Final Fantasy 7 (Full)

[Meeplelard]

NOTE: This topic is editted a bit from the original; mostly, end game stats are now listed first, and I had to adjust things around a bit otherwise, etc.

Stats Taken at level 61. Why that and not 60 or 65? Cloud was already level 61 (I was hoping he wasn't that high) at beginning of Disc 3, so...I kind of had to get to AT LEAST him. That, and I didn't feel like getting 4 unnecessary levels.

Damage Tested on Unknown 3s in the Gelinka. Note that for Yuffie's Conformer, I estimated due to them being 51 and her being 61, she got an unfair Damage Penalty against them.

Also, I tested Limit Damage. mind, take EVERYTHING with a Grain of Salt. FF7 has semi random stat growth, and I believe that some of my characters (Cid for example) had good growth this game, while others were just bit in the ass horribly (Tifa, shown by her averagish stength (instead of 2nd best) -_-)

HP: Lose this, you die
MP: Useful for only Cloud (Magic), Cait Sith (Magic), Red XIII (Magic and his weapon), and Cid (Weapon) only.
Strength: Basic Physical damage. (This + weapon's Attack) * Multiplier = How much RELATIVE damage you do (there's other algorithms involved, obviously, but this should still give you an idea of who does more than others), do NOT take that equation literally!
Dexterity: FF7's name for speed
Vitality: Base Defense, this + Armors Defense = Total Defense
Magic: useful for Cloud and Red XIII literally, but listing anyway (for those curious about in game), basically, how much magic damage you do (given Cloud and Red XIII are the only ones with Attack Magic Materia...)
Spirit: Raw Magic Defense. Due to a bug in the game, Armor Magic Defense does jack shit, and Magic Defense is totally based off this stat (Mind, Weapon boosts still work, since they raise the Spirit stat itself)
Luck: Critical hit Rate. Since this stat is effectivly equal for all characters, it doesn't matter much

What Materia allowed? ONly Materia characters start with. I don't believe in plot given things in this case, especially since FF7 has A LOT of grey areas (and those who allow Destruct need to be shot. Sephiroth doesn't even give it to him, its just his way insulting Cloud in style, if you watch the scene)

Limits, unless said otherwise, CAN Miss, despite popular belief, attack ones anyway. Anything Multi Hit will spread hits around randomly, though, this only matters for Team fights (in a duel, enemy feels the full brunt of the attack)

Anyway, here are the stats.

Cloud:
HP: 5083
MP: 563
Strength: 86
Dexterity: 50
Vitality: 77
Magic: 85
Spirit: 80
Luck: 26

Materia Stat Changes:
Lightning: Strength -1, Magic +1, Max HP -2%, Max MP+2%
Ice: Strength -1, Magic +1, Max HP -2%, Max MP +2%

Equipment Options:
*Ultima Weapon: 100 Attack, 110% Accuracy, +51 Magic, +35 Spirit, does Damage based off Cloud's Current HP compared to his Max HP. 3x Damage when HP is max

Alternative Armors:
Wizard Bracelet: 6 defense, 3% evade, 3% Magic evade, +20 Magic
Edincoat: 50 Defense, +5 Magic

Attacks:
Physical Base: 2000
Physical at Max HP w/ Ultima Weapon: 6000
Physical at 50% HP: 3000
Physical at 10% HP: 600
Bolt 3: 3400 (3700) Lightning Elemental damage, Magical, 52 MP
Ice 3: 3400 (3700) Ice elemental damage, Magical, 52 MP

Limits:
Braver: 6000
Cross Slash: 6333, causes Paralysis
Blade Beam: 6250
Climhazzard: 8000
Meteorain: 3300 x 6 (19800)
Finish Touch: 6333, causes Instant Death
Omnislash: 3000 x 15 (45000)

Barret:
HP: 5758
MP: 499
Strength: 80
Dexterity: 44
Vitality: 86
Magic: 71
Spirit: 72
Luck: 24

Equipment Options:
*Max Ray: 97 Attack, 98% accuracy, +32 Magic, Long Range

Note: Yes, I'm aware the Missing Score exists, but due to the rules of the DL, it flat out sucks.  Its only 1 attack higher than the Max Ray anyway, so it doesn't give Barret much of a damage boost for hits Limits either, so there's no real reason why he should use the Missing Score in the DL.

Abilities:
Physical base: 1900
Physical with Missing Score: 120 (!!!!!)
Physical w/ Max Ray: 1900

Limits:
Big Shot: 5700
Mindblow: Lowers Target's MP to 0
Grenade Bomb: 5700
Hammer Blow: Instant Death, 100% success rate
Satelite Beam: 7600
Ungarmax: 850 x 16 (17100)
Catastrophe: 2150 x 10 (21500)


Tifa:
HP: 4969
MP: 524
Strength: 75
Dexterity: 60
Vitality: 70
Magic: 73
Spirit: 76
Luck: 26

Equipment Options:
God Hand: 86 Attack, 255% Accuracy, +34 Magic, +2% Critical hit rate
Premium Heart: 99 Attack, 112% Accuracy, +32 Magic, damage based off Limit Gauge, Multiplier is Limit Level * % Filled up.
NOTE: For what's better between God Hand and Premium Heart, well, Level 1 God Hand is clearly better (she needs full Limit Gauge to do 1x damage -_-), Level 2 probably doesn't matter much, Level 3 and Level 4 (the latter she should NEVER use though) Premium Heart is probably better.

Alternative Armor:
Minerva Band: 60 Defense, 8% evade, Nulls Fire, Ice, Gravity, and Holy

Abilities:
Physical Base: 1850
Physical w/ Premium Heart, Level 1 Limit Gauge Filled: 1850
Physical w/ Premium Heart, Level 2 Limit Gauge Filled: 3700
Physical w/ Premium Heart, Level 3 Limit Gauge Filled: 5550
Physical w/ Premium Heart, Level 4 Limit Gauge Filled: 7400
Physical w/ God Hand: 1500

Limits:
Note: First number is with Premium Heart, 2nd is with God Hand. Also, damage is listed as Hit/Yeah.

Limits:
Beat Rush: 2075/4150 (1687/3375)
Somersault: 2300/4600 (1875/3750)
Waterkick: 2550/5100 (2062/4125)
Meteodrive: 2775/5550 (2200/4400)
Dolphin Blow: 3000/6000 (2387/4775)
Meteor Strike: 3275/6500 (2575/5150)
Final Heaven: 3450/6900 (2762/5525)

As for total Limit Damage…
Level 1: 4375/8750 (3562/7125)
Level 2: 9700/19400 (7825/15650)
Level 3: 15950/31900 (12787/25575)
Level 4: 19200/38400 (15500/31100)

Red XIII:
HP: 5295
MP: 540
Strength: 78
Dexterity: 62
Vitality: 72
Magic: 73
Spirit: 74
Luck: 25

Materia Stat Changes:
Fire: Strength -1, Magic +1, Max HP -2%, Max MP +2%
Sense: None
All: None

Equipment Options:
*Limited Moon: 93 Attack, 114% Accuracy, +31 Magic, Does damage based off MP %, 2x at max MP
Spring Gun Clip: 87 Attack, 100% Accuracy, +55 Magic
Behemoth's Horn: 91 Attack, 75% Accuracy, +26 Magic, +35 Vitality, +18 Spirit

Alternative Armors:
Wizard Bracelet: 6 defense, 3% evade, 3% Magic evade, +20 Magic
Edincoat: 50 Defense, +5 Magic

Abilities:
Physical Base: 1700
Physical w/ Limited Moon: 5100
Physical w/ Behemoth's Horn: 1700
Physical w/ Spring Gun Clip: 1600
Fire 3 (Limited Moon): 2900 (3200), Fire Elemental, 52 MP
Fire 3 (Spring Gun Clip): 3300 (3550), Fire Elemental, 52 MP
Fire 3 (Behemoth's Horn): 2750 (3100), Fire elemental, 52 MP

Limits:
Sled Fang: 5100
Lunatic High: Adds Haste status, boosts Accurracy and Evade
Blood Fang: 2125, Heals 100 HP and MP (NOT a drain)
Stardustt Ray: 1125 x 10 (11250)
Howling Moon: Adds Beserk and Haste status, and raises Damage by 1.5x. The Beserk CAN be guarded against, and DOES compound with the damage boost (making it a 2.25x damage increase) After this, Red XIII hits the damage limit (9999) assuming he has the Limited Moon Equipped, and does about 7500 if not beserked.
Earth Rave: 3250 x 5 (16250)
Cosmo Memory: 9999 (!!!1!111!!)


Yuffie:
HP: 4726
MP: 530
Strength: 73
Dexterity: 60
Vitality: 66
Magic: 74
Spirit: 74
Luck: 28

Materia Stat Changes:
Throw: Vitality +1

Equipment Options:
*Conformer: 96 Attack, 112% Accuracy, +42 Magic, does damage based off enemies level compared to Yuffie's, roughly 3x when enemies Level = Hers, Long Range
Magic Shuriken: 64 Attack, 113% Accuracy, +10 Dex

Alternative Armors:
Minerva Band: 60 Defense, 8% evade, Nulls Fire, Ice, Gravity, and Holy

Abilities:
Physical: 1750
Physical w/ Conformer: 6000
Physical w/ Magic Shuriken: 1200
Throw Crystal Sword: 4500
Coin: Does damage = Coins Thrown/10


Limits:
Greased Lightning: 5468
Clear Tranquil: Heal 50% HP
Landscaper: 5250
Blood Fest: 1050 x 10 (10500)
Gauntlet: 7825
Doom of the Living: 1050 x 15 (15750)
All Creation: 9999 (!!!)

Cait Sith:
HP: 5705
MP: 545
Strength: 65
Dexterity: 48
Vitality: 64
Magic: 76
Spirit: 77
Luck: 27

Materia Stat Changes:
Transform: Strength -1, Magic +1, Max HP -5%, Max MP +5%
Manipulate: Nothing

Equipment Options:
*HP Shout: 95 Attack, 110% Accuracy, +42 Magic, does damage based off HP (3x at Max HP)
Starlight Phone: 88 attack, 102% Accuracy, +31 Magic, +30 Vitality

Abilities:
Physical Base: 1500
Physical w/ HP Shout at Max HP: 4500
Physical w/ HP Shout at Half HP: 2250
Physical w/ HP Shout at 10% HP: 450
Physical w/ Starlight Phone: 1400
Mini: Adds Mini status. Under this status, all physical damage is reduced to 1, 80% hit rate, 10 MP
Toad: Adds Toad Status. Under this status, damage is greatly reduced, and the afflicted can't use any special abilities outside of the Toad spell, Fight, or Item, 90% hit rate, 14 MP
Manipulate: Cait Sith gains control of users Actions. Status lasts until rthe afflicted is hit physically.
Note: Like FF6 Control, in game, it doesn't work on PCs (Proof? Cast Confuse on the person using Manipulate before they use it, they'll target a PC) I personally discount it, but others might disagree.

Limits:
Dice: Does damage = Dice Sum * 200. Amount of dice rolled = Level/10, rounded down
Slots: Does different effects based on Slots. Here's what's each one does:
Failure -> Toy Box: Random attack, which ranges from 2500 to 7500 in damage. Damage done is based on the animation (a Stone falling is about 2500 damage, Comet 2 animation is 7500, House is about 5500, Hammer is 4000, and Stalactites are about 3300)
3 Stars -> Mog Dance: Full HP and MP recovery (haven't checked if it heals status or not)
3 Moogles -> Transform: Raises Cait Sith's HP and MP to Max, and doubles physical damage, fully heals both as well
3 Bars -> Random Summon: Summons a Random Monster, anything from Choco/mog to KoTR. Will get Exact Damage values for each summon later
3 Crowns -> Toy Soldier: 7000 damage
Cait Sith Face -> Death Joker (version 1): Instant Death, Ignores Immunities
Cait Sith Face + Bar -> Death Joker (version 2): Instant Death to self, Ignores immunities
3 Hearts -> Lady Luck: Increases Accurracy

Note: About which slots are common and which ones aren't...well, like Setzer's slots, the game has some rigging involved in it (like the bar will spin a bit longer for some things and such) anyway, here's what I see odds for each coming up (assuming that's what he's trying for)
Toy Box: 100%
Mog Dance: 90%
Transform: 50%
Random Summon: 50%
Toy Soldier: 90%
Lady Luck: 70%
Death Joker (both versions): 5% )


Vincent:
HP: 4595
MP: 537
Strength: 63
Dexterity: 48
Vitality: 65
Magic: 78
Spirit: 76
Luck: 27

Equipment Options:
*Super Shot ST: 97 Attack, 120% Accuracy, +52 Magic
Death Penalty: 99 Attack, 115% Accuracy, +32 Magic, does damage based off how many enemies Vincent himself delivered the deathblow to. Value used in this topic is equal to at least how many kills Vincent needs to reach a level 3 Limit, so it might be a bit low, though the value shouldn't reach much higher than 1.5x.
Long Barrel: 66 Attack, 255% Accuracy, +14 Magic

Abilities:
Physical Base: 1500
Physical w/ Death Penalty: 950
Physical w/ Super Shot ST: 1500
Physical w/ Long Barrel R: 1200

Limits:
NOTE: Vincent's Limits transform into a beast. They all Fully heal him to his NEW HP value, and he gets a turn instantly after Transforming, similar to Terra's Morph. However, he is beserked the entire fight. Mind, given the DL setting, that's not a bad thing, persay (as if he had many options to begin with)
NOTE2: Don't have exact damage values for Vincent just yet outside of Galian Beast, I plan on remedying that soon enough though. Also, note that the physical (first attack) is common, and the magic (2nd attack) is rare, about a 3:1 ratio of either being used.

All of Vincent's Limit fully heal him, and he gets a turn instantly after he transforms (ala Terra, Yuri, or LoD Dragoons) Note that they do NOT recover from status.

Galiant Beast:
130% HP Increase, 150% Speed, +20% Evade
Beserk Dance: 2250
Beast Flare: 2900, Fire Elemental

Death Gigas:
200% HP increase, 80% Speed, 150% Def, 30% Magic Def
Gigadunk: 3750
Live Wire: 3750, Lightning Elemental

Hellmasker:
150% Def, +50% Evade
Splatter Combo: 750 * 5 (3750)
Nightmare: Inflicts Poison, Frog, Sleep, Dark, and Silence on the foe, 100% hit rate

Chaos:
200% Def, 200% Magic Def
Chaos Sabre: 3375
Satan Slam: Instant Death, 100% hit rate, 4500 damage if enemy is immune

Cid:
HP: 5151
MP: 505
Strength: 75
Dexterity: 50
Vitality: 78
Magic: 68
Spirit: 75
Luck: 23

Equipment Options:
*Venus Gospel: 97 attack, 103% accuracy, +42 Magic, Damage based off MP, at full MP does 2x damage

Attacks:
Physical Base: 1800
Physical w/ Venus Gospel Max MP: 5400

Limits:
Boost Jump: 5400
Dynamite: 3700
Hyper Jump: 5400, supposedly random chance of causing Instant Death
Dragon: 2250, recovers 100 HP and MP
Dragon Dive: 2775 x6 (16650), random chance of Instant Death
Big Brawl: 2165 x 8 (17140)
Highwind: 1250 x 18 (22500)


Stat Comparisons!

Note: With the exceptions of HP and MP, I'm leaving off Materia set ups, only cause its boring, clutters this up, and the stat boosts are negligible. Apply them if you want too

HP:
1. Barret 5758
2. Cait Sith 5705
(Cait Sith with Transform Materia 5419)
3. Red XIII 5295
(Red XIII with Fire Materia 5183)
4. Cid 5151
5. Cloud 5083
(Cloud with One Materia 4981)
6. Tifa 4969
(Cloud with 2 Materia 4881)
7. Yuffie 4726
8. Vincent 4595
Average: 5160

MP (for no reason whatsoever):
(Cloud with two Materia 585)
(Cloud with one Materia 574)
(Cait Sith with Transform Materia 572)
1. Cloud 563
(Red XIII with Fire Materia 550)
2. Cait Sith 545
3. Red XIII 540
4. Vincent 537
5. Yuffie 530
6. Tifa 524
7. Cid 505
8. Barret 499
Average: 530

Dexterity:
(Yuffie with Magic Shuriken 70)
1. Red XIII 62
2t. Tifa 60
2t. Yuffie 60
4t. Cloud 50
4t. Cid 50
6t. Cait Sith 48
6t. Vincent 48
8. Barret 44
Average: 52.75

Vitality:
Note: For relative defense, add 70 to these values for everyone. Note that the Wizard Bracelet has substantianally lower Defense, so take that into account for Red XIII and Cloud should they ever want to opt for that.
(Red XIII with Behemoth's Horn 105)
(Cait Sith with Starling Phone 94)
1. Barret 86
2. Cid 78
3. Cloud 77
4. Red XIII 72
5. Tifa 70
6. Yuffie 66
7. Vincent 65
8. Cait Sith 64
Average: 72

Spirit:
Note: I'm using Base Spirit only, and just listing characters with their equipment on as factors NOT in the average. So yeah
(Cloud w/ Ultima Weapon 115)
(Red XIII w/ Behemoth's Horn 92)
1. Cloud 80
2. Cait Sith 77
3t. Tifa 76
3t. Vincent 76
5. Cid 75
6t. Yuffie 74
6t. Red XIII 74
8. Barret 72
Average: 75

Relative Physical Durability:
Note: Lower = Better. 100% is average, meaning character has relative durability of an average. Assume Crystal Bangle for all characters (too lazy to do Minerva Band or Wizard Bracelet for those who have use of it)
(Cait Sith with Starlight Phone 85.1%)
1. Barret 86.2%
(Red XIII w/ Behemoth's Horn 88.7%)
2. Cait Sith 91.9%
3. Red XIII 97.5%
4. Cid 98.5%
5. Cloud 100%
6. Tifa 104.4%
7. Yuffie 111%
8. Vincent 114.4%

Relative Magic Durability:
In this case, since there's no factoring in average (its 100% regardless), I AM taking equipment boosts into account, so unless specified otherwise, assume default weapon (usually their Ultimate)
1. Cait Sith 90%
2. Barret 90.2%
3. Cloud 92.2%
(Red XIII w/ Behemoth's Horn 93.7%)
4. Red XIII 97.7%
5. Cid 100%
6. Tifa 103.6%
7. Yuffie 109.4%
8. Vincent 112%

Relative Speed:
Note: In this case, Higher = Better. 100% is still average, but now, its how much faster they are (instead of how much damage they take relative to an average PC), so someone with 120% means they double turn an average speed character on Turn 4 (meaning a 5/4 split)
FF7 Speed works, for PCs anyway, that Effective Speed is Dex+50.  So this value is (Character's Dex+50)/(Average+50)
(Yuffie w/ Magic Shuriken 117%)
1. Red XIII 109%
2t. Tifa 107%
2t. Yuffie 107%
4t. Cloud 97%
4t. Cid 97%
6t. Cait Sith 95%
6t. Vincent 95%
8. Barret 91%

Non Limit Damage:
1t. Cloud 6000
1t. Yuffie 6000
3. Cid 5400
4. Red XIII 5100
5. Cait Sith 4500
6. Barret 1900
7t. Tifa 1500
7t. Vincent 1500
Average: 3978

Note: Tifa is assumed to be using the God Hand, Barret the Max Ray and Vincent the Super Shot ST; this is cause the nature of their ultimate weapons makes them not viable in the DL.

Level 1 Limit Damage:
1. Tifa's Beat Rush+Somersault 7125
2. Cait Sith's Toy Soldier 7000
3. Cloud's Cross Slash 6333
4. Yuffie's Physical 6000
5. Barret's Big Shot 5700
6. Cid's Boost Jump 5400
7. Red XIII's Sled Fang 5100
8. Vincent's Galiant Beast Average 2445
Average: 5637

3-turn average assuming two non-limits and a L1: 4531 (kill point: 11328)

NOTE: Cait Sith is using his level 2 Limit using Toy Soldier (which is never rigged against you, IIRC), since despite being a higher level, it builds up faster than several level 1s.  Yuffie is assuming her physical since it does more damage (Conformer is weird enough to allow this, yes), and she probably prefers using Clear Tranquil on her level 1 anyway.  Vincent is assuming the average damage of Galian Beast. Tifa's using God Hand here cause Premium Heart is completely useless with a level 1 limit (damage boost she gets from level 1's is not enough to offset the basic physical.)

Not getting anything above Level 1 Limits since that starts getting into arguments regarding Limit Break efficiency and all that, especially since higher level limits are near impossible to get in the DL.

Oh, quick note:
The Minerva Band...this I know people are going to have different views on, but here's my reasoning for it being legal.
There are two in the game (one chest, one is stolen from Elena), and TECHNICALLY, 3 characters can use it (all three girls) That sounds Illegal, right? Well, considering you get both Minerva Bands on Disc 2/3 well after Aeris is gone, she NEVER has access to it, meaning that in game, it feels like those two were specifically meant for Yuffie and Tifa. Thus, its one of these "one character who can use it can never possibly have access to it legitly" situation, similar to the reasoning behind why I allow the FF4 Minerva for Rosa and Rydia, and not Porom (FF4a aside). Again, that's just my reasoning, feel free to disagree.

[Meeplelard]

And now for Aeris stats! I'm going to be simple here, and rather than posting everyone over again, I believe this will suffice!

She's taken at Level 37.  Why that? Cause that's the level she was right BEFORE Temple of Ancients, after some obvious grinding and such, figured its reasonable, etc. As a result, I'll compare her to average stats at level 37 as well!

Aeris:
2008 HP
332 MP
46 Strength
34 Dexterity
50 Vitality
64 Magic
61 Spirit
23 Luck

Equipment Options:
*Umbrella: 58 Attack, 112% Accuracy, Magic +10, Vitality +20, +5% Critical Hit Rate
Princess Guard: 52 Attack, 111% Accuracy, +22 Magic, +20 Spirit, +12 Vitality, damage increases for each ally dead (basically, damage = damage * (Allies Dead +1))

Limits:
Level 1s:
Healing Wind: Heals HP = 50% of targets HP, Multi Target
Seal Evil: Inflicts Stop and Silence on all enemies, 100% success rate

Level 2s:
Breath of Earth: Heals Status of Party (BEST. LIMIT. EVER!)
Fury Brand: Fills up Allies Limit Gauge at cost of her own (IN A DUEL!!!)

Level 3s:
Planet Protector: Gives Aeris Peerless Status
Pulse of Life: Full Healing + Resurrection to party

Level 4:
Great Gospel: Planet Protector + Pulse of Life, essentially

RELEVANT AVERAGES!
HP: 2180
MP: 290
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 37
Vitality: 54
Magic: 56
Spirit: 55
Luck: 23

For reference, in case you wanna scale Aeris to the time she joins, here's a general list of weapons available right when she leaves, at least attack wise (all that really matters here)  And yes, this factors in Wutai:

Cloud:
Nail Bat: 70 Attack
Murasame: 51 Attack
Yoshiyuki: 56 Attack

Barret:
Chain Saw: 52 Attack
Rocket Punch: 62 Attack

Tifa:
Work Glove: 68 Attack
Diamond Knuckle: 51 Attack

Red XIII:
Seraph Comb: 68 Attack

Yuffie:
Magic Shuriken: 64
Super Ball: 68
Razor Ring: 49

Cait Sith:
Blue M-Phone: 48
Trumpet Shell: 68

Vincent:
Shortbarrel: 51
Silver Rifle: 62

Cid:
Slash Lance: 56
Dragoon Lance: 66
Trident: 60

Translation of all this nonsense? Aeris' weapons are absolutely nothing special in terms of power.

And now for...
RANDOM TECHNICAL STUFF!
Original Post by Elfboy.

There's a new FAQ on GameFAQs for FF7 called the Party Mechanics FAQ. It's a pretty darn good BMG-style guide for FF7, and with it we can pretty much fill in all the details for the stat thread, I think.

First of all, limit gain rates. We all know these are gained at 50%, 100%, 150%, and 200% of max HP taken in damage, right? Right?

Wrong.

                   Level 1       Level 2       Level 3       Level 4


     Cloud           46.5%        107.6%        144.4%        168.0%


     Barret          42.8%         79.7%        124.2%        149.4%


     Tifa            39.8%        110.9%        169.0%        187.9%


     Aeris           66.4%         94.3%        106.9%        144.8%


     Red XIII        64.7%         99.6%        129.2%        161.4%


     Yuffie          66.4%         99.6%        132.8%        159.3%


     Cait Sith       53.1%         59.8%         ----          ----


     Vincent         67.1%         81.0%        105.9%        141.4%


     Cid             66.4%         93.0%        126.2%        159.3%



While 50/100/150/200 does work as a general approximation, those are the exact figures required, in-game, for each character to gain a limit.

Some notes:
Level 1's are generally gained slower than we thought, except Cloud/Barret/Tifa. In particular, the healing limits of Yuffie and Aeris are rather slow, coming around only at 2/3 damage taken. Ouch, depending on how you scale.

Level 2 through 4's are on average gained slightly faster than we thought. It's more noticeable with L3 and L4. What this means in the DL is up to you.

Tifa's limits are all somewhat sluggish except her really fast L1. Her L4 is faster than we thought, but still the slowest in the game. Note that for in-game utility though, her L4 is much better than was previously thought.

Cait Sith's Slots, a L2, is gained faster than many L1's, at 60%! This is very important, because Cait Sith has a full healing limit on Slots... and Slots is faster than Healing Wind/Clear Tranquil. Cait owns Aeris/Yuffie as a limit healer. HEH.

Vincent's L1 is gained slowly for a L1, but all his others are fast. Too bad Galian Beast is possibly his best anyway.

***

Personally, the old convention I used was that limits were gained at 37.5% + 25% * (actual gain rate) damage taken. I decided to see how things would look if I still used that. Note that this is just one way to see limits in the DL, feel free to ignore this as nothing more than my personal opinion.

Cloud    46%  64%  73%  79%


Barret   42%  57%  68%  74%


Tifa     39%  65%  79%  84%


Aeris    54%  61%  64%  73%


Red      53%  62%  69%  77%


Yuffie   54%  62%  70%  77%


Cait     50%  52%


Vincent  54%  57%  63%  72%


Cid      54%  60%  69%  77%



Do I still use this convention? Possibly, I haven't decided yet.

***

Next, actual limit multipliers! We'd only tested them before, and with FF7's damage variance it's hard to be certain. But now we know. Here's the new, updated data on every Limit breaks.

All limits have a 255% hit rate. This does not mean they always hit... it just means they need to face 60% evasion before they even have a chance to miss. However, perfect physical evasion will own them.

The exceptions are Vincent's "limit" attacks, which have a 120% hit rate for the physical moves, and 100% for the magical.

Remember that MT limits get their damage split (multiplied by 2/3) against multiple enemies.

Also, every defensive limit is MT, I'm often too lazy to type this.

Cloud
Braver: 3x
Cross-Slash: 3.25x, always causes paralysis
---
Blade Beam: 3.5x to the main target, 1x to others
Climhazzard: 4.375x
---
Meteorain: 6 hits, 1.625x = 9.75x
Finishing Touch: 3.25x MT, always causes ID
---
Omnislash: 15 hits, auto-crit, 0.75x = 22.5x

Barret
Big Shot: 3.25x
Mindblow: 100% MP damage, Gravity element
---
Grenade Bomb: 3.375x MT
Hammerblow: Always causes Death (not Eject, even if it looks it)
---
Satellite Beam: Auto-crit, 2.1875x = 4.375x MT
Ungarmax: 18 hits, 0.5x = 9x
---
Catastrophe: 10 hits, 1.25x = 12.5x

Tifa
All of Tifa's limits auto-critical on a Yeah!, this is already factored in.

Beat Rush: 2.5x
Somersault: 2.75x
Level 1 Total: 5.25x
---
Waterkick: 3x
Meteodrive: 3.25x
Level 2 Total: 11.5x
---
Dolphin Blow: 3.5x
Meteor Strike: 3.75x
Level 3 Total: 18.75x
---
Final Heaven: 5.25x
Level 4 Total: 24x

Aeris
Healing Wind: mHP/2 healing
Seal Evil: Always causes Silence and Stop
---
Breath of the Earth: Cures status
Fury Brand: All non-Aeris PCs get a full limit gauge
---
Planet Protector: Peerless
Pulse of Life: Full healing + resurrection
---
Great Gospel: Full healing + Peerless

Red XIII
Sled Fang: 3x
Lunatic High: Haste and 50% Evade
---
Blood Fang: 1.25x, heals attacker's HP/MP by target's max MP.
Stardust Ray: 10 hits, 0.625x = 6.25x
---
Howling Moon: Haste, Berserk, 160% power multiplier (240% after Berserk)
Earth Rave: 5 hits, 1.875x = 9.375x
---
Cosmo Memory: 7.8125x MT, doesn't break damage limit (FAILS AT LIFE)

Note: In-game, Lunatic High has the following special effect on Red: he gains 50% * (total number of targets for Lunatic High) evade. This basically means his evade will always be capped at 100%. Awesome.

Yuffie
Greased Lightning: 3.125x
Clear Tranquil: mHP/2 healing
---
Landscaper: 3x MT, Earth element
Bloodfest: 10 hits, 0.625x = 6.25x
---
Guantlet: Auto-crit, 1.75x = 3.5x MT
Doom of the Living: 15 hits, 0.625x = 9.375x
---
All Creation: 8x MT, doesn't break damage limit (FAILS AT LIFE)

Cait Sith
Dice: Fixed damage is (Sum of 6 dice) * (highest repeated number) * 100
---
Slots: Can access one of the following moves. The "accession rate" is the rate at which you will get the attack if you try for it and pull off the timing, i.e. the rate at which the slots aren't rigged against you. Note that if the slots aren't rigged against you, they are actually rigged FOR YOU, in this game, and rather strongly at that (the second and third wheels will traverse up to four spaces looking for a match!).

Toy Box: Random damage, average 3.5x, accession 100%
Toy Soldier: 5x MT, accession 100%
Mog Dance: Full healing, accession 100%
Transform: Fuses Cait Sith and party members. Fails when alone, accession 50%
Summon: Random summon spell is used, biased towards midgame summons, accession 50%
Lucky Girl: All attacks auto-critical, accession 25% (FAILS AT LIFE)
Death Joker: Kills Cait Sith and his party, ignores death immunity, accession 100%!!!
Game Over: Kills all enemies, ignores death immunity, accession 1/64

Note: You'll never get rigged into getting Death Joker, unlike other 100% accession slots. You can always get it, but you have to time it perfectly yourself. If you really want to for some reason.

Vincent

Vincent's limits all have a 70% chance to use a physical attack, 30% to use a magical. Note that magic damage uses its own formula, see Meep's damage tests for it

Galian Beast:
Vincent gets 130% max HP, 1.5x speed, and +20% evade
Berserk Dance: 1.5x physical
Beast Flare: 3.75x MT magical Fire
---
Death Gigas:
Vincent gets 200% max HP, 0.8x speed, +50% Def and -70% MDef
Gigadunk: 2.625x physical
Livewire: 4.375x MT magical Lightning
---
Hellmasker:
Vincent gets +50% Def and +50% evade
Splattercombo: 5 hits, 0.5x = 2.5x physical
Nightmare: Always inflicts Poison, Frog, Mini, Sleep, Silence, Confuse
---
Chaos:
Vincent gets +100% to both defences (worst bonus of any Morph!)
Chaos Sabre: 2.5x MT physical
Satan Slam: 5.625x MT magical, chance of ID (odds are probably below 50%)

Cid
Boost Jump: 3.25x
Dynamite: 2.25x MT
---
Hyper Jump: 3.5x MT, low chance of ID
Dragon: 1.25x, heals attacker's HP/MP by target's max MP.
---
Dragon Dive: 6 hits, 1.4375x = 8.625x, lowish chance of ID on each hit (but total odds on 6 hits should be very high)
Big Brawl: 8 hits, 1.25x = 9x
---
Highwind: 18 hits, 0.6875x = 12.375x

[Meeplelard]

Boss Mumbo Jumbo! Some of this stuff might a bit outdated, etc. so yeah, keep that in mind!

Also, remember that this was *BEFORE* the "Stat topic all boss!" phase, hence bosses gotten were only those who were ranked, or outright requested.

Reno 1:
HP: 1000 (fairly low, beaten by the two bosses before him, and only 200 more than Guard Scorpion)
Resists Lightning
Party's Average HP: 388

Attacks:
Pyramid: Encases person within a pyramid. Character in a pyramid is considered Dead, by the games PoV. Undone only by killing the Pyramid (if you can't break it in one hit, you suck)
Electro Mag Rod: 66 damage, Lighting Elemental (?)
"Special" Electro Mag Rod: 66 damage, paralyzes foe, Lightning elemental (?), used only when HP =< 250~
Physical: 53

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Above Average

Damages to him:
Cross Slash: 163
Big Shot: 143
Braver: 147
Beat Rush: 101
Cloud's Magic: 100
Barret's Magic: 85
Tifa's Physical: 40
Barret's Physical: 50
Cloud's Physical: 50

Comments: Well...if you allow Pyramid, he's a strict PC Killer. Without it...he really sucks. He has Grandia Boss level damage, and his Paralysis attack is low HP only (he can beat Lights with that, I guess) Low HP doesn't help either. So yeah, Pyramid LITERALLY makes or Breaks this form.

Rufus:
HP: 500
Party HP: 500

Defense: Below Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Above Average

Damage:
Shot Gun: 53 (mind, Cloud had a Four Slots on, so if anything, this number is HIGH)

Cloud's Magic: 105
Cloud's Attack: 95

Rufus: He has Speed! And nothing else. the fact That Cloud Solos him without breaking a sweat, even with the support of his dog proves this.

JENOVA-Birth:
HP: 4000, Immune to Poison (Bio always "Misses" her)
MP: 110
Party's Average HP: 610

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Sluggish

Attacks:
Physical: 170 (can be used 3x in a row)
W-laser: 170 (can be used 3x in a row) Physical damage (No clue what the difference between the 2 are)
Tail Laser: 110 damage, Multi Target, Physical, blockable (one character on occassion), can be used 2x in a row
Stop: Adds "Stop" status to enemy. High success (saw it fail once on Cloud and Aeris once)

Damages to her:
Cross Slash: 390
Big Shot: 370
Barret's Beta: 645 (I wouldn't determine durability based off this...)
Cloud's Shiva: 340
Aeris' Choco/Mog: 220
Aeris' Level 1s: 160
Aeris' Level 2s: 300~ (this is from Memory of an older fight, I rushed from a save to get there, so take this number with a grain of salt)
Cloud's Physical: 115
Aeris' Physical: 95
Barret's Physical: 110
Barret's Level 1s: 95
Barret's Matra Magic: 130
Cloud throwing Peace Maker: 370
Cloud Throwing Assault Gun: 220

Comments: Good Durability with having best HP by a good amount (Bottomswell, who is fought with minimal random encounters before, has only 2500), and her physical ST Damage is pretty impressive, shaving off most of an Average PC's HP in one shot. stop is a good status too. Mind, I'm missing one attack, only cause I saw it once, and she rarely uses it ever. A fairly solid boss in all regards...besides Speed, where she's slow. your PCs should occassionally double turn her every now and then. Solid heavy boss, I guess.

Reno 2 (Gongaga):
HP: 2000
MP: 80
Party's Average HP: 750

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Above Average

Damage:
Physical: 60
Turk Light: 240

Comments: Absolutly no durability whatsoever. Better damage than first form, but no Pyramid (if you allow it) Turk Light isn't bad, really, but...with that Durability, he's really sad. Well, ok, his physical makes him a contender in God Like *rolls eyes*

Rude 1 (Gongaga):
HP: 2000
MP: 135

Defense: Above Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Above average

Damage:
Physical: 160
Fire: 150
Cure 2: Supposedly he has this, haven't seen it though.

Comments: Well, he's worse than Reno in every way offensively, better defensively, but that says very little, he still dies extremely fast. Sad, really. Good thing he has later forms to work with.

Palmer:
HP: 6000 (Materia Keeper before him has 8400, Lost Numbers has 7000 before that)
Party Average HP: 1400~

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Tends to trade turns with my team, so Average
Vulnerable to Poison and Stop status

Abilities:
Mako Gun: 415~, randomly chooses between Fire, Ice, or Lightning Damage, magical
NOTE: Its possible there are just 3 different versions of Mako Gun, but its impossible to actually check outside of looking at the games actual code.
Taunt: Nothing, wastes a turn, and involves him showing him your back side.

Damage to him:
NOTE: Cait Sith and Aeris have high magic stats, so the magic damages might be a little high. Also note that Cloud is a good 5 levels above the other 2, so his damage is going to be inflated even further.
Cait Sith's Ifrit: 570
Cloud's Shiva/Ramuh: 690
Aeris' Odin: 1680 (OPB at this point. If you have 2 shots, you ARE power building)
Cait Sith's Level 2s: 430
Cloud's Level 2s: 480
Aeris' level 2s: 445
Cait Sith's Physical (silver M-Phone, weak weapon keep in mind): 125
Cloud's Physical (Rune Blade): 300
Aeris' Physical (Fairy Tale): 200

Comments: Well, his damage is not THAT bad, but still nothing that'll save his ass, especially since its elemental. That said, he's an improved Rufus, all things considered, which means he still sucks. He has good HP, maybe, but nothing special.

Lord Godo:
HP: 10000
Yuffie's HP: 1500

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Fast (occassionally double turned unhasted Yuffie, and she has (tied for) Game best Dex, AND the Magic Shuriken which boosts it further)
Can be hit with Poison and Gravity

Attacks are based off what Face he's using:
Yellow Face:
Cure 2: Heals 1300~ HP
Demi 3: Damage = 3/4s of CHP

White Face:
Mini: Inflicts Mini Status (all physicals do 1 damage), high success rate
Drain: Drains 180 HP and heals him for the same amount
Bio 2: 550 damage, inflicts Poison status

Red Face:
Beast Sword: 600 Damage, physical (Back Row, if its Physical, double this number)
Trine: 950 Magical Lightning elemental damage

Yuffie's Damage to him:
Physical (Magic Shuriken): 480
Bloodfest: 3000
Aqualung/Beta: 1500
Odin: 2000
Trine: 900
Level 2's: 550

Comments: Godo covers his basis' fairly well, with healing, strong damage, and some status to boot. HIs good Speed and High HP complement his skillset well too. Best Boss in the game, in terms of dueling, thus far, pity he's not in (and I don't suspect he'll get in anytime soon)

Jenova Life:
HP: 10,000 HP (fairly low, at this point. As you can see, equal to Godo's, whose potentially fought 2 "dungeons" before)
MP: 300 MP (also low, she can be run out in game w/out much difficulty)
Party's Average HP: 1750
Weak vs. Earth, Absorbs Water

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Average

Damage:
Blue Flame: 480, magical, water elemental, costs 20 MP
Blue Light: 400, magical, water elemental
Reflect: Reflects 4 spells, used as a counter to anything magical, though, only if she doesn't have the status, cost TBA (don't know offhand)
Aqualung: 1550, magical, water elemental, 34 MP

Note: She can triple cast, but only Blue Light and Blue Flame

Damage to Her:
Cloud's physical (Murasame): 480
Vincent's Comet: 1800
Cid's Odin: 1500
Cid's Boost Jump (Dragoon Lance): 1750
Vincent's Beserk Dance (Buntline): 680
Cloud's Climhazzard: 2100
Vincent's Beast Flare: 1200
Cloud's Bahamut: 2800 (O_o)
Cid's Kujata: 1900
Vincent's Level 3s: 1250
Cloud's Level 3s: 1150 (note that Vincent had More Magic Materia on, likewise, raising his Magic higher)


Comments: Jenova Life is quite different from Jenova Birth. Instead of having good durability, decent physicals it can use several times in a row (and a bad status move), Jenova Life is COMPLETELY magical, with rather low durability (you start getting some high level summons now) This is the form she wants if she wants Magic damage, or if the enemy is weak to water *waves hi to Dart and Rubicant* Granted, its got one obvious glaring flaw: Its damage is COMPLETELY water based. It has not one stroke of non elemental damage (IOWs, Meru destroys this form for free, unlike the Birth form, which could be trouble). Also, all her damage in this form is Magic based, making it clearly not the form to choose against the likes of Worker 8 or Solofia, though, this is the "duh" form ot use if she somehow finds herself fighting Kongol. Not a bad form, really, once you get past the suspect durability, probably not quite as good as her Birth form, but its a nice alternative option depending on Situations.

As a side note, this form in game is a total joke, thanks to the game outright hands you a Water Ring, persay, right before the fight, making it impossible to lose. Likewise, you could mock her more with Elemental + Leviathan on someone's Armor, which if its level 2 is another Water immune character.

Jenova DEATH:
25000 HP, absorbs Fire
TBA MP (didn't see the value)
Party AVerage HP: 2500

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Damn high
Speed: Below Average

Abilities:
Red Light: 700, magical, Fire elemental
Tropic Wind: 600, Magical, Fire elemental
Silence: Causes Silent Status, unknown hit rate (she only used it on Cloud who had a Ribbon -_-)

NOTE: She can double cast Red Light, and at HP < 8000, she can triple cast it, apparently.

Damage to her:
Yuffie's Bloodfest (magic Shuriken): 4800
Cloud's Bahamut: 3600
Cloud's Leviathan: 1550
Yuffie's Alexander: 2000
Yuffie's Comet: 1200
Tifa's Quake 3: 1300

Comments: Wow, Jenova Death is quite suprising. Sure, her Offense isn't much compared to the other 3, and she's completely fire elemental, an easily blocked element, but she has one thing going for her: She's quite a mage slayer. HEr durability is FAR better than that of her Life Form, and at least on par with her Birth form, and factor in the magic Defense, she's something a Mage doesn't want to fight, ESPECIALLY with Silence running around. This form is probably the most situational of the 3 forms, but still one with use. From what people are telling me about Jenova Synthesis (which I can't remmeber a damn thing about), it sounds like that's a lot more than what i can say for that form...

And it seems each form of Jenova covers a different area well. Jenova Birth covers physical damage, Jenova Life is Ball of Lightning Magic damage and has reflect as a nice option, Jenova Death has durability, Mage slaying, and is the form of choice when she needs magic but her opponent is immune/resists to Water. Who knows, MAYBE Jenova Synthesis might have a use...though doubtful <.<

NOTE: anything after Jenova Death take with a grain of salt. At this point, side quests open up, including things like Chocobos and such, and you start getting some really high level materia that messes with your HP (in a bad way), hence why the HP values don't seem to increase much when I post them. Note that you should at least have 5 different summons that can break 3000 damage at this point (Leviathan, Bahamut, Kujata, Neo Bahamut, and Alexander), as well as you get Contain Materia which is a nice boost in damage, and I think you can even get Tifa's Premium Heart this early to boot, for what its worth. So yeah, scale as you will, as from hence forth, scaling isn't quite as straight foward as it was before, that is also why I'm not posting damage values from characters.

Carry Armor:
HP: 24,000
MP: 200
Party's Average: 2500
NOTE: Average HP si hard to actually determine, since you get lots of high level Materia after Jenova Death (well, fine, just Phoenix, Ultima and Contain), so this is an estimate (my party had LESS than they did against Jenova death) Keep in mind, there aren't many battles between the two fights, so the HP shouldn't differ THAT much

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Slow
Weak vs. Lightning

Abilities:
Lapis Laser: 1600, Multi Target, Magical

Note: He comes with two arms, both 10,000 HP each, whose sole purpose is to grab one character. Grabbed Characters are considered dead. When he has his Arms, he can use a physical (not Lapis Laser though) that does about 300 damage.

Comments: Lapis Laser HURTS. And that's all he has. He's great at crowd control, but doesn't bring much to a duel, though I heard he could double up Lapis Laser, which would make him pretty scary actually. In game, he's really kind of reliant on his Arms for support. A bit disappointing, I must say.

Reno 3: (Gelinka)
HP: 15000
Party's Average HP: 2500

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Above Average

Abilities:
Neo Turk Light: Causes Confusion, 100% hit rate (haven't seen it miss yet)
Physical: 550

Comments: Sucks. Crap damage, one easily blocked status, low HP, and you JUST got the God Hand, Heaven's Cloud, Battle Trumpet (Weapon that, attack wise, is equal to the HP Shout, doesn't have the HP bonus though), Double Cut Materia, Conformer (!!!), as well as any Materia that involves Chocobo's too. Pretty sad, really, confusion is the only thing that makes him interesting, he doesn't even resist lightning either.

Rude 2: (Gelinka)
HP: 20000
Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Fast

Physical: 1600
Fire 2: 750
Cure 2: 1400 Healing, used at low HP only
Bolt 2: 750

Comments: Unlike his partner, he's not all that bad. Easily the better of the two, his damage is actually not half bad, and Fire 2 and Bolt 2, while nothing really all that good, are there for some variety, as is Cure 2. His good speed and above average Magic Defense make him solid, though, he's still got low HP, though not as bad as Reno. This is quite a nifty boost from his last fight.

Rude 3: (Rocket Town form)
HP: 9000
Party's Average HP: 2500

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Fast

Abilities:
Attack: 600
Grand Spark: 500, Magical, can be double/triple cast
Mbarrier: Halves all Magic damage (including ITD) for about 5 turns (hard to say exactly, its time based)
Bolt 2: 450
Cure 2: 1150 Healing, used as a counter at low HP

Comments: Yeah, this form is probably meant to be fought before the Gelinka one, since its inferior in...well, every way. Magic Barrier is nice, I guess, but the pitiful HP, and crap physical damage says otherwise. The Triple usage of Spark is decent magic damage, but...in general, he wants the Gelinka Form far more than this one in nearly all situations, unless he desperately needs magic damage.

Diamond Weapon:
*HP: 50000
Party Average: 2500

*Taken from a FAQ. Don't know if this is correct or not, and you can't scan him so if anybody knows his actual HP value, verifying this or not, would be nice.

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Average

*Takes 0 from any normal physical (this includes Death Blow, Morph, etc), HOWEVER, Limits bypass this, and do half thier normal damage

Abilities:
Stomp: 1000, Magical (...)
Beam Attack: 750, magical
Count Down: Starts Charging for Diamond Flash. Note that he can still attack while charging. Used after 15k or so damage is taken. Counter starts at 3, goes down 1 every turn, loses Physical Immunity while charging
Diamond Flash: Gravity (87.5%), adds silence Status

Comments: well, I don't know how, but somehow being stepped on by a giant Godzilla sized monster hurts less than a bald man with Sunglasses punching you...don't you love RPG Logic? Anyway, his defensive game is his best thing going for him, with great HP, and being virtually physically immune. Diamond Flash can really screw people up, as not only does it knock them into basically death range, but also forces them to use physicals on him, which of course, means your screwed (though, in game, it often provokes a limit, so he's asking for a follow up beat down) Pity about the charge time though

Elena:
*HP: 30000~
Average HP: 2800
*Unknown exact value. She's definatly got higher than the other two, but you can't Sense her (but you can sense the OTHER 2 -_-), so, yeah

Defense: Average
Magic Defense:
Speed: Above Average
Absorbs Ice

Abilities:
*"Try this on for size!": 550, Physical
"Take That!" Front Row: 550, Physical
Flare Shot: 600, physical
Physical: 1000
"Take that!" Back Row: Adds Confusion status
"Ouch, that hurt!": Jumps to the back row, physical damage now is halved

*this is identical to "Take that!" front Row, just that its her opening move, and she apparently has an inniative with it too. personally, I give her the inniative, but force her to open with it.

Comments: Elena is the most durable of the Turks, period...not that it says much. Her damage is pretty "meh" and being all physical isn't something that complements well with her confusion status, though, I guess she could purposely skip turns or something <_< Absorbing Ice is nice for taking out annoying Ice mages

Reno 4: (Midgar Form)
HP: 25000

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Below Average (takes about 6000 from Cloud's Ultima when the other 2 take 4800~
Speed: Above Average
Absorbs Lightning

Abilities:
Physical: 650
Electropod: 1500, physical
Turk Light: 550, magical

Comments: Wow, it took him 4 forms to do it, but Reno FINALLY got something that resembles damage in Electropod. Besides that? Same as all the other times, with the new addition of absorbing lightning now though, which helps. This is the form he goes for when Status doesn't work (Neo Turk Light or Pyramid, and to lesser extent, Electro Mag Rod) Though, I guess its good to see that Reno has a (Small) chance against SOME bosses using this form...

Rude 4: (Midgar Form)
HP: 28000

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Above Average
Speed: Average
Absorbs Fire

Abilities:
Physical: 2200
Grand Spark: 1000

Comments: Well absorbing fire is good, since there are lots of Fire Mages running around, though, he's more or less the same mold as his previous forms, though, his damage is considerably better, which is good for him. Nothing all that great, but he's not all too bad either.

Hojo:
HP: 13000

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Unknown (he doesn't do anything besides summon monsters)

Abilities
Capsule: Summons up Bad Rap Sample, and Poodler Sample. Given this is actually an in battle summon, some might allow them, not to mention that's LITERALLY all this form CAN do.

Bad Rap Sample:
HP: 11000

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Average

Abilities:
Physical: 350

Comments: one of the only ways Hojo's first form can actually kill something...and its not very good at doing that -_-;

Poodler Sample:
HP: 10000

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Average

Abilities:
Physical: 400

Comments: the OTHER way Hojo's first form can do damage...and its only SLIGHTLY better at doing so, but takes hits worse...

Helletic Hojo:
HP: 26000
MP: 200

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Slow

Abilities:
Confu: Adds confusion, bad hit rate
Physical: 1350

Comments: Well his damage is...alright, maybe? Pity he's slow as all hell, and Confu just plain doesn't hit. I guess this form is useful for Form Chaining in that it helps him outlast enemies, but other than that *punts*

Lifeform Hojo:
HP: 30000

Defense: Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Above Average

Abilities:
Combo: Hits 4x for 400~ damage each (1600), adds Poison and Sleep, physical, note that each hit is counterable individually
Slow(All): Adds slow status, 67% hit rate
Silence: Adds silence status, 50% hit rate, used as a counter against Magic or summons
Physical: 900

Comments: This form, now, finally Hojo has some nice decencies. Namely, several status' to work with. If your a mage and not immune to Silence, better run screaming, as Silence will kill you. Being able to Inflict Sleep status is good too, though, Poison on PCs isn't quite as threatening as it is when Bosses are inflicted with it (FF7 poison utterly rapes Disc 1 bosses) Slow lets him get many turns on people to boot. The only form of his that's actually got a shot at winning matches in a division outside of Light, heh.

Jenova Synthesis:
HP: 60000
Party's Average (no Materia): 5000~

Defnse: Below Average
magic Defense: Below Average
Speed: Average

Abilities
Physical: 1600 (needs an Arm alive)
Bio 2: 1100, Poison elemental, adds poison status randomly
Absorb: 1000, Magical, adds Fury status
Stop: Adds stop status, good accurracy
Ultima: 9000, 5 turn charge time, used at 10000 > HP

Comments: well she has God Like damage with Ultima! ...pity it'll almost never see use, given the damage spike in the end (with all the Ultimate Weapons running around and high level materia, 60k HP falls FAST), and the obscene charge times. She has Stop, which would make this form useful...if Jenova Birth didn't have it already, and sadly that form is better in just about every way. well, I guess this is the Kick Raja's Ass for Free form, or something, but...really, its SAD, REALLY SAD. Even Jenova Death managed to have some hypothetical use (outside of Raja), this form...lets just say Banon can put up a good fight with -_-

Safer Sephiroth:
HP: ?
Party Average: 5000

Defense: Below Average
Magic Defense: Average
Speed: Fast

Abilities:
Wall: Halves all damage, including ITD, for about 3 turns
Shadow Flare: 6300, magical, NOT Defense Ignoring
Physical: 6000
Fly: Becomes immune to all melee attacks. Can not use any move but Pale Horse, Super Nova, or Break
Pale Horse: 1700, adds Frog and Mini status
Super Nova: 87.5% Gravity, unblockable, 50% chance of Confusion, Silence, Sadness, and Slow status
Break: 5000, Earth elemental
Despell: Nulls all positive status effects
Heartless Angel: HP -> 1, BLOCKABLE (unlike Fallen one or Soul Rend), used at low HP only
Deen: 1400, magical

Comments: Holy Crap! Sephiroth is...well...yeah, he kicks ass. Dishes out OHKO damage, some status moves, melee immunity, HP to 1, the godly deen!1!!...yeah, he's pretty respectable in all regards. And that's not where it stops, he also has game best HP BY FAR (at least 70k, but...there's lots of factors that change that value), and he's fast too. Easily the best boss in...well, just about everyway. Though, his one flaw is that, given this is FF7, w/out wall, his durability pretty unimpressive, since his HP falls really fast in game, thankfully, Wall takes care of that. Easily one of the best God Likes around, its no wonder he's a former God Like Champion.

What about Bizzarro? ...that form has so many interpretation issues, such as being a multipart boss, and it, well, to be blunt, SUCKS. And mind, its NOT a form chain. Bizzarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth, despite having no plot scene in between, are two totally different fights. Proof? I had my team hasted against Bizzarro, and against Safer, said status was gone. If that was one fight, the status would have stayed (only permanant status' in FF7 are Fury and Sadness, and that's cause while technically negative, they have some clear positive benefits (Fury speeds up limit gauge, Sadness increases defenses. So yeah, they are clearly two seperate fights, form Chaining excuse doesn't go there for Sephiroth, IMHO. As far as uses for that form? ...he has NONE, outside of Bizzaro Energy's healing, and...well, that's not saving him with his far inferior damage, speed, and durability...

That said, I have given my thoughts about DL bosses. And its no surprise that Sephiroth is the best of them by far, and that Jenova is distant 2nd Place (not that she's bad though) Oh, and Rufus is a clear God Like too <.<

[Meeplelard]

Now for some FRUE BOSS SPEEDS!
...courtesy of Elfboy.  Note these are not 100% consistent with my observations, since FF7 uses ATB thus lots of room for error, etc.  Just remember that for PC to Boss comparisons, you'll need to add +50 to PC speed before they're on the same scale.

All right, here are some notes on boss speed, comparing numbers in the Enemy Mech FAQ to Meep's observations. It isn't clear how much boss "speed" is worth... it could be compared literally against PC speed, or it could use its own formula in some way.

Reno: 50 "Above average"
Rufus: 72 "Above average"
Jenova*BIRTH: 60 "Sluggish"
Gongaga Reno: 69 "Above average"
Gongaga Rude: 65 "Above average"
Palmer: 60 "Average"
Godo: 68 "Fast" (*)
Jenova*LIFE: 140 "Average" (!!!)
Jenova*DEATH: 150 "Below average" (!!!)
Carry Armour: 80 "Slow" (**)
Gelnika Reno: 85 "Above average"
Gelnika Rude: 79 "Fast" (?)
Rocket Town Rude: 78 "Fast"
Diamond Weapon: 180 "Average" (***)
Elena: 85 "Above average"
Final Reno: 80 "Above average"
Final Rude: 70 "Average"
Hojo: 78 "Unknown"
Helletic Hojo: 68 "Slow"
Lifeform Hojo: 100 "Above average"
Jenova*SYNTHESIS: 120 "Average" (****)
Safer*Sephiroth: 160 "Fast"

(*) Godo, fast? Sure doesn't seem like it on paper (Reno 2 is faster, much earlier)... unless all bosses are fast, and it's just more obvious in a duel.

(**) Carry Armour skips turns, sometimes.

(***) Can't see anything that'd cause him to skip turns, so his speed looks... rather badass, unless something else is up. He also has strong defences (Meep noted this with "limits do half damage")... but only 30000 HP (not 50000).

(****) Seems above to me. However, she skips turns whenever the arms are dead.

(?) Can't see any reason Meep would have called Rude faster than Reno, based on both the script and my memory that says Reno was the faster one.

(!!!) Jenova*LIFE and Jenova*DEATH are both in the running for fastest boss in the game (rivalled only by the Weapons, really). With regards to LIFE, I can't see anything in her script that could cause her to skip a turn and thus appear slow. On the other hand, apparently she can only doublecast Blue Light, where Meep called it a triple... I'd hypothesise he was getting doubleturned and didn't know it.

DEATH... has something in her script that confuses me. It could be something that causes her to waste turns... or it could allow her to chain Tropic Wind in with Red Light on a single turn, I can't tell which. Also: DEATH can always triplecast Red Light (the odds rise to 100% at low HP, but are never less than 25%, which certainly isn't unreasonable to allow in a DL-like setting).

Make of this what you will.

END OF ELFBOY'S STUFF!

...and now onto Tonfa's corrections of my own post, etc.!

Reno 1 has only 1 version of Electro Mag Rod, which is Lightning elemental, and has 11% base Paralyze rate

Jenova-Birth's Stop has 25% base hit rate, sounds like you've had some really bad luck when testing. That said, she can doubleattack a Stopped enemy with one of her physicals(33% chance). That "missing attack" is just another clone of her physical(Why?)

If Gongaga Reno is hit by a Lightning spell, he starts using Electroprod, which is a Lightning elemental physical that does a little less damage than Turk Light. Needless to say, doesn't save this form from Puny.

Gongaga Rude has Cure (458 HP back), but he only uses it on Reno, and only if Reno's HP is below 50%. He also has Grand Spark, but it has been dummied out.

Palmer has three different versions of the Mako Gun attack(IOWs, they're like FFT Bio spells). They're actually lv2 spells in disguise, and thus use 22MP. (Palmer has 240.) Also, him getting hit by a truck is technically his "final attack". Thus, every Palmer writeup must involve a truck. >_>

Godo has 1000 MP. Mini and Sleepel have 30% base success rates, Bio2 has a 20% base chance of Poison.

Jenova-LIFE's Blue Light costs 8MP, Blue Flame costs 12MP. Reflect costs 30MP, and is only used as a counter to magic.

Jenova-DEATH has 800 MP. Red Light costs 8MP, Tropic Wind 12MP, and her 25% base hit rate Silence costs 24MP.

Carry Armor can sometimes use Lapis Laser at the start of the battle (First Strike).

Gelnika Reno starts using Electroprod 2 after being hit by a Lightning elemental spell. According to Meep's physical damage numbers, this should do 1870 damage.

A bug exists in Gelnika Rude's AI script that makes him unable to do anything for the rest of the battle if he uses something else than his physical (...). Personally, I just disregard this as an AI flaw. He also has Ice 2 in addition to Fire 2 and Bolt 2, and a dummied out Grand Spark(Why?). He has 280 MP.

Rocket Town Rude has 240 MP.

Diamond Weapon has only 30,000 HP. Weak to Lightning, halves Fire.

Elena indeed does have 30,000 HP. Her Confusion has a 33% base hit rate.

Final Reno's Electroprod is, as always, Lightning elemental. This time he has no special conditions for using it though.

Final Rude has Fire and Cure, but they have been dummied out, and would have been laughable anyway. As a side note, his all forms sometimes cover Reno.

Hojo's Capsule monsters are slightly better than that: Poodler Sample has Fire2, Bad Rap Sample has Big Fang(900) and Evil Poison(300 poison elemental damage+100% Blind)

Helletic Hojo has several attacks you didn't list: Bio Gas(laughable damage+100% Poison, when both arms are alive), Sleepel(30% Sleep, right arm dead) and Silence(25% base Silence, left arm dead). Also, his Confu has 25% base hit rate and is only used when both arms are alive. The arms do nothing.

Lifeform Hojo has a magic attack called Absorb(2MP), does ~400 damage based on your Turk damage notes.
Combo:

First hit causes no status.
2nd hit poisons (33% base)
3rd hit blinds (33%)
4th hit puts to sleep (33%)

His Silence(24MP) has 25% base hit rate, and Slow(20MP) has 40% base hit rate. He has 100 MP.

Safer Sephiroth's base HP is 80,000. His physical causes Paralyze and Blind(100%!). Shadow Flare costs 100MP. This is notable because Sephiroth has only 680 MP. Pale Horse causes Sadness in addition to Frog and Mini. Super Nova doesn't cause Sadness. Break(86MP) has a 14% base chance of Petrify, which is also the chance Super Nova has to inflict each invidual status(?!).

END OF TONFA!

A few things to note about his post however:
Status Moves (barring Damage + Status moves like Bio2) are *NOT* to be taken literally.  Apparently, Base Hit Rate refers to "Value used in Algorithms" as tests run by a few people have proven that these rates are indeed much higher in practice.  Also, probably related to level some, as we've been noted by someone doing a No EXP game of FF7 that he misses spells a lot more often than is use to, and is not using Fury Status.

Similarly, the comment about Safer Sephiroth's MP is moot, since Sephiroth restores his MP every time he has a turn, so effectively has infinite MP.

ALSO from Tonfa, EFFECTIVE ENEMY DEFENSE VALUES!

Okay, defense/magic defense values relative to the random enemy averages of the time for the bosses. This means how much damage they would take from physical/magical attacks in percentages.

Guard Scorpion: 94 P, 50 M. Tail up: 51 P, 25 M.
Air Buster: 84 P, 43 M.
Aps: 99 P, 75 M
Reno(Sector 7): 94 P, 95 M
H0512: 92 P, 94 M
Hundred Gunner: 95 P, 56 M
Heli Gunner: 96 P, 60 M Spinning: 86 P, 50 M
Rufus: 98 P, 72 M
Motor Ball: 98 P, 98 M
Bottomswell: 101 P, 86 M
Jenova-BIRTH: 94 P, 76 M
Dyne: 97 P, 66 M
Reno(Gongaga): 96 P, 117 M
Rude(Gongaga): 89 P, 105 M
Gi Nattak: 93 P, 91 M
Lost Number: 96 P, 75 M Magical form: 115 P, 23 M Physical form: 27 P, 101 M
Materia Keeper: 91 P, 62 M
Palmer: 89 P, 82 M
Rapps: 102 P, 25 M
Godo: 97 P, 110 M
Red Dragon: 103 P, 83 M
Demons Gate: 98 P, 20 M
Jenova-LIFE: 89 P, 55 M
Schizo(both): 103 P, 102 M
Jenova-DEATH: 94 P, 44 M
Carry Armor(and arms): 72 P, 50 M
Rude(Rocket Town): 104 P, 83 M
Reno(Gelnika): 105 P, 121 M
Rude(Gelnika): 99 P, 102 M
Diamond Weapon: 66 P, 76 M. Immune to physicals (other than Limits) except when charging for Diamond Flash.
Elena: 104 P, 82 M
Reno(Midgar): 97 P, 104 M
Rude(Midgar): 95 P, 82 M
Proud Clod: 87 P, 64 M
Hojo(form 1): 97 P, 110 M
Helletic Hojo: 94 P, 95 M
Right Arm: 94 P, 116 M
Left Arm: 92 P, 110 M
Lifeform-Hojo N: 94 P, 101 M
Jenova-Synthesis(and arms): 104 P, 99 M
Safer Sephiroth: 104 P, 99 M

RUBY WEAPON: 8 P, 4 M (Yes. Insane.)

Let the Sephiroth Mdef hype commence! *is shot*

END OF TONFA MARK 2!

If its not  obvious, those values are Lower = Better.

[Meeplelard]

Alright, it occurred to me that, well, we should probably have more accurate damage averages for Aeris.  So here's a list of damages gotten after/during Temple of Ancients.  Here's the weapons each character was using, all of it was available by the end of TEmple of Ancients, barring one weapon, which doesn't matter a whole lot:

Cloud: Nail Bait.  It has +4% Crit rate, mind; not sure HOW this translates, just tossing it out there (This applies to all weapons with a Crit Boost.)
Barret: Rocket Punch; +4% Crit Rate.
Tifa: Work Glove; +4% Crit Rate
Aeris: Umbrella *AND* Princess Guard; she uses for both, figured I'd grab both damages.  Note the former has a +5% Crit Rate.  I have the hidden stats listed for both weapons listed in Aeris' original post, mind, so not repeating them here!
Red XIII: Seraph Comb
Yuffie: Superball, which has +4% Crit Rate; note that Magic Shuriken still exists, is slightly weaker (about 20 less damage),  only +2% Crit Rate (instead of +4%) and has +10 Dexterity.  White not mattering a lot for damages, it should probably be her default weapon for averages like this for Aeris' Speed purposes and such (...or you know, you could ignore it entirely, cause the average change is one freaking FF7 Speed point, whoo!)
Cait Sith: Trumpet Shell; +4% Crit Rate.
Vincent: Silver Rifle; +4% Crit Rate
Cid: Mop, +5% Crit Rate. Note that this weapon is TECHNICALLY gotten right after Temple of Ancients so could be argued not legit for Aeris. *HOWEVER*, the Dragoon Lance can be obtained before she leaves (its in Wutai), and its only 2 attack weaker, and no Crit Boost, meaning a negligible damage loss (like 10 points or so.)
If you don't like Wutai? Then Trident Still exists, which is 8 points weaker than Mop (so about 40 damage loss.)

Note that the Crit Boosts are *NOT* literal.  Its +% to whatever the base is, and its not explained whether the denominator is 100% or 255% (all that's known is that with +255% Crit Rate, you always Critical Hit, as shown by Sephiroth's Masamune.  No weapon has much higher than +5% so...yeah.)  Basically, I'm just tossing them there for completion purposes, since they're related to damage.

Note that Cloud, Red XIII and Yuffie all have Materia for damage as well.  Cloud and Red XIII may or may not have Level 3's on their respective materia.  I'm listing the level 3 damage, and taking averages with and without them, to get an idea for both.  What about Level 2 damage?  It sucks and doesn't matter for these purposes (its less than their physical, IOWs.)
Also note that Cloud and Red XIII, when using Materia, have a SLIGHT damage drop.  Cloud is also using Murasame when he casts Magic, so his physical would suffer too, but I figure he's doing one or the other, never both, so not listing Murasame damage.
Yuffie is assumed using Throw Chain Saw, which is the strongest Store bought Weapon at this time (Wutai again.)  If you think Wutai should not be factored in? Her damage drops slightly, as she resorts to Throwing Shotguns from Rocket Town (this translates to about 40 less damage or so.)

Ok, now that THAT'S out of the way, lets get the damages...all taken at level 38!

Cloud: 787
Cloud's Ice/Bolt 3: 1787
Barret: 720
Tifa: 762
Aeris (Umbrella): 624
Aeris (Princess Guard): 588
Red XIII: 762
Red XIII's Fire 3: 1624
Yuffie: 715
Yuffie's Throw Chain Saw: 1238
Cait Sith: 720
Vincent: 666 (...how fitting...)
Cid: 750

Average Damage (includes Magic): 988
Average Physical Damage: 781

NOTE: I included Yuffie's Throw for both damages cause unlike the Magic Materia, there's no Materia level subjectivity.  Also, Aeris was assumed using the Umbrella in both.

As a reminder! Limits still exist, and at the same mults.  Typically, you shouldn't have beyond the level 2 limits at this point, and in the case of Cid, he shouldn't have beyond Level 1s (THOUGH, Cid doesn't gain much in the way of damage on Level 2's anyway.)  Make of this as you will.

[DjinnAndTonic]

3-turn Average assuming first-turn full Limit Meter: 8731 [kill point: 15000]
Cloud: 17267 (Omnislash - Bolt/Ice3 - Bolt/Ice3)
Cid: 11100 (Highwind - Physicalx2)
Yuffie: 9250 (Doom of the Living - Physicalx2)
Red XIII: 8816 (Earth Rave - Physicalx2)
Barret: 8433 (Catastrophe - Physicalx2)
Tifa: 6400 (Lvl4 Limit chain - Physicalx2)
Cait Sith: 4833 (Physical [4500] - Toy Soldier [7000, best semi-reliable Limit] - Physical [3000, being generous])
Vincent: 3750 (Chaos Sabrex2 - Satan Flare)

It should be noted that this topic doesn't have any damage averages in the first post.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Two problems there.

1. You used Tifa's non-crit damage, you should probably use the crits. Her three-turn with that rises to about 13000 (depends on how you deal with her followup physicals). Average thus is 9550.

2. Your kill point is less than 2x average damage? That doesn't really make sense. 2.5x9550 = 23875.


WHAT THIS DOES TO THE CAST, since I'm interested:

-Cloud has nearly 2x OHKO damage, or 100% ID. Nasty stuff, probably should go to Godlike.
-Barret is Cloud with half as much damage. Still has 100% ID. Still, if he faces something with above-PC pdur and ID immunity he is beyond fucked, due to his sub-Cristo backup damage. Heavy, I'd wager.
-Tifa has 1.6x OHKO. Nothing else, but that's pretty mean in and of itself. Heavy/Godlike or so.
-Cait still wins with status or infinite healing, so not much has changed. Dislikes that his damage fails much more, anyway. Middle/Heavy.
-Red XIII... can buff first turn (Haste/Berserk/Damage Up) then 3HKO from there, and keeps pressure on for longer fights. Probably likes this more than his current setup? Thinking High Middle.
-Yuffie has a high speed 3HKO, with Doom of the Living + physical x2. Fails a lot against people with more durability, though, and her healing game is now completely unusable instead of merely mediocre. I dunno, High Middle?
-Cid has near OHKO damage like Barret, and better followup. Also has ID, though it's not as good. Low Heavy?
-Vincent... either goes for turn 4 status, or doubles his HP and... 7HKOs off below average speed, partially elemental. Hahaha. The cast failure, obvious Light.

Overall, the cast likes this if you give it to them.

[Meeplelard]

Listed damages, for those who aren't keen.  Unsure how I let that pass.  I figure there are two reasonable methods about this, given limits and such, so listed them.  Taking "3 turn" can get...nuisancy in a game where characters don't naturally build up gauges and such.  I figure the two I showed are both reasonable enough, whichever one you take depends on interps etc.

[SnowFire]

As a semi-random thought..  while ignoring row is often nice for DL purposes, and often doesn't actually matter (FF6, say, where the entire cast is Back Row anyway, except for maybe Relm, so it cancels out), FF7 is a game where it could actually affect things a semi-decent amount.  What happens if we assume that everyone doesn't have the invisible Long-Range materia that's normally pretended to be there, and force short-range fighters to actually go to the front row for more damage?

Yuffie & Barret are thrilled, of course.  Vincent is mostly thrilled, though mildly annoyed that Galian Beast's Berserk Dance is less impressive (just like in game).  Cloud and Red are mostly happy that the damage average has gone down, as the Ultima Weapon / Limited Moon are a lot scarier when they face off against pure mages / duelers slower than them / damageless status whores.  Cait is ambivalent, as he's still about the status game mostly still, and the better defense from the back row might save him when he needs to get a turn against duelers who outspeed him and have extreme physical damage.  But he's more screwed over when he needs to actually fight (which are generally losses in Heavy anyway). 

Tifa / Aeris / Cid ...  sometimes want to be in the back row anyway, actually.  Against physical fighters, back row will make it harder to chip around Limits, and these three are now more dependent on pulling off cool limits.  They go to the front row against mages, of course, for the better damage.

Anyway, assuming Yuffie / Barret / Vincent always want the back row, while the rest of the cast is half & half...  this implies that the "average" is 12/18 = 2/3 of the way back.  In-game, you take 100% damage in the front, 50% damage in the back, so picking back 2/3 of the time implies average physical damage is 67%.  Thus, comparatively, being in the back row means you only take 75% damage from short-range physical attacks (.50/.67), and being in the front-row means you take 150% damage (1.00/.67).

As for the new damage average, assuming the proportions mentioned above (that is, half & half for the 6 characters who are somewhat interested in short range attacks...)...

1. Yuffie 6000
2. Cloud 4700 (6000 FR / 3400 Ice3 BR) 
3. Cid 4050 (5400 FR / 2700 BR)
4. Red XIII 4000 (5100 FR / 2900 Fire3 BR)
5. Cait Sith 3375 (4500 FR / 2250 BR)
6. Barret 1900
7. Vincent 1500
8. Tifa 1175 (1500 FR / 750 BR)

Average: 3338  (Normal, all Front row Average: 3978)

Makes for some interesting choices, if nothing else.  Tentatively, the cast mostly gets stronger from this, even Tifa...  she's worse at physical slugfesting, sure, but has better damage against mages and a better shot at getting a good limit against fighters.  Cait gets the better durability option as noted before since he wasn't winning slugfests in Heavy anyway.  Cloud & Red are the most ambivalent, probably, but like this some of the time.  And Yuffie grins like a cat, getting better damage for nothing.

[Dark Holy Elf]

First of all, ALL limits ignore row, including Vincent's.

With that in mind, the only characters who would want front row are those who use their physicals with any real frequency, and said physicals are short range. This is Cloud, Cid, and Red (Cait doesn't care much because he's all about status and healing anyway). I dunno. I'd be inclined to view back row as standard for everyone, with Cloud/Cid/Red(/Cait) being able to get better non-limit damage in exchange for being raped by physicals. I think everyone prefers back row on average. FF7 characters, even the ones with good physicals, tend to want to get limits to win, and giving the opponent double damage is a pretty awesome way to not get a good limit... at WORST (a mage, say), you're giving the enemy more effective chipping options.

Aeris also hates you forever for this view, since it just got even harder for her to win Healing Wind-based slugfests.

I'm not actually particularly opposed to the view, it largely has the effect of making FF1 normal physicals worse, and... seeing as you spend 90% of the game with weapons that lack the powerups of the ultimates (and everyone has a limit that does 3x or better their physical as a L1 except Vincent and Aeris), I think this is actually a pretty fair reflection. On the other hand it decreases uniqueness, always bad. I dunno.

[Meeplelard]

Not to mention that in addendum to the Limit point, Vincent, one of the two characters who doesn't, has nothing BUT Long Range weapons anyway, so the view falls short.

...so really, it is accurately representing FF7 in the sense that Aeris hates Back Row...except that in game, Aeris was generally casting Magic anyway, but hush <_<

[SnowFire]

Huh.  I assumed that Vincent's attacks were the exception and that only the transform part counted as a "limit".  Guess his physical attacks always are meh even if you stick him in the front row.

Assuming back row 100% of the time...  yeah, Aeris does hate that forever, because the one advantage she had in 2/3 back, making it mildly harder for physical fighters to chip with the 75% damage in the backrow...  now entirely disintegrates, so she's taking just as much damage but doing much worse damage.  Assuming constant backrow does open up the possibility of brutal initial hits from the front row...  yeah, FF7 row mechanics are "too good" in some ways, and allowing them with constant backrow means that the cast becomes brutal mage-killers.  Which is kinda weird.  It also makes the cast more dependent on who started with what materia rather than their ultimate weapons...  both somewhat obscure facts in the course of a normal game.  Hrmm.

All back row (100% damage taken in back, 200% in front) damage average:

1. Yuffie 6000
2. Cloud 3400 Ice3
3. Red XIII 2900 Fire3 (Assuming he still uses the Limited Moon)
4. Cid  2700
5. Cait Sith 2250
6. Barret 1900
7. Vincent 1500
8. Tifa 750

Average: 2675 (2/3 Back avg.: 3338, all front avg.: 3978)

Yuffie now has 90% PCHP damage (!), though she loses the free defense boost from the 2/3 back view.  Cloud has 90%PCHP damage, too, and if he can survive a double-damage hit, can follow it up with a 51% PCHP Bolt3 or a limit.  Generally the average of choice for Yuffie fanboys.

Yeah, the all back row version feels a bit weird.  Of course the more general problem is that 50% damage / damage reduction is *really* swingy and tends to be a huge factor...  almost makes me tempted to arbitrarily nerf back row to be 75% damage taken / 50% damage given or something, which would give the long-range characters a defense advantage but still generally discourage short-range characters from using the backrow.  Eh, an interesting thought experiment, at least.

[PKNintendo]

Actually Meeple I think you made a mistake.

Finishing Touch: 3.25x MT, always causes ID

Finishing touch is a 2 part move. If it fails to cause ID, it deals damage.
IIRC, some enemies have DI and get hit by part 2.

[Meeplelard]

Yes, that's kind of a given.  The "100% Instant Death" thing implies "If enemy is not immune."  The damage thing still technically exists in some manner if the person is IDed, it just NEVER MATTERS.  Anytime Damage is attached to ID moves like that, its just easier to list the damage (or in this case, the Mults) and the fact that it adds instant death (and ideally, the rate)

[DjinnAndTonic]

List of plotclaim materia I'm considering allowing. Correct me if I get anything really wrong.

Cloud:
Restore (Found in No.1 Reactor before Guard Scorpion. If you follow the tutorial, Cloud ends up with this equipped.)
Destruct (Yeah, Sephiroth throws it at Cloud. I've allowed far weaker claims.)
All (Found in Sector 7 beginner's hall. IIRC, Cloud is by himself here? Even if not, you can win one from the Snowboarding minigame which clearly stars Cloud.)
Final Attack (One-time prize for winning the Battle Square Special Battle, which I believe is a Cloud solo fight.)
Shiva (Given straight to Cloud a little bit after he saves Priscilla's life.)
Ifrit (Pops out of Jenova-BIRTH on the Shinra Ship.  Your other party members (no matter who you chose) will automatically start heading for the exit of the room after the battle (I believe), leaving Cloud to have to turn around and pick this up.  Missable if you don't get it then.)
Ramuh - Missable materia in the Chocobo Lounge.  Cloud's the only one in the party at the time, and if you don't get it here, it's gone for good.


Aeris:
Comet (Found in City of the Ancients, just before Jenova. Maybe related to Aeris. Probably 'no' on this one.)
Cover (Found in Aeris' Garden... not very useful on her...)
Enemy Skill (Found in Aeris' glass container at Shinra.)

Tifa:
Elemental (Found in Tifa's piano, and only available when Tifa is party leader. Only useful if there's an elemental Materia I missed for Tifa somewhere.)

Red XIII:
Gravity (Found in Gi cave, part of Red's hometown.)
FullCure (Found in Cosmo Canyon, Red's hometown, after you get the Highwind. May disallow due to this giving Cid some weak plotclaim to it?)
Added Effect (Found in Gi cave, not that he can use it...)
Enemy Skill (Dropped by one of his fellow experiments, the boss Sample HO512 during Red's intro scenario.)

Cait Sith;
Speed Plus (Iffy on this. Battle Square Prize somehow associated with Cait Sith?)

Cid:
Ultima (Iffy on this. Gotten for free if obtained during a section that can only be done while Cid is the party leader.)

Yuffie:
Leviathan (Wutai's guardian deity, received through Yuffie's sidequest against Godo)
HP Absorb (Found in Yuffie's -house-.)

Vincent:
Odin (Required to get this materia before recruiting Vincent.)

I didn't really see anything that Barret had claim to... but it's been a while since I played FF7, so maybe there's something?

EDIT with a new possibilities after a replay for my own reference:

Cloud:
Ice (initial equip)
Lightning (initial equip)
Restore (force-equipped during tutorial)
HP Plus (given to Cloud as prize for rifle performance minigame while Cloud is undercover solo as a Shinra grunt)
Destruct* (thrown at Cloud by Sephiroth)
All* (Cloud-only snowboarding minigame prize)
Magic Counter* (Cloud-only chocobo racing minigame prize)
Final Attack* (Cloud must learn Omnislash and have ultimate weapon to access this special Gold Saucer battle's prize)
Sneak Attack* (Cloud-only chocobo racing minigame prize)
Enemy Away* (Cloud-only chocobo racing minigame prize)
Quadra Magic** (requires specific chocobos only obtained through Cloud-only minigame)
Mime** (requires specific chocobos only obtained through Cloud-only minigame)
Counter Attack** (requires specific chocobos only obtained through Cloud-only minigame)
HP<->MP** (requires specific chocobos only obtained through Cloud-only minigame)
Knights of the Round** (requires specific chocobos only obtained through Cloud-only minigame)
E. Skill** (found in Junon beginner's hall, where Cloud infiltrates as a Shinra grunt during a solo section)
Shiva* (given to Cloud during cutscene after he saves Priscilla's life with CPR minigame)

Barret:
All** (Sector 7 slums)

Tifa:
Elemental (found in Tifa's piano only while Tifa is party leader)

Aerith:
Cover* (found near Aerith's house in Midgar)
Comet** (found in the city of the Ancients)
E. Skill** (found in a bedroom in the city of the Ancients)
Morph** (found in the city of the Ancients)
Bahamut** (found in the Temple of the Ancients)

Red XIII:
Fire (initial equip)
Sense (initial equip)
Poison* (found just before Red XIII's recruitment)
Gravity* (found during Red-required subquest, Gi Nattak cave)
Added Effect* (found during Red-required subquest, Gi Nattak cave)
E. Skill* (found just after Red XIII's recruitment, where he was imprisoned)

Cait Sith:
Transform (initial equip)
Manipulate (initial equip)

Cid:
Ultima (train sidequest performed while Cid is the lead player character)

Yuffie:
Throw (initial equip)
Leviathan (Yuffie's sidequest reward)
Heal, Revive, Restore, Seal, Fire, Ice, Lightning* (works as a materia merchant, selling these, is stated to have stolen them upon leaving the job)
MP Absorb* (found in Wutai, stolen by Yuffie in cutscene)
HP Absorb* (found in Wutai, in Yuffie's house)

Vincent:
Odin* (found during Vincent's recruitment sidequest)

[Cmdr_King]

Actually, that Cure materia blocks the way to GUARD SCORPION, meaning Barret is in your party at that time.
HOWEVER.   You can't access the Materia menu until you get in sector 7.  At this time, the game will offer you a tutorial on materia switching (Barret basically admits he has no idea how to use Materia, and you can choose whether or not to show him).  If memory serves, if you go through with it the Materia in question is in fact auto equipped on Cloud?  But maybe not.  I've skipped it like 8 playthroughs in a row.

Otherwise you generally touched on the issues of each thing you listed.  Although I'm a little surprised you bothered with the Comet Materia you find after Aeris has permanently left the party >.>
Probably worth noting that the Leviathan Materia is specifically awarded to the champion of the pagoda (ie Yuffie after you beat Godo), so if you're into plot claims at all it's pretty much aces.

[Magic Fanatic]

If you're thinking of other plotclaim materia with a shaky basis, then here's three more Cloud can own up to getting:

Shiva - Given straight to Cloud a little bit after he saves Priscilla's life.  Has this been discussed before?
Ifrit - Pops out of Jenova-BIRTH on the Shinra Ship.  Your other party members (no matter who you chose) will automatically start heading for the exit of the room after the battle (I believe), leaving Cloud to have to turn around and pick this up.  Missable if you don't get it then.
Ramuh - Missable materia in the Chocobo Lounge.  Cloud's the only one in the party at the time, and if you don't get it here, it's gone for good.

I...  Really don't remember which of the above has been discussed before, really.

Of course, this only matters for Ifrit if he needs to capitalize on a Fire weakness or something.

[Meeplelard]

Cloud is *NOT* alone when you get Elemental.  Barret and Tifa are very much with him.  All that's there is no plot scene, so as usual, we just see Cloud running around.

If anything, I'd say Cover is more a plot claim for Cloud than Aeris.  Yes, its in her garden...but consider the plot at the time.  Cloud is Aeris' "Body Guard", so if anything, plot would dictate, to get that Plot Feel, it should go to Cloud.

Furthermore, you can grab Cover while Aeris isn't even in your party; go into her house, on the way out, Cloud is alone (he splits from Aeris for a brief period), and can grab the Materia then.  I'm especially skeptical about Plot Claim Materias that can be gotten when that character is not in your party, like this one.  The exception is when the object in question is handed to a character, with the attached "Oh, please give it to x character when you meet them!" factor.  I think FF9 does this with the Garnet, admittedly, Zidane DOES hand Garnet said item in the exact following plot scene (not that said equip has ANY use in the DL; it literally exists to teach Garnet Bahamut and then just to power up said spell, neither of which are DL relevant, at least as an equip.)

Similarly, FullCure, for example, while it can be gotten as Cid...it can also be gotten as Cloud.  Is it possible to get this as Tifa even?  Still, just cause the character is a "leader", I feel wrong about calling it a plot Claim.  The character would need to actually have a plot break up, or be genuinely alone, for it to be Plot Claim.  One such example is the Shiva Materia; the team is clearly split up here, but Priscilla explicitly walks to Cloud and hands it to him.

I believe you missed Ultima for Cid for that matter, if we're gonna go that route regardless.  I seem to recall the Materia is explicitly handed to your party, and its when Cid is the leader.  Alternatively, its gotten in Corel, which is Barret's Hometown.

Contain can be gotten as Tifa, Cid or Cloud, and since its explicitly handed to your party, and you're big on this "Gotten when x is leader!" thing, that should count, for all that it can be gotten by any of those 3.

I will state that regardless of stances, Comet on Aeris is a huge "NO" from me.  As CK said, its incredibly skeptical to allow Aeris a Materia that she can NEVER USE IN GAME legit, on a mere silly plot claim.  That pretty much clinches any legal claims she can have for it to me, if in negative light.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Cloud is *NOT* alone when you get Elemental.  Barret and Tifa are very much with him.  All that's there is no plot scene, so as usual, we just see Cloud running around.

Thank you, I'll take that out.

If anything, I'd say Cover is more a plot claim for Cloud than Aeris.  Yes, its in her garden...but consider the plot at the time.  Cloud is Aeris' "Body Guard", so if anything, plot would dictate, to get that Plot Feel, it should go to Cloud.

Fair point, but my interp on what constitutes a 'plot claim' specifically includes equips that are found in a PCs' plot residence.

Similarly, FullCure, for example, while it can be gotten as Cid...it can also be gotten as Cloud.  Is it possible to get this as Tifa even?  Still, just cause the character is a "leader", I feel wrong about calling it a plot Claim.  The character would need to actually have a plot break up, or be genuinely alone, for it to be Plot Claim.  One such example is the Shiva Materia; the team is clearly split up here, but Priscilla explicitly walks to Cloud and hands it to him.

I agree with this point and I'm not sure where I implied that I allow equips that are handed to a party leader? I certainly didn't mean to imply it. For the Cid/Highwind thing on Red's materia list, I mentioned that Cid might have claim to it since it can only be gotten once you have the Highwind, but I think that has more to do with story progression than anything Cid's Highwind brings to the effort of getting said materia. As for Tifa's elemental, it specifically has to be Tifa sitting down to play the piano to get this materia, so I figured it might be worth mentioning. The bigger plot claim to me is that it is found in Tifa's property.

I believe you missed Ultima for Cid for that matter, if we're gonna go that route regardless.  I seem to recall the Materia is explicitly handed to your party, and its when Cid is the leader.  Alternatively, its gotten in Corel, which is Barret's Hometown.

I don't remember Ultima too well. Is there anything else about it that might effect plot claim? I forget who hands it to you. Maybe Barret gets it after all?

I will state that regardless of stances, Comet on Aeris is a huge "NO" from me.  As CK said, its incredibly skeptical to allow Aeris a Materia that she can NEVER USE IN GAME legit, on a mere silly plot claim.  That pretty much clinches any legal claims she can have for it to me, if in negative light.

Yeah, well, it was just something I always remembered thinking when I played FF7 for the first time. 'Hey, I found this materia while following Aeris! I should give it back to her when she joins up again!' (sad face). But yeah, I totally agree with you. Not that it affects her too much since I'm giving her freakin' Enemy Skill... Probably becomes cast-best dueller now... Yikes. Go Blue magic~ >.>;;

[Meeplelard]

I think the Aeris Enemy Skill thing is a huge stretch, honestly.  If anything, its dropped by the boss whose in there AFTER Aeris.  Lets look at the plot scene quickly:

Aeris is in tube...there's clearly nothing but her in there.  Red XIII comes in later...still nothing but those two.  Barret blasts the door down, Red XIII attacks Hojo, Cloud rushes in, and gets Aeris out, and as he's backing out of the chamber (which is still clearly empty, I might add), he says "The Elevator is moving."

When the Elevator allegedly comes up, we're into a total filler useless boss fight (where Aeris CANNOT participate in, bare in mind, for whatever that's worth; Cloud and Red XIII are both forced too, if that matters), and *AFTER* this fight, the Enemy Skill Materia can be seen rather prominently.

It strikes me that the materia clearly came from the Boss, and that FF7 wanted to make it dropped by said boss, but the game doesn't allow for Direct Materia Drops, so this was done as compensation.
I'm not even sure if you get a chance to adjust your party between the boss fight and the jail sequence, which if you don't, then Aeris isn't even in your team when the object is first available.

Now, ignoring the above, I will mention another thing regarding Enemy Skill...

At the very least, I would disallow Aeris to use any enemy Skill obtainable only on Disc 2/3.  This means her damage caps out at Beta, which is still significantly worse than end game physicals (Beta/Aqualung < Level 3's at ST, and we can see how strong those are relative to end game...), granted, she still ahs access to crap like Big Guard and Frog Song, so its not like she doesn't have OTHER nonsense.  Just feels wrong to give a character abilities they flat out can never use in game under any circumstance.  This is less a "Fei Yamikei" clause, and more "It literally cannot happen."  The former can be done in game totally legit, just isn't likely to happen; the latter...yeah, self explanatory.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I think the Aeris Enemy Skill thing is a huge stretch, honestly.  If anything, its dropped by the boss whose in there AFTER Aeris.  Lets look at the plot scene quickly:

Aeris is in tube...there's clearly nothing but her in there.  Red XIII comes in later...still nothing but those two.  Barret blasts the door down, Red XIII attacks Hojo, Cloud rushes in, and gets Aeris out, and as he's backing out of the chamber (which is still clearly, I might add), he says "The Elevator is moving."

When the Elevator allegedly comes up, we're into a total filler useless boss fight (where Aeris CANNOT participate in, bare in mind, for whatever that's worth; Cloud and Red XIII are both forced too, if that matters), and *AFTER* this fight, the Enemy Skill Materia can be seen rather prominently.

It strikes me that the materia clearly came from the Boss, and that FF7 wanted to make it dropped by said boss, but the game doesn't allow for Direct Materia Drops, so this was done as compensation.
I'm not even sure if you get a chance to adjust your party between the boss fight and the jail sequence, which if you don't, then Aeris isn't even in your team when the object is first available.

Fair call. I may ignore E. Skill for DL purposes simply because it's such a huge ranking change, but by my general plot claim interp guidelines, this is something that I'd allow to her. For board tournaments, she's most certainly getting this respect from me.

At the very least, I would disallow Aeris to use any enemy Skill obtainable only on Disc 2/3.  This means her damage caps out at Beta, which is still significantly worse than end game physicals (Beta/Aqualung < Level 3's at ST, and we can see how strong those are relative to end game...), granted, she still ahs access to crap like Big Guard and Frog Song, so its not like she doesn't have OTHER nonsense.  Just feels wrong to give a character abilities they flat out can never use in game under any circumstance.  This is less a "Fei Yamikei" clause, and more "It literally cannot happen."  The former can be done in game totally legit, just isn't likely to happen; the latter...yeah, self explanatory.

100% agreed here. She's not getting -all- the madness that E.Skill grants, just enough of it to still be an awesome status whore. Although, Beta's still not bad since she's a temp and not being compared to endgame physicals... >.>;;

[Dark Holy Elf]

I am still not sure how it is associated with Aeris unless you want to call that tube she shared with Red 13 and H0512 her "home". As Meeple said it is clearly dropped by the boss (thanks for clarifying Meeple, I had forgotten), has nothing to do with her, and has no indication that it's for her. There are plot claims and then there are plot claims but I don't even see the reach on this one. Even Red probably has a better claim to it since he's a beast and there's an association of Blue Magic with monster affinity, not to mention you grab it right as you recruit him.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... Well, I'm open to being convinced one way or the other. My biggest problem is not having played FF7 in a long while. I'll check out the scene on youtube when I get a chance and see how I feel about it.

[Yoshiken]

It strikes me that the materia clearly came from the Boss, and that FF7 wanted to make it dropped by said boss, but the game doesn't allow for Direct Materia Drops, so this was done as compensation.
I'm not even sure if you get a chance to adjust your party between the boss fight and the jail sequence, which if you don't, then Aeris isn't even in your team when the object is first available.

This is almost exactly right. You do get a chance to change your party, though, BUT the standard party it offers you is the same as the Sample fight, which, as you said, Aeris can't be a part of. Not only that, but there are no fights in between Sample and the jail sequence, so it is pointless changing the team. As such, yeah, it's pretty much a no-go for Aeris having Enemy Skill.

As for Ultima, it's given to the party leader (which is Cid at the time) if you stop the Corel Train with the other party members standing behind him at the time, IIRC. 'Course, that depends on whether or not you consider the fact that, if you fail to stop the train, you don't get given the Materia for free, but can instead buy it for 50k. As such, any party leader can obtain it, but it seems like it's plot-given to Cid (for all that he probably doesn't like it as much as most because of MP woes and the Venus Gospel (damages based on MP, right?))

Oh, and as for the Snowboarding All Materia, I'm going to assume Snowboarding is like Chocobo Racing and the other minigames, and say that it doesn't have to be Cloud - Tifa and Cid can play most of those instead.

Anyways, some very loose plot claims, Djinn-style. Vincent could arguably be given Odin, since it's found in the Shinra Mansion. Problem with this is that it's always found before Vincent is obtained, actually being required to get him to join. Also, it's found right next to Cosmo Memory, which could tie it to Red - in much the same way Sample 'drops' Enemy Skill, Lost Number 'drops' Odin, while actually dropping Cosmo Memory. I guess it could be argued for either? I'd probably give neither, but the fact that it's in Shinra Mansion to begin with means Djinn'll probably hand it to Vinnie. ;) This... gives him a chance of ID? Some semi-competent (and ITD?) damage?
As such, Cait Sith technically has claim to Speed Plus (from the Battle Arena) as well as... some stuff I've now forgotten from Chocobo Racing, although I'd not give claim to any of those. Still, the Speed Plus would make him... the same as every other turn 1 status whore. >.>

[Clear Tranquil]

You're right Yoshi but the party does split at some point after that? With Aerith as the party leader in the Shinra building. I guess I'd allow her any materia she can pick up then if any (POIZN oh noes!?) As far as the Enemy Skill materia goes I wouldn't say it doesn't have anything to do with her completely - if the boss drops it we're fighting the boss so that *she* can be taken to safety. It's all part of the rescue Aerith procedure! *flee*