Succinct Mafia - Game over

[Deltaflyer]

Okay. Let me clear up a few things. I have been reading other mafia games from before I came to here. In the start, someone almost always hints at roleclaiming but doesnt die. Not sure how that makes me a villain or a bad townie but anyways. Moving on:

Rolefishing is pretty much the lamest thing ever, and then trying to adamantly deny that you were rolefishing when there is pretty much no ifs, ands, ors, or buts about saying "Everyone roleclaim now, it'll be wonderful~" and then proceed to dish out the fundamentally useless vanilla townie roleclaim. In general, knowing all this happy fun information just gives the forces of evil something to work with, and I wish instead of denying that you took on this mindset that you'd explain the reasoning behind it.

I have explained up above.

As for the roleclaim. I see no reason for me to lie about my role, why should I? I am innocent and have no reason to lie. One thing is, I apologise for putting you people into a precarious position on whether or not you beleive me. Another is just a question:

What is WIFOM?

[Ranmilia]

Okay. Let me clear up a few things. I have been reading other mafia games from before I came to here.

What is WIFOM?

##Vote: Delta

Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?

[Sierra]

WIFOM stands for Wine In Front of Me. It's generally used to refer to any argument that leads to an unproductive logic loop and/or endless second guessing. For a perfect illustration of this phenomenon (and the inspiration for the term itself) watch The Princess Bride.

And there's a difference between hinting at roleclaiming and actually doing it. Plenty of people might seed their early posts with hints to support a roleclaim late in the game; these hints make sense in retrospect but aren't obvious at the time. This is often done so that the eventual roleclaim doesn't seem made up right on the spot. This is different from flat out claiming vanilla on the first page of a game. Rolefishing, bluntly looking for information on other players' roles, is another thing altogether, and something it's very difficult to make useful outside of games that are blatantly role heavy. This is where the problem is, in my opinion.

My opinion right now is that looking at the response to Delta's claim would be more productive than ganging up on Delta himself, though. So:

##Unvote: Delta

~

Muppy sez: Rolefishing makes for sad pands. Relax, don't do it!

[Luther Lansfeld]

Let the game begin. I for one think that we should roleclaim as well as jokevote.

It wasnt intended as rolefishing, and the claim was a jokevote... You know, same as you voted for carthrat? The roleclaim was simply because it is the truth. Why would you argue with a person who has made an action just the same as you disregarding the the roleclaim? Its almost as if you are trying to sow doubt already...

This does not explain why you want a roleclaim or why you think it would help us.

[Bardiche]

Delta claimed what he was doing wasn't intended as rolefishing when it seems obvious that it was. The two people mainly plugging the 'bad town' angle don't seem to have covered this, and I'd like them to (that's you, Alex, Bardiche)

I already said I thought he wasn't exactly sure what he was doing - that he might've mistakingly rolefished when he thought he was trying to get people to roleclaim. When I first began playing Mafia, I didn't know soliciting for people to roleclaim = rolefish.

I'm not going to lie and say, "We should lynch Delta because he's being really scummy" when I don't feel he's scummy and, instead, seems to have made a silly newbie mistake. Putting the ball back at Excal is similar to the games I played with him at another site, and it was commonly how it was played. I'll write that off as playstyle, and not scumtell.

I dislike Bard's playstyle.

;_;

[Deltaflyer]

This does not explain why you want a roleclaim or why you think it would help us.

Because usually (as I have read), people claim to be vanilla when they usually arent. Either A) Because it is the truth, B) To protect that they are scum or C) to protect them from scum.

The reason i did it is reason A).

Also, I do not know if you people have noticed but Corwin has not made a single post yet. Why lynch a townie who has something to say and can contribute when you can lynch a person who is lurking, not contributing and is really not an assistance at all. That is the reason for this:

##UNVOTE: BARDICHE
##VOTE: CORWIN

[Ranmilia]

Delta, are you reading the other posts in the thread?  What do you think of the debate surrounding you?  Why do you expect us to believe that you are telling the truth?

[Deltaflyer]

I dont expect you to, but i want you to. Because put it this way, Corwin is currently lurking. I can (and have) now contribute/contributed.

Also, soryy about my last post, the quotes sorta went... wrong

[Sierra]

Delta: Truth or no, coming out with a vanilla claim on day one is fundamentally unhelpful. There's just nothing we can do with that.

I've also noted Cor's absence. I think he said something in chat yesterday about work being a bitch this week, but I know that doesn't excuse anything. Trouble is, someone simply not being here gives us very little to work with. If we lynch someone for inactivity day one we learn considerably less than if we had lynched someone with more interaction on the record. So while you're right in pointing out that he hasn't posted, repeating this accomplishes little.

~

Muppy sez: Lack of editing also leads to sad pandas. And to typos. The Preview button is your friend, kids!

[Luther Lansfeld]

Well, honestly I think this debacle is... not worth thinking about too much. This being a scum tactic is really really bad but possibly pretty straightforward enough for a new player to do? Then again, I can see the mindset of why one would think getting his role out in the open is good, but the calling for mass claim Day 1 is really irksome.

Corwin... was actually on the board last night and didn't post? A little bit peculiar especially since I know Corwin doesn't post anywhere else. <_< Not going to get up in arms quite yet over it though.

Excal is making me very uncomfortable. I feel that he's trying to prod Delta into saying something that will get him lynched without putting his own ass into the fire. I feel like he is just skirting around making any remotely definitive statements (like his vaguely concurring with Rat about people being suspicious but not really putting any bite into his statement) and as a result I am suspicious of him. (although I understand completely the complaint about typing on cell phones.)

Alex seems to have foregone an epic switch with Delta’s bizarre questions. His first posts seem rather sulky but then he starts posting stuff with some meat. The thing that makes me suspicious about this is that he’s gone under fire for defending Delta and then quickly puts a vote in for him after another Delta post. I’m not sure if he’s doing it out of a genuine concern that Delta is just really bad scum or because he was drawing fire for the Delta issue.

Regardless I am comfortable with keeping my jokevote except that it’s not a jokevote anymore.

[Deltaflyer]

Okay. Let me clear up a few things. I have been reading other mafia games from before I came to here.

What is WIFOM?

##Vote: Delta

Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?

One thing, how does this make me scummy? You must surely be lynching me because you think I'm scum.

Also, one note, Corwin may be having trouble like getting home from work or stuff so im going to remove my vote for the time being.

##UNVOTE:CORWIN

[Sierra]

Ciato: It was something Cor said in one of the Soulriders chatrooms, actually. He's more active there. To the best of my knowledge, he doesn't use the DL board (or chatroom) for anything other than Mafia. Anyway, it was a casual remark on my part and shouldn't be taken as an explanation for anything, as I dislike using out-of-context statements to support theories within a game. His absence thus remains odd, but it's just something we can't make a case about either way.

I dunno, maybe his head exploded from all the ideas he couldn't fit into one post? He is fond of the ol' Wall of Text.

~

Muppy sez: ...Nah, I've got nothing this time.

[Laggy]

Excal (1): Ciato
Ciato (1): Soppy
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (3): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga
Bardiche (0): Delta
Corwin (0): Delta
Dread Thomas (1): Bardiche

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

It is 25 hours until deadline.

[Ranmilia]

I am having serious trouble believing anything about Delta.  I think it is impossible for him to be as well read as he claims, yet still not know what WIFOM is.  Every post he makes, he hurts town more and digs himself deeper into a hole of being the only possible lynch for today, while either remaining or pretending to remain completely oblivious.  If this were role heavy I would seriously suspect jester.

I am not particularly concerned about taking fire for him one way or another.  I am concerned that he is eclipsing everything today and I am very sad that such things happen.

That said,
##Unvote: Delta
##Vote: Corwin

Time zones are one thing, going up to the halfway mark of the day with no posts is quite another.  Ciato says he was on the boards last night, I see him in IRC today, and the mod says he's been informed that the game began.  I've been waiting for him to post this morning, but nothing seems forthcoming.  I consider this now a better lynch than anything relating to Delta.

I somewhat agree with Ciato's thoughts on Excal, but... Delta issue.

[Bardiche]

... Wait, what, Alex? Uuuuh, okay, so first you say Delta reads as townie to you... Then you switch to saying, "
Do you understand why you are making it nearly impossible for us not to lynch you?" and vote for him... Then you withdraw that vote, saying you "am having serious trouble believing anything about Delta" and "he hurts town more and digs himself deeper into a hole" and then prioritize pushing for lynching Corwin ("I consider this a better lynch") rather than Delta.

Seriously, what the hell? I'm having trouble following you here, can you explain this in a way a kindergartener would understand? LAL is certainly one way to go, but based off of less than 24 hours and an apparent supposition that signing on to IRC equals being active and having time to sit down and compose Mafia posts, I find a Corwin lynch to be in poor taste at this point.

##UNVOTE: EvilTom

##VOTE: Alex

Please explain to me your train of thought herein.

[Ranmilia]

I will attempt to do so in the form of a reenactment.

Delta:  "Antitown things.  Please lynch me."
People:  "Delta is saying antitown things, let's lynch him."
Me:  "That's really dumb, so much that scum wouldn't do it.  Let's dismiss it and drop the issue before it dominates the day."
People:  "Blah blah Delta Delta Delta"
Delta: "I'm not bothering to read most of what's going on and I don't understand what people are saying about me.  I've read lots of games, I promise, but what's WIFOM?"
Me: "ASFFSGFHGSFHG fine, frustration vote, just die already, you're still probably not scum but if you're going to act that way it's pointless to even try to push any other lynch, leaving you alive will just bite town in the rear later on.  I don't believe this."
Delta:  "Look guys I'm talking that means I'm contributing right?"
Everyone:  "Delta Delta Delta Alex and Excal in relation to Delta"
Corwin:  "La de de de da, 23 hours and I haven't said anything, 24, 25...."
Me:  "You know what, crazy as he is Delta has a point.  The rules do call for vociferous participation in this game.  Where is Corwin."

[Kilgamayan]

In the spirit of being succinct:

That "said", I don't look down upon the "hey let's mass roleclaim!" too much, as it smacks more of "hurr durr" than "hey imma trix town hehe".

No offense, of course.

##Vote: Corwin for being too succinct.

[Laggy]

I would like to state at this point that the rules DO call for fairly active participation given the nature of the game and asking for one post in a period of 24 hours (half the day) isn't anything close to outlandish, when posts are barely a couple of paragraphs at best. Given Day 1, I will extend some leniency in this manner, but it treads dangerous territory and I will definitely be more demanding on participation after this.

Corwin will be modkilled if he does not post before the scheduled end of the day.

[Excal]

Ciato, I wasn't aware that I usually put a lot of bite into my statements, especially on Day 1.  You may think I was trying to bait Delta, but all I really wanted was exactly the answers that Alex managed to dig out of him.  As for the lack of vote, I was never fully convinced he was scum just by his action.  There's been too many things that've ridden the line between scummy and bad town here to want to jump before having an idea which is which.

As for Corwin, Cyril has just killed any desire I had to vote for him.  So...  I guess it's time to start looking at other suspects.

[Deltaflyer]

Well, you already know my vote at the moment.

[Ranmilia]

No... no, Delta, we don't.  You unvoted, giving a decent reason for it, and other people are unvoting Corwin for other reasons as well now.  The wagon on him is gone, so to speak (if there ever was one). 

Who do you think is scum?

I do not like a lot of people at this point.  Ciato/Excal is complicated.  I remain not a fan of how Bard rolls.  Kilga's latest post is too succinct.  It is day 1 and I do not have any degree of comfort on any of them at this time.

[Deltaflyer]

Eh? Oh yea, when i posted my vote, the internet went weird and collapsed... sorry about that.

Im actually suspicious of you at the moment, Alex, but I cant put my finger on it. You just changed your story 3 times. Also, some other people havent posted for a while. Ill bide my time for the moment.

[Laggy]

Excal (1): Ciato
Ciato (1): Soppy
El Cid (0):
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (1): Excal
Delta (2): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (0): Delta
Corwin (2): Delta, Alex, Kilga
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Kilga, please unvote before voting, thanks. (Let it slide this time, but for future reference.)

[Bardiche]

And here we are, at a blank spot. Well, we still have Delta who, to some apparently, pings as scummy/not useful, but to me, I still remain pretty convinced it's just the way a clueless newbie would act. Those grounds are not enough for me to want to eliminate him.

We don't have any real grounds for anything, really - I'm thankful to Delta for pushing this game out of the joke vote phase immediately and wasting no time with jokevoting and the accompanying banter, but if I take Laggy's post for what it is, we've already lost an entire day (24h) of discussion and have advanced to...

Delta is urgh, his playstyle is a bit unconventional.
Excal attacked Delta, but has explained that he did not feel he was attacking at all and didn't find Delta worth pursuing a lynch for.
Alex has that weird jump on Delta so early on in the game, especially considering his jump off Delta almost immediately afterwards to jump on Corwin.

Delta's... As explained above.
I'm wary of Alex for jumpiness. Like he's trying to run some early Day 1 trains. Prodding on the Delta train first, then conveniently jumping off that when no one gives backing and starting what seems to be a Corwin train? Bit too jumpy to me.
Excal's not entirely off my hook.
Kilga needs to post more.

Carth, now... Seems to prod people to get on Delta's case, saying anyone that's not on Delta's weird antics in his first (I think...?) post, which comes down to, "Anyone who doesn't talk about Delta's weird antics is weird by extension and should talk about it." and then "Delta's guardians are questionable now."

To me, that seems a bit iff, because it's like saying, "Everyone should acknowledge Delta's weird antics, or you are suspicious. If you pass those off as not being lynch worthy, you are suspicious. You should all agree he is weird and condemn him for it."

Am I reading this wrong, Rat?

[Deltaflyer]

Can i just say? The vote count is wrong, Kilga's last vote as far as i see was for Corwin, Not myself.