Succinct Mafia - Game over

[Bardiche]

Where is Bard and how do people feel about him?  I am still a little weirded out by how his construction of the early delta stuff was just glossed over by everyone.  Am I the only one who thinks it was odd?

I'm right over here, reading along with what looks to be a... Very confusing case on Cid, and very dubious solidity on the case against him. It all seems to come down to, "the matter here is no prominent activity!" and when that changes to prominent activity it becomes "the matter here is, you don't post enough content!" as opposed to Kilgamayan and Sopko, who seem to be revered by you, Alex, as being much better than Cid in this regard. Even though I find the three of them to be equally... succinct and not very contributing.

For the past few hours your collective attacks on Cid seem to have all been of the same nature, repeatedly holding against him that he was semi-lurking without providing what you feel to be adequate content. So to say, the issue is that you aren't content with his content.

(pause to laugh about my great pun)

I'm still not feeling good about Alex. I'd like some clarification about this line:

*Now* discussion comes?  Cid, this is why I've been voting you, this is the sort of stuff you would've done better to post, like, a day ago.  Instead of sticking to Delta and what looked like an OMGUS-based "Look at Soppy!" cry until an hour before deadline.  Argh.  Thinking.

Argh. Thinking. What do you mean by that expression, to be precise?

[Ranmilia]

I mean this.

##Unvote: Cid
##Vote: Bardiche

I think Bard's actions have on the whole been worse and his content been less than Cid's.  Cid's reactions drive me up the wall, but at the same time I don't think scumCid would do that.  I know scumCid is capable of much better, re: Anonymafia.

Kilga, since I missed this before:  Just me venting, and attempting to be polite while still speaking frankly.  Wherever I call him sexy, replace it with "not the brightest candle in the menorah."

[Laggy]

Excal (1): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (4): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (1): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (2): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Excal]

Alex, did you miss the post where I decided to vote for Bard, using his odd defense of Delta as my basis for voting for him?  Continuing on that note, Bard.  You may want to help your friend out, but the business of the game is still rooting out scum, and anyone can be scum unless you have some kind of knowledge that I can see little reason for you having as to his alignment.  And that, leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

As for Cid, I've actually been getting fairly townie vibes from him.  Maybe not playing that hard because he's also doing other things, and hasn't really got a clue as to where to go.  But I've generally found him to be one of the more consistent folks.  So, the only way I'm going to vote for him is if it's him or me.

[Bardiche]

...

Jumping votes again, I see. Now, maybe you'd like to dumb down for me your thought process against me as well? I recall, earlier on in the day you've been harping about my playstyle, clarifying for yourself that you believe me playing as I always do is sufficient reason to believe I am scum, or something similar with that I post in a manner that makes it easy to lie. (I don't see how - it's very easy for everyone to lie, you just tell untruths)

With jumping away from Cid now, and at the cost of sounding OMGUS here (I don't think I am, I've held this point against Alex for a while now), can you honestly promise me this time you'll stick to your claim against me? You've been doing nothing but jumping around here, Alex, and frankly I fail to see the pro-town herein.

Your argument to jump off of Cid train seem to consist mostly of metagaming (Cid's playstyle as scum is different), and it seriously makes me wonder whether you even actually considered your case against Cid before pushing it.

What was the basis for voting on Cid, and what is the concrete basis for voting on me now?


Re: Excal

I explained my reasoning for defending Deltaflyer. I will not retract that attitude or flower it up - I earnestly cannot see any malice or deceit in his actions, and take him as a clueless newbie we should not lynch just because he thought roleclaim was a good idea.

[Sierra]

Where is Bard and how do people feel about him?  I am still a little weirded out by how his construction of the early delta stuff was just glossed over by everyone.  Am I the only one who thinks it was odd?

Will take a few minutes to reread things, since it seems I actually have the time. If it comes down to it, I am obviously prepared to vote for Not Me over Me, but Bard's been a pretty minor suspect for me thus far.

The obligatory caution about making assumptions based on playstyle goes here, but I can't really complain about not being dead.

[Ranmilia]

Why I voted Cid:  All day, until just around now, he never attacked anyone or said anything was scummy except for Delta (bad case) and Sopko (bad case, not quite as bad as Delta but everything Cid said about him applied to others and it smelt of OMGUS).  

Why I am now voting Bard:  Cid's reactions look pretty townie.  Bard on the other hand, well, see Excal's post right above here and the stuff it was referring to, as well as my reasons for voting Bard earlier in the day.  Let me drag up a couple quotes real quick.

Oh, and for heaven's sake, stop being so afraid of "jumping around" that you consider it a virtue to stick to one case exclusively and never change your mind.  That goes for everyone here, it's a bad habit the DL's fallen into.

[Bardiche]

All I can read in that, Alex, is, "I voted Cid because he wasn't attacking, and so I pushed until he was at -1 to hammer! BUT WAIT! He flailed! Awesome, that's contribution, time to go push for another's train."

If I flail, will you drop the case on me as well, then?

Your "jumping around" isn't so much as going after a varied number of people as that you seem to press on them with apparent convincement that someone is scum, then abandon that train completely and give it no more words while you chase on after someone else - barring myself, which you referenced to a few times even during the Cid train. It seems as if your cases, Day 1 notwithstanding, are built on very little, yet you pursuit them with zeal regardless.

If you feel I am suspicious, then push for it, question me. Do not say, "Well Bardiche replied pretty well!" and then go back to "Well Bard is pretty scummy!" later on when Cid flails before death and you decide that is enough reason to drop the case.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Okay, Laggy will extend for discussion! In that case, I will stop skipping class over Mafia. <_<

[Ranmilia]

I'm wary of Alex for jumpiness. Like he's trying to run some early Day 1 trains. Prodding on the Delta train first, then conveniently jumping off that when no one gives backing and starting what seems to be a Corwin train? Bit too jumpy to me.

You seem to have jumped from pro-Delta, to anti-Delta, to anti-Corwin, to anti-me all in the course of three pages, and cite my post where I didn't aggressively attack anyone as a reason to vote on me.

These are what bothers me.  These do not say the same thing.  That first quote there came at a decently important juncture and painted me as pushing for Delta's lynch, ignoring that I said from the start he was likely town.  It could be brushed off as an error or whatnot but I think it is important given that Bard's whole playstyle is "Parrot back events, poke other people for judgment on them."  That's a bad playstyle no matter what, but if he's dead set on it then the way to find him as scum is to look for times when his journalism is not accurate and paints people in suggestive lights.  Like he's fishing for a lynch.  "Hey guys who do you want to lynch, I'm cool with lots of stuff, nah I got no thoughts of my own" is what I get from him.

Bout the only original content or positions I've seen from him are "Jumping around is bad!"  (Wrong, though overlookable as a newbie tendency) and "Delta is probably town but more importantly he's my buddy so let him live" (Wronger and why would you even say that instead of sticking to "He's probably town"?)

Bard's reply here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31548#msg31548
placated me at that time as a town-tell, but it is not a very strong one.

[Ranmilia]

Ninja edit for forgetting the actual question of the day:  Bard, who do you think is scummy and why?  Don't restate anything unless it's crucial to your case, I want to hear your actual thoughts.

[Bardiche]

These are what bothers me.  --- ignoring that I said from the start he was likely town.

So you voted on me because I found you suspicious, or what? And... I recall, you were voting on Delta at that time in, what you call, "frustration", despite thinking he was likely town. Since when do we aim to lynch town in Mafia if we're town ourselves?

"Hey guys who do you want to lynch, I'm cool with lots of stuff, nah I got no thoughts of my own" is what I get from him.

I do have thoughts of my own. Refer to bottom of this post. I've held this point for quite a while.

"Delta is probably town but more importantly he's my buddy so let him live" (Wronger and why would you even say that instead of sticking to "He's probably town"?)

This is where you apply some of the "false journalism" you accuse me of. I believe he is town, and that is the reigning motive for keeping him alive. Was I to think he was scum, I'd have pushed for his lynch without doubt. I cited knowing him to an extend and knowing how he plays Mafia (that endearing newcomer obliviousness to DO NOTS of Mafia) as my major reasons for strongly believing he is town - what grounds have you to believe he is town?

Who I think is scum? You, with possible scumbuddy Cid. Riling up everyone against Cid as an attempt to alienate the two of you, then swiftly dropping the case on Cid to pursue someone else again. You've been building crumbly cases on people that apparently you don't even hold strong conviction for, rallying support from others and attempting to get people lynched - even when a simple post can apparently sway your opinion to someone else. Your wishiwashiness can't possible be pro-town.

[Hunter Sopko]

Mrf. Bard, what do you think about everyone else? We know your case on Alex.

[Bardiche]

Delta - Don't think he's scum. He's been mostly oblivious to common Mafia rules around here. Had he a scumbuddy, certainly he'd have played better. In other games, he's been equally oblivious. I... I just don't see it. I don't. Calling for a mass roleclaim at the start is simple newbie obliviousness, not malignant rolefishing by very clever scum that somehow thought to get away with it.

Excal - Was shifty at first, still a bit shifty. Questioned Delta twice without real conviction... Hasn't been really active and contributing. Very little to base on. Initial impression stands, springs from gut feeling, I must admit.

Cid - I don't find his actions particularly egregious, but won't disclude the possibility of him being scum if Alex is due to the way the case against him progressed.

Kilgamayan - Can't get a clear read on him. Mostly neutral on him, not sure if behaviour is indicative of any scrutiny.

Rat - Should be treated with the same scrutiny as always. As usual we clash on my capability to comprehend the bigger picture, but nothing that makes me want to lynch him. Seems to have faded, though, needs to come back and post again.

EvilTom - Tried to get people to vote Cid "before he went to bed". Pressuring people, or what? Not cool. Slightly wary of him, but could also be his usual clumsiness at getting himself lynched in avoidable situations.

Ciato - Mostly neutral read. Haven't seen much of her, she's been mostly absent the past few hours.

Sopko - Has been skimmy and making nasty stings. Not sure if this is indicative of anything, but I think it should be treated with the same scrutiny Cid's received for his supposed "lurking". Being a bit too succinct.

Anyone I'm missing is obviously too lurky.

[Ranmilia]

Ok.  So Cid thinks I'm scum because I voted him and was immune to changing my mind.  Now Bard thinks I'm scum because I voted him and I change my mind too much.

I'll let you all work that one out for yourselves.

And no I would not have let Delta go to an actual lynch.  Frustration is just that.

In the meantime... I think Bard's last two posts speak for themselves and present my case against him clearer than I could hope to.  Read and make your own judgments. 

[Bardiche]

Now Bard thinks I'm scum because I voted him and I change my mind too much.

No... I'm thinking you're scum because of your wishiwashiness. I don't care about you voting me - what reason do I have to believe you'll actually stick to your guns this time around? I'm voting you because of everything else I've said.

[Hunter Sopko]

Hmm... opinions on Alex this game, especially mine, ebb and flow like the tide.

I'm not too keen on Alex being scum at the moment now. Changing from Cid to Bard is pretty high-risk if he's scum, especially if he's buddies with Cid trying to pull a train on Bard, as Bard is saying. It's high-risk low reward, which puts them in serious risk if Cid still ends up lynched. Alex found a more convincing case for him and went with it. Even if he's scum and not Cid, it's way too WIFOMy at the moment to consider that being his strategy with any seriousness. For Bard's points of wishiwashiness, this is something to look at depending on the results of today's lynch. At the moment, you can't really go in for Alex on that.

Bard's points on others are mostly agreeable, and like Cid he's had his bouts of kneejerks and legit posts since being targeted. I'd put them at about equal at this point. I'm not really afraid of changing my vote, but we'll see where it goes from here.

To be honest? I'd say this was probably the most productive Day 1 we've ever had.

[Ranmilia]

So as long as I keep voting for you this time, you're cool with that, then?  Aight.

Wait no that doesn't make any sense.  

Changing your mind and taking multiple positions is not a bad thing.

It is scummy when the person is hopping from target to target without reasons, looking for an easy townie lynch.  Have I done that?  I don't think so, I think I've adequately outlined the reasons for all my votes.

Bard's case against me is now boiling into some wacky conspiracy theory stuff, I think, but other folks, judge for yourselves.

Ninja edit for Soppy - his points on others are agreeable?  Really?  The entire list is "They may be scum, but maybe not" except for Delta and Excal.

[Hunter Sopko]

Ninja edit for Soppy - his points on others are agreeable?  Really?  The entire list is "They may be scum, but maybe not" except for Delta and Excal.

I'll be honest, with the exception of Cid and Bard, I can't think of stances for the people listed any better. He's obviously got people he leans towards more than others. I'd definitely think otherwise about the validity of his list if this were anything other than Day 1.

[Excal]

Hate to say it, Bard.  But I can't see where the argument over Alex is either.  He's a good player, but I find his shifting as he needs to to be a sign of town alignment in him, rather than a sign of scuminess.  His general strategy as scum is more to play to our perceptions of good town play, hang on one person and make them crack while continuing to make his position seem very reasonable to the rest of us.  Meanwhile, as town he tends to prefer focusing just long enough with a lot of zeal to get a strong reaction and judge that.  He's a good player, so these tells aren't absolute (he notices these things and tries to switch them up so he's not easy to read), but right now I'm not all that inclined to agree with cases against him.

Not as sure as before what I think of Bard, but of the targets for today, he still feels like the best bet.  And given that we're an hour into overtime now, making a push for a change now is bad mojo.

[Luther Lansfeld]

 I feel like that Bardiche is being indecisive and has been going in circles, I feel like Cid has been lurking and only got his ass in gear when he felt like he was going to get lynched but was unwilling to contribute much of anything before then. Lack of willingness to get involved in heavy discussion and such when until when on the block looks bad in Cid's case.

Bardiche seems to be suffering from really strongly reacting to being voted upon, and his behavior seems extremely irrational, but I'm torn on what I think about his insistence on voting for Alex and not Cid. Instinctively pushing a train at the sight of your name coming up in lynching candidates seems like a solid scum tactic, but it's also clairvoyant so WIFOMy. Also, the conspiracy theory, it burns.

Overall I feel like Bardiche has made more contributions (even if some of them I disagree with and others bizarre) without having to be pressured into doing so. I also think his defenses post-pressure have been worse. I'm not sure if he's just had trouble articulating his stances or what, but some of his latest posts have been downright wacky.

##UNVOTE: Excal
##VOTE:Bardiche

I feel like this is the better choice of the two because I think your reaction to pressure is more indicative than your casual posting.

[Laggy]

Excal (0): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (4): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (1): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (3): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex, Ciato
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Sierra]

Okay, topic reread done. Ciato solidified as someone to keep an eye on. Bard seems the only likely alternative to myself getting lynched, however, and I don't have sufficient ammo for Ciato (just minor suspicions).

What actually bothers me about Bard is fairly recent: positing scum pairs on day one. I don't see this as constructive, pretty much ever, without card flips (which we obviously do not have, this being day one). It also would have been a terrible idea for a hypothetical Alex/Cid team to go through with this song and dance. Alex posted several times while I was at minus one to hammer, while Ciato was saying she was ready to drop the hammer herself. It was a long time before Alex unvoted, and I'd had plenty of time to get killed before he did so. Are you really suggesting that a scum team would make such a crazy gambit on day one, Bard?

And all of this is setting aside the fact that I know I'm Town (yeah, you have only my word on that, yada yada yada). I also have to take issue with him pointing to my apparently-not-farewell post as "flailing." I wasn't looking for pity, man. I was trying to help Town by leaving my thoughts in the record.

Essentially have a null read on Alex at this time. Definitely don't agree with Bard's accusation of him jumping from one person to another. Sure, he's voted on plenty of different people, but I'm more inclined to view this as town trying to get the ball rolling rather than scum testing out every player to see who they can get trained. If he moved from one player to another without reason, there'd be more of a case, but Alex has generally provided justification (if admittedly sometimes after the fact).

Given all that, and that it's pretty much down to Bard and myself here:

##Unvote: Hunter Sopko
##Vote: Bardiche

~

Muppy edit: Ninja'd by Ciato. Changes little.

[Hunter Sopko]

I honestly want to wait until his reaction to things before changing, but the current events at least convince me to

##Unvote: El Cid

[Bardiche]

Was going to wait for Sopko or someone before posting, but apparently they wait for me! .. kay.

Well, there's a bunch of accusations against me and I'm really not feeling the jive anymore. I'll respond to everyone out of pure humor and then the ball's in your court. I stand by my belief, and I'll go down with that belief if I have to. The one victory I'll have is that Delta'll be able to last to day two, barring scum/TP intervention.

Alex, I think we've already said everything there is to be said about the clashes between us, so I won't bother.

Ciato, I honestly don't think my theory is that far-fetched. Then again, I made the theory, and anyone doing so will never feel it is too farfetched. At the time, anyway. You prefer to vote for someone that you feel contributed more over someone that only contributed in the form of flailing when on the block.

Excal,

His general strategy as scum is more to play to our perceptions of good town play, hang on one person and make them crack while continuing to make his position seem very reasonable to the rest of us.  Meanwhile, as town he tends to prefer focusing just long enough with a lot of zeal to get a strong reaction and judge that.

this all comes down to "his playstyle!" and just seems to be the same. Hanging on someone to make them crack (HINT: he's been on me from the start!) and getting on several people's cases to see what comes of it boils down to basically the same for me. By your logic, I'd feel even more strongly about Alex but you all disagree with me, so I'll just have to do just that.

Sopko, uh, vote Cid not me kthxbai lolz.