Succinct Mafia - Game over

[Carthrat]

-He's posting like a crazy, careless maniac.
-He's not actually reading posts in this thread (or even counting them correctly) if his own responses tell me anything.
-Despite apparently having thoughts on things, he's not putting his foot down on anything, especially this late in the day.

Delta's made bad calls at the start of the game with regard to claiming and his supposed knowledge of the game. I don't believe he can possibly claim to be well-read and play the same way he does.

His commentary and insight have been on patently ridiculous things. His counterattacks against what's been put before him fail miserably (look at what he says about me and you in his last post, for crying out loud.)

He has virtually never commented on the game in any meaningful sense, instead making generic statements that target nobody. His last post is an exception, but it contains errors and judgements that are too far from my own for me to believe.

I'm going after Cid because I feel he's been hanging back on the sidelines, not really coming forward to make a solid case, as well as subtly encourage others down paths of thought he himself doesn't seem to traverse. Delta has done similar things in presenting scenarios and apparently inviting the rest of us to make judgements on them without taking any clear stand himself.

My desire to lynch him is borne from is a kneejerk response to the way he posts, I will grant, and I'm not without hestitation here afterwards. But I've read his stuff and I can't believe he's attempting to scumhunt. Combine with my above thoughts, I'm lead to my decision.

I'd like to turn this around on you. Why should I drop the vote on Delta?

[Laggy]

Excal (2): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (1): Soppy, Rat
Soppy (0):
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (3): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (2): Delta, Alex, Excal
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[EvilTom]

Well I can't be accused of misrepresentation and not back up my facts with EVIDENCE. That would be un-lawyer-like of me.

Assertion: El Cid has posted little of substance.

Detail: He has only explained Game Mechanics (WIFOM, Why Roleclaiming Is Bad), and Corwin's absence from the game.

POSTS:
#1: joke vote
#2: more jokes
#3: WIFOM explanation, Gameplay Mechanic explanation about Roleclaiming.
#4: More explanation  about why roleclaims are unhelpful. Talk about how Cor is absent.
#5:  Talk about how Cor was in a chat room.
#6: Suggestion to retract Corwin votes. Asks for elaboration from Alex re: Bard’s playstyle.
#7: Two lines of comment on something Kilga said. Then says he needs to think more about Alex & re-read Bard’s posts.
#8: Looks like he’s saying things, but really he isn’t. Points people to his other posts. Asks Kilga about # of players.
#9 – most recent


I'll give you posts #1 and #2 for free.
Post #3 was game mechanics.
Post #4 was more game mechanics, and about how Corwin was absent. Corwin's absence is nothing more than an observation of a game mechanic (because it could never be used to root out scum).
Posts #5 and #6 continue talking about how Corwin is absent.
Slight content at the end of #6, but not major.

So, posts #4-#6 are fluff.
I'll give you post #7, that has content. Though it completely ignores most of the hot topics of the day.

Post #8 goes back to fluff.

And here we are at post 9, which I will not include (as it came after my assertion).

Conclusion: 1/5 of your posts contributed to the game in a meaningful way. That means 80% fluff. This is not including your first two posts.

Recommendation: I support a Cid lynch as a Delta alternative.

300!

Fuck triple ninja'd. Will post, read, re-post.
Fuck, re-ninja'd.

[Ranmilia]

Small text had no real content anyhow.  Lighten up.

Ciato has only voted once, but her vote is serious and she's been talking about it and attempting to build a case.  Cid's stuck to Delta, my honey-covered giblet of manturkey, and I can't help but see it as a little less in the effort department and a little more at odds with what he'sbeen saying in your posts.  Tom you have a point on, but - it's Tom.  Lynching him is only slightly more productive than lynching Delta.  I haven't seen what I'd say is ScumTom so far.

Cid is right in that I'd like to lynch Ciato, Bard, Tom, Delta and some others right off the bat every game for how they tend to play, but that is a discussion for another time and place.  Bard's style only became a real, votable issue in this game for me when he started using it to misstate facts, not present any original content and not justify his votes.

Also the rules in this particular game call for active participation, which makes me want to insta-lynch anyone using the "I don't live for Mafia and won't be posting much" defense.  It's never an excuse for lack of voting, and that goes triple for this game.

Rat:  You should drop the vote on Delta because unless the scumteam is Corwin/Delta, Scum Delta would have a partner advising him and his behavior is just not consistent with that.  

##Unvote: Bard
##Vote: Cid

[EvilTom]

Maybe because I know him on a personal level and don't see him as crafty. Last game he didn't last to Day 2; I at least want to grant him that enjoyment this time around.

That's a really really really bad motivation for this game. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. That will come back and bite you later, if it doesn't do so right now.



..ok there's not really anything new there for me to comment on, despite getting ninja'd like crazy. I guess it's to be expected when I spent ages doing analysis posts.


---

I'm going to bed in 10 minutes, unless I see votes slide over to Cid then I'm leaving my vote on Delta. it's 3 to 1, so I don't see that happening. Bardiche votes are actually out-weighing Cid votes now.
But maybe people will change their minds after they see that Cid really only talked about game mechanics and about how Corwin hadn't said anything? Who can say. 7 minutes~



PS. that dash near the end of my previous post was actually the word '300' in ultra small font XD

Ninja'd by Alex, who does exactly that. Jumps to Cid. Well I'll be.

[Bardiche]

Maybe because I know him on a personal level and don't see him as crafty. Last game he didn't last to Day 2; I at least want to grant him that enjoyment this time around.

That's a really really really bad motivation for this game. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. That will come back and bite you later, if it doesn't do so right now.

I don't mind getting lynched for wanting to have a friend enjoy the game. I'll be very clear on this.

Alex! Sorry you feel misrepresented, it's how I interpret your posts. I have no clue who of you guys to trust, so forgive me if I assume lies and deceptive tactics from everyone and view your posts as such.

Alex makes a good comment in regards to Delta's "innocence", for as far as you are willing to believe it. If he was scum, scumbuddy/ies would advise him, or they'd be leaving him to die here. It further supports my belief that Delta isn't crafty enough to be laying such deep traps in his posts that none of us can really see it. He's just being oblivious.

How much time left, mod?

[Hunter Sopko]

Alex, care to quantify your vote on Cid?

[EvilTom]

but - it's Tom.  Lynching him is only slightly more productive than lynching Delta.  I haven't seen what I'd say is ScumTom so far....
 ...I'd like to lynch Ciato, Bard, Tom, Delta and some others right off the bat every game for how they tend to play....

So very mean ;-;

Good point about Delta's scum partner, but there's always the possibility of just plain bad advice (or more likely, poor execution of the advice). Or just not listening to advice. But considering we had a night 0 (which I only just remembered), a more well-behaved scum Delta is likely.

Rat, I'd like to know your opinion (if it's changed) on Cid vs Delta please. If I don't hear it soon, I'm leaving my vote on Delta & going to sleep for the rest of the mafia day.

[Ranmilia]

Throughout the game Cid has commented on cases in a theoretical sense and given the illusion of being an active participant, but has not actually taken any positions of his own, except against Delta, whom I view as very, ah, "sexy" town handing himself out as a mislynch on a platter.  In contrast to Rat, who has explained his logical reasons for pushing Delta all along and taken other positions, Cid has just quietly left his vote on Delta all game until now.  

Cid's last two posts are entirely defensive and make use of several tactics I find questionable, including the "I don't have time" excuse and saying that Delta's lynch would be informative.  (It wouldn't, he's playing so erotically either way.)

PS:  Sandbag is an item in Brawl, not a good gaming technique.  

[Sierra]

Cid is right in that I'd like to lynch Ciato, Bard, Tom, Delta and some others right off the bat every game for how they tend to play, but that is a discussion for another time and place.

On the contrary, I think it's wholly relevant if there's a possibility that this tendency is unduly influencing your vote.

I'll also note that your assertion that a scum Delta would have a colleague telling him what to do to be misguided at best. Sometimes scum don't collaborate well, sometimes they fuck up, sometimes they just don't talk at all. Making assumptions about scum behavior is dangerous.

Tom: That's better! Still disagree with you about how much of my posts are fluff, but that breakdown is a damn sight better than just saying "He's only talked about WIFOM," which was blatantly not true. Also, I consider it an obligation to answer any basic Mafia questions a new player asks promptly and as comprehensively as I can, and dislike seeing this used against me.

Muppy edit: Ninja'd. Will read in a sec.

[Sierra]

Cid's last two posts are entirely defensive and make use of several tactics I find questionable, including the "I don't have time" excuse and saying that Delta's lynch would be informative.  (It wouldn't, he's playing so erotically either way.)

God forbid I should respond when someone accuses me of something. And you know what? I'm not going to apologize for not living on the damned board. Not everyone's as hardcore as you, Alex. You need to deal with it and move on.

[Hunter Sopko]

Cid's last two posts are entirely defensive and make use of several tactics I find questionable, including the "I don't have time" excuse and saying that Delta's lynch would be informative.  (It wouldn't, he's playing so erotically either way.)

God forbid I should respond when someone accuses me of something. And you know what? I'm not going to apologize for not living on the damned board. Not everyone's as hardcore as you, Alex. You need to deal with it and move on.

Personal attack. My vote is absolutely sealed.

[Sierra]

Frankly, Soppy, I consider it a astatement of fact. I've seen him pursue suspects like this in multiple games: press the player until they crack, then assume they're scum because they cracked. It never, ever gets results. All it does is piss off other townies. It's been my experience in nearly every game that town are vastly more likely to react to pressure by stressing out than are scum, which makes the entire attitude counter productive.

[Hunter Sopko]

I know, but it's also true that there are better ways to react than to resort to what you did. It's not like he's been dogging you an entire game of multiple days, nor has he been the only one pressing you, or been the one pressing you the most. Cracking like that Day 1 is just... yeah, and personal attacks are more counter-productive.

[Sierra]

Also, calling someone "hardcore" doesn't constitute a personal attack in my eyes. It actually wouldn't surprise me at all if Alex agreed with that assessment, and the fact that you jumped on it so quickly as a justification for your vote when your comments on me prior to that had been very thin indeed is quite suspicious. Enough so that I'd switch my vote if I thought there was a realistic chance of building support prior to deadline.

[Carthrat]

Bardiche's attitude on the game is silly, you don't let people live only because you want them to enjoy the game. I don't think anyone is really thinking Delta is the most devious snake in the urn, either.

I can understand the point about him not having a scum partner. I'm surprised, however, that Alex didn't mention it until now, given his comments about Delta taking place way earlier. I also don't necessarily think a partner would help him out all that much, especially with potential timezone difference preventing real-time aid.

I don't like being pressured to make up Tom's mind (and that's dangerous for him to do, seeing as he doesn't know my alignment. Don't give others direct control over your vote like that!)

I'm very tentatively switching to Cid. I'm willing to entertain that Delta could've played better with a partner, as well as that his play may not be malicious in nature (as it was certainly very clumsy if so.) I, too, haven't liked Cid's latest responses (there were a number of other possible trains floating around, i.e. Bard and Excal, yet no mention of them when he jumps to Delta. If he's voting to save his skin, I'd like to think he's looked at the other possibilities.)

##Unvote, ##Vote Cid

Ninja'd. If Cid is aware of Alex's modus operandi, why does he post like he's played right into it? And on the other hand, well, I agree with Soppy, Alex has not been as forceful or hyperaggressive as I've seen him elsewhere, so this feels kinda made up to me.

[Ranmilia]

Uh, wow, except I'm totally not doing that this game.  If you think this is me pressuring you, Cid... I don't know what to say.  It's not.  I pressured Bard, a bit, and he actually responded kinda well.  You, I'm being more passive than I probably should, and mainly agreeing with the case Sopko put out - which you seem to have ignored entirely in favor of attacking me and painting yourself, quite unwarranted, as a victim of the big bad Alex.  While now coming in and saying "I'm stressing out so I'm townie mmkay?"  I have to say that does give me pause as well, but out of all the reactions in this game so far, this one looks the most fake.

Who do you think is scum?

Rat:  I didn't mention it before because I thought it was obvious to the point of being self-explanatory.  And even without a partner, I have a hard time seeing anyone be as gorgeous a hunk of a man as Delta has if they were scum.

[EvilTom]

Rat: I'm switching my vote to Cid not because I think that you're right, but because we only have about 4 hours left and I can't accept the risk of not getting a lynch due to running out of time.
Delta was my #1 target, El Cid was my #2. If I don't switch my vote from Delta to El Cid then there is a real danger of town missing out on its lynch.
I had already decided that if numbers were to swing towards El Cid over Delta, I would support it.
It's all in the numbers. As such, recent events between Alex & El Cid have not been factored into this vote change. I wouldn't know how to judge it anyway.

##UnVote: Delta
##Vote: Cid

Cid is (probably) at -1. I suggest roleclaims etc. Beware accidental hammer, there will be no forgiveness.

Ps. Sorry Cid, if you are town.

Bed time! Long overdue..

[Sierra]

Ninja'd. If Cid is aware of Alex's modus operandi, why does he post like he's played right into it? And on the other hand, well, I agree with Soppy, Alex has not been as forceful or hyperaggressive as I've seen him elsewhere, so this feels kinda made up to me.

Case on Bard hinges on the same old newbie playstyle differences that I'm sick to death of. I don't see any point in pursuing him right now. I'm also satisfied with Excal's contributions and don't consider him suspicious (I've even said that before, Rat).

As for the bolded sentence, knowing about this tendency won't suddenly make it not be irritating. Consider it the latest episode in an ongoing, multigame dialogue between the two of us which is typically acrimonious. If I'd really flipped out, there would've been an OMGUS vote to show for it, and then you'd really be justified in going after me.

Speaking of votes:

##Unvote: Delta
##Vote: Hunter Sopko

I know it's late in the day to be changing, but him leaping on one remark with very little in the way of contribution beforehand looks very much like scum trying to take advantage of a misunderstanding to hammer a townie.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Sorry guys but today I am extremely busy. I can't really read what has gone on the in the last 10~ or so hours much but I will check in about 12:30 (CST, so about an hour from lynch?) to make sure we get a lynch. I will hammer or do whatever to make sure we get something productive done today, but gotta go now.

[Sierra]

Uh, wow, except I'm totally not doing that this game.  If you think this is me pressuring you, Cid... I don't know what to say.  It's not.  I pressured Bard, a bit, and he actually responded kinda well.  You, I'm being more passive than I probably should, and mainly agreeing with the case Sopko put out - which you seem to have ignored entirely in favor of attacking me and painting yourself, quite unwarranted, as a victim of the big bad Alex.  While now coming in and saying "I'm stressing out so I'm townie mmkay?"  I have to say that does give me pause as well, but out of all the reactions in this game so far, this one looks the most fake.

I don't actually consider this stressing out. I consider it criticizing a playstyle I find highly questionable. But that's neither here and there and my general distaste for your tactics may be coloring things (it wouldn't be the first time). However, it was mainly this quote that bothere me:

Also the rules in this particular game call for active participation, which makes me want to insta-lynch anyone using the "I don't live for Mafia and won't be posting much" defense.  It's never an excuse for lack of voting, and that goes triple for this game.

It seemed to suggest that total commitment to Mafia is the only acceptable M.O., and I find this quite unreasonable.

Who do you think is scum?

It's day one. I'm not convinced of anyone's scumminess, and taking such a stance this early in the game would be ludicrous. However, I'm increasingly of the opinion that Soppy is a good candidate. To wit, his "case" on me which you criticize me for not responding to:

A) The initial post is here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31461;topic=1900.50;num_replies=118;sesc=f444112eb6e1ab2b08dd422048062370 (and I did respond to that, here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31482;topic=1900.50;num_replies=118;sesc=f444112eb6e1ab2b08dd422048062370).

B) Past that, his only support is here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31526;topic=1900.75;num_replies=118;sesc=f444112eb6e1ab2b08dd422048062370, and even that is little more than a Talk Moar jab. This is all he's had to say about me (and frankly, I think I've posted plenty), which makes him recently leaping one remark and acting as though it's faultless proof of scumminess look...opportunistic, shall we say.

As for roleclaim? I'm vanilla. Shock, awe.

[Deltaflyer]

Er... can i just say something out-of-game for a second?

Alex, please stop saying that you love me. You do not know me or anything. I am actually 13 and seeing that sort of stuff is just... weird and disconcerting.

Back in-game.

Bardiche's attitude on the game is silly, you don't let people live only because you want them to enjoy the game. I don't think anyone is really thinking Delta is the most devious snake in the urn, either.

Bard simply wants me to be able to really play, is that a crime?

I can understand the point about him not having a scum partner. I'm surprised, however, that Alex didn't mention it until now, given his comments about Delta taking place way earlier. I also don't necessarily think a partner would help him out all that much, especially with potential timezone difference preventing real-time aid.

I dont have a scum partner because, quite simply, I am not scum. Believe it or not, its the truth.

[Sierra]

Er... can i just say something out-of-game for a second?

Alex, please stop saying that you love me. You do not know me or anything. I am actually 13 and seeing that sort of stuff is just... weird and disconcerting.

As an aside, this made me laugh out loud. Thanks, I needed that.

Bardiche's attitude on the game is silly, you don't let people live only because you want them to enjoy the game. I don't think anyone is really thinking Delta is the most devious snake in the urn, either.

Bard simply wants me to be able to really play, is that a crime?

It's not Playing to Win, but I have to admit that I sympathize here. With the caveat, of course, that Bard really should vote Delta if he thought he was scum (but I'd hope that goes without saying).

[Ranmilia]

By "this particular game" I really did mean this particular game, not Mafia in general.  I was referencing this:

Be civil. Be active. Very important. Since your word count isn't going to be that high, your content and your punctuality to the game will presumably make up for it. With days clocking at 48 hours, I'd say you're expected to view and respond to the thread and current happenings at least three times a day, preferably more.

With the mod having put that in the rules, I think it is in very poor taste to claim time excuses in this specific game.

Delta:  It is a joke (and a bit of me trying not to break certain other rules.)  Please do not take it seriously.

[Deltaflyer]

I know (read: Pray to god) that it was a joke but if you could please stop it since i dont find it funny to be honest. Thank you.