exactly.

Finishers:
Burning Rave: 1318 (Punch Rush, Mach Kick, Punch Rush, Heel Drop)
Meteor Barret: 1503 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Heel Drop, Booya, Punch Rush, Mach Kick)
Different Beat: 2081 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Heel Drop)
My Final Heaven: 1430 (Booya, Heel Drop, Mach Kick, Punch Rush)

I don't know that any of the finishers are worth doing, but it seems to me that getting to the finishers would be easy after alternating Booya/Heel Drop several times. I dunno if this is stronger than just continuing the sequence, though.

Quistis
---
STR: 58 (71)

Physical: 460

Limit: Blue Magic.
At high crisis, Quistis' limits power up. She either needs incredibly low HP or a pretty debilitating status to achieve this, though.
---
1. Lv? Death: Higher Crisis makes the ? smaller.
2. Degenerator: ID? Or is it like Black Dragon Grief?
3. Micro Missile: Does 50% of target's max HP. (75%)
4. Fire Breath: 1824 (2900)
5. Bad Breath: Sleep, Poison, Silence, Blind. VIT 0?, Confusion, Berserk, Slow, Stop, and a bunch of other crap come at high crisis. If she's really beat up, Bad Breath can also inflict ID.
6. White Wind: Heals damage equal to the difference of Quistis' current and max HP.
7. Homing Laser: 3299 (~7000)
8. Mighty Guard: Shell + Protect. Regen, Float, Haste, and Aura? at higher Crisis.
9. Shockwave Pulsar: 6845 (~11800)

Rinoa
STR: 78 (95)

Physical: 815

Limits
By teaching Angelo only Invincible Moon and Wishing Star, this gives a higher chance for Invincible Moon or Wishing Star. EDIT: This is false, not knowing a limit results in a weaker limit being used.
---
Angelo Cannon: 2938
Angelo Strike: 4897
Invincible Moon: Invincible for 3 Turns
Wishing Star: 6191*8 = 49529

Counters: Rinoa has a 1/16 chance to use each of these after being hit by an enemy. Angelo Recover is checked first for the very tiny difference this makes.
Angelo Recover: Heals 62.5% max HP, self
Angelo Rush: 1378

Selphie
---
STR: 57 (70)
255% Hit Rate

Selphie's Physical: 465

Slots: This allows Selphie to cast a large repertoire of spells 1-3 times. She has lots to choose from, but obviously, the better damage spells like Ultima and The End are rare. Useful stuff like Full-Life and the statuses are pretty common.

Ultima: ~2500
Flare: ~1200
Holy: ~1200
Meteor: 3300, Hits 10 times for ~330. Higher magic defense will null this damage.
Drain: Takes ~500 HP away from an enemy.
Element-Aga- ~700
Aura: Gets Limits easier.
Full-Life: Full Healing + Status healing.
The End: Dead.

Dispel, Haste, Protect, Shell.

Statuses:
Death, Berserk, Blind, Zombie, Sleep, Pain (Silence and Poison), Stop (rare), Silence, Meltdown (0 VIT)

Irvine
STR: 57 (70)

I tested on a different enemy (screwy disk), so this may not be totally consistent with the rest of the cast.

Physical: 490

Normal Shot: 400x6 = 2400 (sometimes 5 shots)
Dark Shot: 345*6 = 2070. Causes Blind, Silence, Poison, and Silence.
Fire Shot: 960*4 = 3840
Demolition: 1500*3 = 4500
Quick Shot: 170*15 = 2550
Armor Shot: 1960*3 = 5880
Pulse Shot: 3000*4 = 12000

At high crisis, the time Irvine gets for Shot is almost tripled.
Normal Shot: 400*17 = 6800
Flame: 960*11 = 10560
Demolition: 1500*7 = 10500
Quick Shot: 46*165 = 7820
Armor Shot: 1960*7 = 13720
Pulse Shot: 3000*7 = 21000

Temporary Characters
---
Seifer
STR: 60 (77)
Hyperion: +17 (scaled)
255% Hit Rate

Seifer's Physical: 580 (870)

No Mercy: 2320

Seifer seemed to get Limits 40% of the time when he was near full health. Naturally, this is higher when he is at lower health.

Edea
STR: 61
No Weapon

Physical: 373

Limit: Sorcery
---
Ice Strike: 5106

TEH LAGUNA TRIO!!1
Average weapons are probably a little too high for them (hell, it's higher than some other ultimates), but I'm willing to cut Laguna and friends a little slack somehow.

Ward
STR: 72

Physical: 500

Limit
---
Massive Anchor: 3970

Laguna
STR: 62

Physical: 380

Limit
---
Desperado: 2740

Man With the Machine-Gun: 20*9999 = 199980
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOGMOGMGOMGOMGOGM!

*gets shot*

Kiros
STR: 56

Physical: 317

Limit
---
Blood Pain: 2378

[Shale]

PC Seifer notes. Taken at level 10.

HP:

Seifer: 812
Squall: 616
Zell: 627
Quistis: 605~

Speed:

Squall: 21
Zell: 21
Quistis: 21
Seifer: 18

(Basically, speed tiebreaks)

Vit:

Seifer: 8
Squall: 8
Zell: 7
Quistis: 6

Spr:

Seifer: 10
Squall: 7
Quistis: 7
Zell: 5


Damage:

Seifer: 93
Squall: 78
Zell: 60
Quistis: 58

No Mercy: 280

[Shale]

And now, bosses! from Dhyer.

I’ll in better defense info and PC damages later.
Half Junctioned is the HP number if I had half the spells.
All Statuses are innately 100% accurate barring resistance. I personally factor some resistance into the hit rates.

Bosses seem to either be about 25% below or above your average PC level. I take the average as their DL form.

Big giant note: FF 8 speed is not linear. I believe that the speed system resembles FF 6, where there is a base number added onto the actual speed score, and that sum is linear. I believe that FF8's base number is between 20 and 30.

Edea 1
LVL 13/19
HP 4500/6700
Speed: About 21, About Average Defense, Good MDef
Status Immune
PC HP about 1520 (1180 Half Junctioned), 22.67 Speed

Thundara/Fira/Blizzara- 385 (375/395)
Astral Punch- 35 (25/45) (Fear)
Dispel


Raijin 2
Lvl 16/22
7600 (HP 6400/8800)
Speed: 13, Good Defense, Next to no Mdef.
Absorbs Lightning, Weak to Poison. 40% Blind, 80% Silence, 40% Sleep, 40% Slow, 60% Drain, 0% Gravity Resistance. Immune to all others statuses.
PC HP about 2150 (1680 Half Junctioned), Speed 22.33 (Yes, it goes down. Blame Selphie)

Attack- 300 (250/350)
Raijin Special- 670 (550/790)
Hi Potion- Heals 1000, at Low HP, OPB?


Fujin 1 (Only listing this for possible Raijin HP interp. She never wants this form. Its’ damage is pathetic and it can’t Sai until low HP).
LVL 16/22
5700 (4800/6600 HP)


Seifer 2
LVL 19/27
7900 HP (6700/9100 HP)
Speed: Around 51, Good Defense, Very Good Mdef
20% blind, 20% silence, 30% sleep, 0% poison, 0% gravity resistance. Immune to everything else. Weak to the Poison Element.
PC HP: 2789 (2000 Half Junctioned), Speed: 22.83

Attack- 330 (275/385)
Fira- 225 (200/250)
Demon Slice- 920 (750/1090)


Edea 2
LVL 19/27
11500 HP (9500/13500 HP)
Speed: Either 23 or 24, Average Defemse, Very Good Mdef
20% Blind, 20% Sleep, 10% Slow, 0% Drain, 0% Gravity Resistance. Immune to all other statuses.
PC HP: 2789 (2000 Half Junctioned), Speed: 22.83

Maelstorm- Halves current HP and adds Curse 100% (Seals Limits) (90-95%)
Death- 100% (Although I see it as 90-95% due to resistance)
Slow- Slows ATB Bar 100% (90-95%)
Silence- 100% (90-95%)
Reflect- Lasts about 10 of her turns
Dispel- Dispel Positive Statuses
Blizzaga- 500 (475/525)
Thundara/Fira- 312 (275/350)


Raijin 3 437/484
LVL 21/31
15400 (13400/17400 HP)
Speed: 34, Above Average Defense, Next to no Mdef.
Absorbs Thunder, Weak to Poison, 40% blind, 80% silence, 40% sleep, 40% slow, 60% drain, 0% gravity resistance. Immune to all other statuses.
PC HP: 3370 (2370 Half Junctioned), Speed: 43.5 (Slows are easy as hell to get). Note that this is a Half Junction.

Physical- 375 (280/470)
Aura- Doubles attack power, lasts about 2 turns on avg (I’ve seen it at between 1 and 3)
Raijin Special- 900 (700/1100)
Flame Punch- 780 (610/950)


Fujin 2 591/661
LVL 21/31
12800 HP (11300/14300 HP)
Speed: 36 or 37, Below Average Def, Very good MDef.
Absorbs Wind, Weak to Poison, 60% blind, 50% sleep, 60% slow, 30% drain, 0% gravity resistance. Immune to all other statuses.
PC HP: 3370 (2370 Half Junctioned), Speed: 43.5 (Slows are easy as hell to get). Note that this is a Half Junction.

Haste- Ups Speed. Likely 1.5x. Possibly 2x.
Meteor- 1500 (1300/1700)
Regen (Heals 5% at set interval)
Slow- Lowers Speed, 100% accuracy (I see it as 80%)
Pain- Inflicts Silence, Poison, and Blind 100% (80%)
Metsu- 360 (260/460)
Tornado- 350 (310/390)
Zan- 205 (160/250)
Sai- HP->1
Confuse- Inflicts Confuse 100% (80%)


Adel
LV 22/32
32,000 HP average
Speed: 47, Averagish Defense, Averagish Spirit.
Status Immune
PC HP: 3370 (2370 Half Junctioned), Speed: 43.5 (Slows are easy as hell to get). Note that this is a Half Junction.

Meteor- 2250/2600
Energy Bomber- 625/950 Physical
Ultima- 2100/2300
Flare- 600/730
Quake- 1300/1450
Holy- 675/800

Ultimecia
My personal average HP was about 7700.

Ulti 1
22000 HP, Slower than unjunctioned PCs (I want to say her speed is between 16-20).
Maelstorm- Halves HP and inflicts Curse 100%
Double- Allows for Doublecasting
Tornado- 670 Wind All
Quake-
Holy- 950 Holy
Fir/Thun/Blizzaga- 650 Fire/Thunder/Ice
Bio- 550 Poison Damage+ Poison 100% (10% off a turn)
Meltdown- 600 Magical Damage+Reduce Defenses
Dispel

Greiver
61700 HP
Physical- 500 Physical Damage
Draw Spell- Draw 1 random spell and cast it
Destroy Spell- Destroy one type of spell
Triple- Allows for Triplecasting
Flare- 950 Magical Damage
Doom- Inflicts Doom; Counts down from 24, and receives death at 0.
Pain- Inflicts Poison, Silence, and Darkness
Shockwave Pulsar- 6000 Magical Damage All; Has a Charge Time

UltiGriever Whole
87000 HP (together with Ultigreiver damaged)
GF Killer- Auto kills any GF
Summon Helix- Summons up to 2 Helix. Helixs counter attacks against themselves for 500 damage. They may charge up spell damage or may be needed for the crappiness that is GA
Flare- About 1000 Magical Damage
Holy- About 1000 Holy Damage
Dispel
Great Attractor- 1600 Physical Damage All; Has charge time

UltiGreiver Damaged
Physical- 500 Physical Damage
GF Killer
Tornado- About 1800 Wind Damage All
Quake- About 1950 Earth Damage All
Ultima- About 3000 Magical Damage All

Final Ultimecia
135400 HP (11000 HP for the lower half),
Physical- 500 Physical Damage
Hell's Judgement- HP->1 All
Destory Spell- Destroy one type of spell
GF Killer
Dispel
Flare- 600 Magical Damage
Holy- 600 Holy Damage
Apocalypse- 5200 Magical Damage All; must be drawn from her lower half, which becomes available at about 50% HP; May have an extra charge time.

[Shale]

Trips' Seifer 4 notes:

Seifer 4 notes:

This is taken against a party with an party of Squall(Level 52), Zell(Level 45), and Irvine(Level 40).

HP: 28,200
Level: 32

He used a simple slash attack, which hit an unjunctioned Squall for 700ish damage(44 vit), which would be a high 7HKO to Squall's 4,249 HP. He uses this 99% of the time. The only other attack I managed to get was a Firaga, which hit for about the same damage.

As for his durability, an attack from the Lionheart dealt about 1,800 to 2,000ish damage junctioned. A Renzokukan would probably be a 2HKO unjunctioned, and would off him with any decent spell junctioned to strength. Irvine, my weakest character, dealt about 700 damage with a basic physical.

The main thing about him is his speed, which is damned impressive. He managed to keep trading turns with an Auto-Hasted party, and was often double-turning people sans Haste. With a completely unjunctioned party this would definitely make him much more difficult to defeat.

I'm unsure whether or not we should let him have this form, as Gilgamesh showed up in 5 or 6 turns and automatically ended the battle. I think pretty much everybody can get Odin at this time without any trouble, and with those Triple's that Odin gives(add in the fact that you can just sit there and Draw while he does nothing and things become even more ominous for Seifer) he dies quite fast.

Ranking him on this form would probably give a nice Middle. He's fast and can pile up the damage against slow or frail opponents, but anybody with a shred of durability and damage is more than enough to handle him. He has some magic versatility, I guess, which would allow him to exploit a Fire Weakness.

[PKNintendo]

Eh sorry to cause a ruckus, I've noticed that the FF8 characters are... really bad. (mostly light cept for a middle and a heavy)

Why is Squall a heavy over Irvine and Zell? They do massive damage with their limits. That could be useful in DL... right? Sure he has a CHANCE at lionheart (how do you guys take that into account? Is it automatic?)

Assuming Irvine has pulse ammo, he can do a massive amount of damage as well. And Zell, ignoring the MASSIVE exploit involving Duel, he does some good damage.

Rinoa stats own, and invincible moon and Wishing star rock. (again, how do you deal with chance?)

Also, can't Quistis, you know Degenerate everything on site?

[Meeplelard]

Squall has 255% Accuracy (thus never misses) and 100% Crit Rate (thus does more damage.)  Generally, a Limit tends to yield a win for an FF8 PC, but the issue is that getting said Limit has issues, considering its a specific threshold and if you can avoid it, the FF8 PC is beat.

Rinoa's invincibility is generally a nonfactor cause its completely random and too small a chance to kick in.  Quistis' Degenerator is just typical instant Death; it fails on bosses, and Shockwave Pulsar isn't that special by Limit stands in terms of damage. 

In any event, Squall himself has issues, but they're not QUITE as bad as the rest of the cast, due to his Auto Crits and how he gets around evasion (Selphie gets around evasion too, but does much less damage.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just curious, but I didn't know that Squall got around evasion?

I'm guessing Selphie does this with Magic, but I honestly don't know the mechanism for this and the stat topic doesn't seem to list it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Both have evade-ignoring weapons.

[hinode]

255 accuracy means you always hit, no exceptions ever. This is true whether it comes from the weapon itself (every Gunblade, plus Selphie's ultimate) or you somehow manage to junction your hit stat up.

[Tide]

Why is Squall a heavy over Irvine and Zell?

I should further note that Squall was originally a Middle. He actually upgraded to get into Heavy (so its not like there were two tiers of difference originally). Most likely, he was originally ranked as a low Middle due to evade ignoring + auto critical. Irvine and Zell have always been light however since they have neither of those perks.

They do massive damage with their limits. That could be useful in DL... right? Sure he has a CHANCE at lionheart (how do you guys take that into account? Is it automatic?)

Meeple already touched upon this. Limits are indeed quite useful - IF the PC can get it. Generally speaking, PC limit threshold in FF8 requires a maximum of 33% of MHP (Seifer being the exception) for them to be used. This means anybody who can solidly 3HKO or higher, status with something crippling (like Sleep), have buffs/backlogged damage to boost their damage can easily get around it. Typically speaking, a competent dueller can get through it without much trouble. Since until they hit that limit range, they are just PCs with an attack that deals averagish damage, no thanks to FF8's stat curve being so miniscule.

As for Lionheart, it will probably never come up to be important. Especially now that he is in heavy. It's a 25% chance, if you assume all finishers as equal chance, which means that 75% of the time, he will trigger a non-Lionheart finisher. I seriously doubt anything can survive 4 Renzokukens or let Squall get off 4 Renzokukens, so it's more or less a non issue.

Also, can't Quistis, you know Degenerate everything on site?

If a PC lets her get it, sure. Bosses though in FF8 are typically immune. Only Oilboyles can be Degenerated and even then, they appear as random monsters later on.

[Yoshiken]

On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.

Also, wondering what the method of dealing with "The End" is. I mean, if everyone allowed it instantly, Selphie would beat anything that wasn't undead, but I'm guessing people allow it in some form. Some figures on odds of spells appearing would be good~

[DjinnAndTonic]

On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.

Also, wondering what the method of dealing with "The End" is. I mean, if everyone allowed it instantly, Selphie would beat anything that wasn't undead, but I'm guessing people allow it in some form. Some figures on odds of spells appearing would be good~

I allow Selphie to use it if her opponent is extremely slow...

So... uh... she gets against Cyan if he tries to charge up for QuadraSlice. Anything faster than that and I'm wary.

[Talaysen]

On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.

Eh, I'd just make it check against FULL status immunity (including ID if the game has that).  If you immune EVERYTHING, you immune Degenerator.  If you miss ANYTHING well too bad.

I mean, saying it works on only PCs is kind of silly because you have no proof that it even DOES work on PCs in-game.  You just know it doesn't work on bosses, but works on all random enemies.  Maybe it just works on random enemies and that's it?

I allow Selphie to use it if her opponent is extremely slow...

So... uh... she gets against Cyan if he tries to charge up for QuadraSlice. Anything faster than that and I'm wary.

Still only works if Cyan actually does this when Selphie's at low HP.  You should hype it against AUGST instead.

[Cmdr_King]

For purposes of simplicity I tend to assume Selphie goes for Fullcure in the DL.  It's a rigged effect, taking some of the head-trauma out of her matches, but not obscenely rare like Rapture/The End (at endgame, it actually tends to be more common than any other given outcome, is my experience).  Though certainly against the likes of Mint or Augst she can stall for The End if she wants (not that she NEEDS to, Fullcure beats them fine.)

On the note of Squall > Cast, the other thing to keep in mind is that Lionheart is a full upgrade better than everyone else's best weapons (+31 strength vs +24 or so, as I recall), so he... should has an edge even without auto-crit.  Not a huge one but... base strength is such a minute spread outside Rinoa that it's enough.

[PKNintendo]

On the topic of Degenerator, I'll point out that it isn't just typical ID. It works on enemies that are otherwise completely death-immune, so I'd be inclined to say that it works on any non-boss characters, regardless of death immunity.

Eh, I'd just make it check against FULL status immunity (including ID if the game has that).  If you immune EVERYTHING, you immune Degenerator.  If you miss ANYTHING well too bad.

I mean, saying it works on only PCs is kind of silly because you have no proof that it even DOES work on PCs in-game.  You just know it doesn't work on bosses, but works on all random enemies.  Maybe it just works on random enemies and that's it?

I allow Selphie to use it if her opponent is extremely slow...

So... uh... she gets against Cyan if he tries to charge up for QuadraSlice. Anything faster than that and I'm wary.

Still only works if Cyan actually does this when Selphie's at low HP.  You should hype it against AUGST instead.

Umm, Degenarator DOES work on PC's!!!
(From some enemies)

[Clear Tranquil]

PC stands for player/party controlled character. So unless Degenerator worked on Seifer and Edea when fighting them (who are sometimes player controlled/in the party) we don't really have a basis for this. Perhaps you're thinking of something else?

[PKNintendo]

It doesn't work on them normally, but it does while they're in your party?

Well I tried. I suppose all of the insta kill moves, break and the like are banned anyway...

[hinode]

For purposes of simplicity I tend to assume Selphie goes for Fullcure in the DL.  It's a rigged effect, taking some of the head-trauma out of her matches, but not obscenely rare like Rapture/The End (at endgame, it actually tends to be more common than any other given outcome, is my experience).  Though certainly against the likes of Mint or Augst she can stall for The End if she wants (not that she NEEDS to, Fullcure beats them fine.)

On the note of Squall > Cast, the other thing to keep in mind is that Lionheart is a full upgrade better than everyone else's best weapons (+31 strength vs +24 or so, as I recall), so he... should has an edge even without auto-crit.  Not a huge one but... base strength is such a minute spread outside Rinoa that it's enough.

FF8 Strength has a quadratic effect on damage, so that extra power is pretty significant. Everyone besides Squall and Rinoa 4HKOs at best in the DL, which along with limits being difficult to access is what makes them so bad in the DL.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Degenerator is no different than, say, Phantasy Star 4's Negatis. It's instant death. It makes a different check than the normal instant death spell (Death in FF8's case, Vol/Diem/Eliminate in PS4's), but it's still clearly making a check, and I'm inclined to see ID immunity from games with only one type of ID cover it. Does mean it hits Demi/Wren though (not that either can't blow past it).

It's moot since Shockwave Pulsar overkills things anyway. All the non-Selphie permanent FF8 PCs pretty much win instantly if they do get a limit in the majority of circumstances (unless you see their non-limit damage as beyond atrocious). And even Selphie probably wins near-instantly against most Lights either via one of the power spells (multiple Meteor/Ultimas are sick) or a Full-Cure loop. Basically, you beat FF8 by not giving them limits (which unfortunately for FF8 is easy).

[Tide]

I mean, saying it works on only PCs is kind of silly because you have no proof that it even DOES work on PCs in-game.  You just know it doesn't work on bosses, but works on all random enemies.  Maybe it just works on random enemies and that's it?

IIRC Degenerator is basically Remove/Eject but gives EXP. Tonberries are immune to Degen (pretty sure on this). Flip side, in the Laguna arcs, Gespers can use Degen and they hit through ID immunity fine (100 Deaths doesn't stop it), so there is proof that it his PCs (who are death immune to boot). Point of the matter is (and what I was getting at), most bosses are immune to eject in FF8 outside of Oilboyles, who are later random enemies. So trying to argue that Degen > bosses is a pretty bad argument.

Not that Quistis needs Degen (see NEB). Shockwave Pulsar dealt like what? 7k damage+? Considering the average damage curve is like 600 or something, that's more than enough >_>.

EDIT NOTES:
Some other mechanical notes that I thought I would correct...
- Squall's Lionheart limit break actually deals 17 hits, not 18. Still doesn't matter. Each hit is 4.5x a regular physical (no crit), so it is still massive overkill.
- Seifer can actually access his limit break at 90% MHP if he is alone instead of 40%.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Out of curiosity, I did some stat topic math to see what the FF8 characters could do if they were allowed to start with reduced HP in limit range (at 33%).

Most of them become much, much better, despite being glass cannons.

Average for reliable first-turn damage:

Most Reliable First-Turn Damage      
21860   Squall    Renzokuken (+ avg finisher)
13461.25   Rinoa   Angelo Limits (avg)
12960   Zell   Booya/Heel Drop loop (12x)
12000   Irvine   Pulse Shot*4
9900   Selphie   Triple Meteor
6845   Quistis   Shockwave Pulsar
4860   Squall    Renzokuken (no finisher)
2938   Rinoa   Angelo Cannon
1200   Selphie   Flare
6800.5   Average   

Average Damage of Best First-Turn Possible Outcomes (Squall, Rinoa, Selphie using their alternate values)      
12837.7   Average   


So Rinoa ends up being amazing as her first-turn limits are a choice between 3 turns of invincibility or massive overkill damage. Thanks to Angelo Cannon's higher chance of activating instead of her decent Limits, she's not as awesome as advertised. Still, a 50% chance to win any match is a decent Heavy.
Squall's damage drops notably as apart from his 25% chance for Lionheart, he does around 6000 damage per turn and is still made of glass.
Zell and Irvine pick up 2HKO damage for all the good it does them.
Selphie, Quistis, and Irvine become glass-status-whores, with Irvine having notably fewer options.
Against the status-immune, Selphie and Quistis have some buffing options.
Also, Selphie has the interesting strategy of Aura + FullHeal to become the only FF8 character able to use her limit while not in OHKO range. Still probably Light, though a good one.

Squall hates this. Rinoa becomes Godlike Heavy. Quistis and Irvine become Middles. Selphie is more interesting. And Zell... becomes a different flavor of Light.

None of the Temps want this at all.

Note that I don't see it this way personally, but was just curious about the results.

Also, Irvine's Status options appear to have Silence listed twice. Was there supposed to be a different status listed in place of that second Silence?