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Author Topic: Succinct Mafia - Game over  (Read 45215 times)

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #125 on: September 03, 2008, 04:41:00 PM »
By "this particular game" I really did mean this particular game, not Mafia in general.  I was referencing this:

Be civil. Be active. Very important. Since your word count isn't going to be that high, your content and your punctuality to the game will presumably make up for it. With days clocking at 48 hours, I'd say you're expected to view and respond to the thread and current happenings at least three times a day, preferably more.

With the mod having put that in the rules, I think it is in very poor taste to claim time excuses in this specific game.

I still think you're applying this with a zeal that is uncalled for. I think I've been sufficiently active in this game and it's quite bothersome to get so much flak for not immediately responding to someone.

Of course, if I was to be totally frank, I'd say that playing Growlanser 5 was more attractive than typing another post at that point in time, and I felt I was in decent shape anyway since I'd already posted a couple times that evening. But I doubt that would help much. The attitude I'm getting from you here, Alex, is that I have no excuse to do anything other than make Mafia posts if I'm at home and conscious. You can see why I find this problematic, I hope?

Anyway, since you asked, and I since I answered: what do you think about Soppy? Personally, I find his presence very light; this might be Succinct Mafia, but he seems to restrict himself to one-liners.

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #126 on: September 03, 2008, 04:44:47 PM »
Re: Delta

I'd vote him if I thought him to be scum. I don't think it to be so.

Re: Day 1

So... We somehow have steered off a Delta train and commenced on a Cid train. The Cid case is as wonky willy as any Day 1 case, but it's not altogether unwarranted. Cid has been laying low and making only some off remarks, which I fully agree with EvilTom on. I also concur with Cid's point that Sopko is being succinct as well. Frankly, it feels like town getting their last thoughts out... Because I can't see the profit in scum at pointing at another and claiming them scum, since there's a high chance most everyone will disregard it/doubt the truthfulness.

I stand by my case against Alex. I also second Sopko's request of Alex to explain why he voted Cid, because it's almost looking like more of the wishy washy jumpiness I observed (or think to observe) earlier.

Not willing to hammer Cid - Frankly, I don't think right now that that is the best course of action. We still have some time left.

Ranmilia

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #127 on: September 03, 2008, 04:48:51 PM »
I see why you find it problematic.  I don't see why you're getting that vibe from me, I don't think you should get it just from my saying "Don't throw time excuses around" but oh well.

Soppy is pretty low on my list, actually near lowest, because he presented an unusual case that, on review, I agreed with and found very helpful.  I think he put it very well to say that you were lurking in plain sight, and had he not posted that, I possibly wouldn't have ever noticed.  While his presence has been low, his contribution has been one of the most important of the day and shows good, close reading on his part.  In attempting to pick up your viewpoint and visualize Soppy as scum and Cid as town, I cannot see why Soppy would choose Cid to go after in the manner he did.



Ranmilia

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2008, 04:50:27 PM »
Ninja Mafia edit - Bard, I explained immediately, two posts below where Sopko asked.

Bardiche

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2008, 04:52:48 PM »
... Wow, this is succinct mafia, how did I miss it? Yeah, that was pretty stupid on my behalf. Scrolled over it, no excuse, etc.

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2008, 04:57:38 PM »
I see why you find it problematic.  I don't see why you're getting that vibe from me, I don't think you should get it just from my saying "Don't throw time excuses around" but oh well.

Soppy is pretty low on my list, actually near lowest, because he presented an unusual case that, on review, I agreed with and found very helpful.  I think he put it very well to say that you were lurking in plain sight, and had he not posted that, I possibly wouldn't have ever noticed.  While his presence has been low, his contribution has been one of the most important of the day and shows good, close reading on his part.  In attempting to pick up your viewpoint and visualize Soppy as scum and Cid as town, I cannot see why Soppy would choose Cid to go after in the manner he did.

Bolding mine. "One of the most important of the day?" Is it really? How can you be so sure of that when you don't know my alignment? You're approaching the entire subject assuming that I'm scum. This is terribly circular logic, Alex, and is especially bad for day one. You really can't see why scum would take advantage of something that could be misconstrued as a breach of conduct in order to safely lynch a townie? And I'll reiterate that this is the only argument Sopko's pushed all day.

Ranmilia

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2008, 05:13:28 PM »
No, I'm not assuming you're scum.  I'm not even anywhere near 50% confidence in you being scum.  It's day 1.  All day 1 cases are by definition bad, with extremely rare exceptions.  Just higher than everyone else right now.  I'm saying that even if you're town, it was a valuable contribution on his part because it is a valid case and shows he was reading the thread and paying attention to things beyond Delta and various Delta fallout (which, while not unimportant, are less important to me than non-Delta cases). 


And I too will reiterate how strange it is that you are continually talking to and responding to and pressing on me, rather than Sopko himself.  Why does he need another argument when it's day 1, the one he's got is really pretty good, and nothing else is on the table except Delta and a bit of spatting with Bard and Excal (mostly over Delta)?

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2008, 05:19:32 PM »
And I too will reiterate how strange it is that you are continually talking to and responding to and pressing on me, rather than Sopko himself.  Why does he need another argument when it's day 1, the one he's got is really pretty good, and nothing else is on the table except Delta and a bit of spatting with Bard and Excal (mostly over Delta)?

The explanation for the first point is quite simple: you're responding, Soppy is not. He made his comment about me making a personal attack, then vanished and left us to deal with the fallout. This is emblematic of how he's played the whole game. In retrospect, it amuses me greatly that I got so much heat for not responding to something promptly last night and saying in response that I'd basically had enough Mafia for the day...yet Sopko had a 24-hour absence between pages one and three and had only this to say when he returned:

Could make excuses, but won't.

I'm not sure what lesson I should draw from this. Don't try to make explanations for your absence and no one will notice you were gone?

Laggy

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2008, 05:37:21 PM »
Excal (2): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (4): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas
Soppy (1): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (1): Delta, Alex, Excal
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Guys, try to keep it civil. I will say that El Cid is not (and has never been) in any danger of a modkill from inactivity from all that I've seen. El Cid: I understand your frustration, but I don't think that Alex's comment was ever meant to be a slight against your activity in particular so much as it is not liking seeing time excuses in general used as a defense, s'all.

Deadline is roughly one and a half hours.
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Ranmilia

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2008, 05:43:16 PM »
What Laggy said.  I prefer people to be straightforward and give no excuses, which I freely admit also makes me favor Soppy over Cid here.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2008, 05:56:43 PM »
Bloody hell. Why do you people post so much while I sleep?

I'll spend time on responding to people talking about my posts on Day 2. Now's not the time.

Between Sopko's "active lurking" accusation, the assertion that Delta would be the most informative lynch today (when, in fact, he'd probably be the least) and the aggravation over being called on not posting (look at Sopko and myself - we got called on it, understood why, and it ended up not being a problem), I'm fine with a Cid lynch today.

##Unvote: Excal
##Vote: El Cideon


That's L-1.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2008, 06:03:12 PM »
I COULD have said that I was still in the process of moving, still didn't have constant internet access and working 9 hours a day Monday into Tuesday, but would it have honestly mattered? It's an excuse. It shouldn't really matter what I said, but I acknowledged the absence instead of trying to hide it.

To be honest though, this whole exchange has brought me full-circle on Alex. Day 1 or not, I can't say my position is utterly defensible, though I choose to stick with it. He's been oddly defensive of other people. I'm going to attribute this to just a change in playstyle, but just wanted it known.

Kilga: At least it takes about five or so minutes to check over multiple pages of posts! Best. Mafia. Ever.

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2008, 06:04:33 PM »
With an hour and a half left, I don't see much chance of turning things around here. Going to check out for a bit, so it seems prudent to leave some final comments before doing so. I don't expect to be alive when I get back. It'd be great if I was wrong about that, but it seems unlikely. The first person to denounce this as defeatism or scum giving up gets hit with my shiny, new Muppy Brand Orbital Death Laser. Seriously, I'm at minus one to hammer with a deadline looming. Has anyone ever talked their way out of a situation like this? Even if people had doubts, it's too late in the day to build another train. Besides, I've been trying to claw my way out of the hole for the past four hours with little noticeable improvement. Anything I could try, I have done.

Alex: You may say you're not convinced, but you know what? I've responded to questions when asked, defended myself when necessary, pointed out someone else I find suspicious (who has yet to respond to any of my criticisms), and interacted with or commented on nearly everyone by this point. If there was anything I could've done to change your mind, it would've happened by now. I can only conclude that you're either not willing to consider alternatives or scum just wanting to see me hang. Pity I have such trouble discerning which is which.

Also, it was never my intention to "make excuses." It's in my nature to explain things and try to provide people with a better understanding of my actions. It's unfortunate that you hold this against me, Alex, but we do seem to hail from different dimensions.

~

Highly suggest that you all lynch Sopko tomorrow if he doesn't provide something substantial on day two. He's done very little today, despite Alex's confidence to the contrary. Sopko has primarily cruised under the radar, made one comment that happened to get the attention of one of the board's most prolific posters, and sat back to let the rest of the group do his dirty work ever since.

I'm looking at Ciato, too. She is notably reserved as scum (metagaming, but I think it's a valid observation that she's less comfortable playing non-Town). I believe she made some solid arguments early on in the game, but has been laggardly in the last day or so. Her announcement that she'll be away doesn't necessarily help matters. As it has been said, legitimate excuses are great for scum.

I'm increasingly less suspicious of Delta, ironically. I have nothing substantial to back this up, though; it's just a gut reaction to recent happenings, and my instincts are notoriously unreliable.

I'll stick around for 5-10 minutes if anyone has any last-minute questions.

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2008, 06:09:10 PM »
Between Sopko's "active lurking" accusation, the assertion that Delta would be the most informative lynch today (when, in fact, he'd probably be the least) and the aggravation over being called on not posting (look at Sopko and myself - we got called on it, understood why, and it ended up not being a problem), I'm fine with a Cid lynch today.

Perhaps you misunderstand. I don't believe I was lurking, which is why the whole matter bothered me.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #139 on: September 03, 2008, 06:10:06 PM »
Oh. I also don't believe I've ever said you were lurking or absent, Cid. I implied you were being evasive in that first post, but not absent.

Ranmilia

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2008, 06:12:21 PM »
*Now* discussion comes?  Cid, this is why I've been voting you, this is the sort of stuff you would've done better to post, like, a day ago.  Instead of sticking to Delta and what looked like an OMGUS-based "Look at Soppy!" cry until an hour before deadline.  Argh.  Thinking.

I hate how every game it feels like I'm being crucified simply for being vocal, by whoever I vote on and all the people going "Look, he's voting and talking!"  

At this point I have no clue what to think of Cid's post.  Nor of Soppy's. 

Kilgamayan

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2008, 06:13:25 PM »
Kilga: At least it takes about five or so minutes to check over multiple pages of posts! Best. Mafia. Ever.

I read slowly and have no attention span whatsoever. It takes me at least 10 minutes just to read one page, and half the time I miss several important things that require me to go back and re-read that page.

Before that post, I had spent the better part of 45 minutes going through everything that I had missed, and time was rapidly becoming an issue, so I felt it more prudent to make sure we lynched someone (it helped that it was a lynch I agreed with, based on general mental summaries of what I had read) than to go over every post again to see what else I invariably missed and end up not contributing.

The one other thing I got out catching up was a suspicion of Alex for the mancrush on Delta. If it were a one-liner throwaway gag I would've done just that, but he kept it up for a while, and, for the life of me, I have no clue why (I don't believe the "I was just kidding around" excuse because joking around phase ended a while ago; anyone that harps on something at this stage in the game is doing it for a reason).

It doesn't help that I'm distracted by the fact that I could very well have blown a new job opportunity by sleeping in today.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2008, 06:15:50 PM »
I hate how every game it feels like I'm being crucified simply for being vocal, by whoever I vote on and all the people going "Look, he's voting and talking!" 

At this point I have no clue what to think of Cid's post.  Nor of Soppy's. 

I know that, Al. I was hesitant to share my thoughts on it due to that. But that's not going to stop me.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2008, 06:16:00 PM »
Perhaps you misunderstand. I don't believe I was lurking, which is why the whole matter bothered me.

You certainly weren't Corwin, and no one is accusing you of that. It was more that you weren't saying a whole lot of anything.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2008, 06:18:52 PM »
Ah. The whole "did not respond to Rat" thing implied a certain inattention on my part which I felt to be misguided. For the record, whenever I hit the Preview button, I tend to only skim any posts made while I was writing (I do at least make sure that the hammer hasn't fallen, at least!) and then read the new ones afterwards. If anything there changes my mind, I'll make a new post for that. Primarily, this because I type so slowly in the first place that I'd never get anything down on the record if I stopped every time a new post showed up (or risk have my original post made obsolete by the constant delays--I also like to have my thought processes out in the open for posterity).

Muppy edit: To wit, four new replies! I'm not dead yet, so I'll read those in a sec.

Sierra

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2008, 06:21:08 PM »
*Now* discussion comes?  Cid, this is why I've been voting you, this is the sort of stuff you would've done better to post, like, a day ago.  Instead of sticking to Delta and what looked like an OMGUS-based "Look at Soppy!" cry until an hour before deadline.  Argh.  Thinking.

C'mon, Alex. I mentioned Soppy several times prior to my ersatz Farewell post, starting with when he first called me out for making a "personal attack."

Ranmilia

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #146 on: September 03, 2008, 06:24:14 PM »
"Did not respond to X post" is really not a good reason to vote someone unless X post is calling them out on a truly major issue.  Content is what matters.

Where is Bard and how do people feel about him?  I am still a little weirded out by how his construction of the early delta stuff was just glossed over by everyone.  Am I the only one who thinks it was odd?

Cid, I know that, I was including your case on him in the things you had done before deadline (and was writing it off as bad, yes.  I would call this more "giving my thoughts on other people" and "participating in discussion" than "being overly defensive of others" but to each his own.) 

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2008, 06:26:35 PM »
Not willing to hammer Cid - Frankly, I don't think right now that that is the best course of action. We still have some time left.

So what the hell should we do, exactly? There is one hour left. We can lynch Cid, we can lynch Delta (although I guess he doesn't have any votes anymore, huh), or you can stick your thumbs in your ass and hope that everything goes your way and that we lynch your target of choice. Personally I think this type of attitude feels like unsettling stall tactics and is the type of attitude that will leave us with a hung jury and no answers. If you feel like that we should be doing something else, then I suggest you press it more adamantly than you have been, because uh if you don't want the leading candidate to be lynched then it seems like a good time to formulate a plan on what we should do.

Do I think Cid is the best target of our lynch? Well, if my vote hasn't indicated, no. But he has fallen into some of the same things that I have pointed out against Excal, and we are seriously running out of time.

Argh. ;_; Stating intent to hammer in 15~ minutes, have no time left to post anything else. I'm willing to listen to any arguments made in the meantime.
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Laggy

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2008, 06:28:42 PM »
Just a reminder that I autoextend deadline by a half hour from the latest post, so the majority lynch doesn't happen unless the hammer falls or discussion dies for 30 minutes. Considering it is basically a half hour to scheduled deadline from now, you may continue discussion without worry of the clock so long as it stays active.
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Hunter Sopko

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Re: Succinct Mafia - Game start (Day 1)
« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2008, 06:30:17 PM »
Mrf. Why do you chose now to start responding to things properly and clearly, rather than going with what you did before?

Alex: I've been saying Bard's been arguing in circles for most of the game. I just kinda latched onto Cid first, who with his latest posts is actually starting to be less of good idea. I'm not going to be someone who swings on a hunch though, and Ciato is right in that it may just be stalling. I honestly doubt it is, since regardless someone is going to hammer before deadline.

But it is true that Cid should have posted these things sooner rather than later, so who knows? Sticking with Cid, living with the consequences.