Succinct Mafia - Game over

[Kilgamayan]

Quick skim got me this. Not done reading what I want to, but I figured I'd put it out.

Bard: You accuse Alex of metagaming in his jumping off the Cid train here and then make a metagame claim as to why you thought Delta was town here. Can't have it both ways.

Also, there's plenty of potential pro-town in hopping around, the most obvious being that it forces more opinions out of more people.

[Laggy]

Excal (0): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (3): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (0): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (1): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (4): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex, Ciato, El Cid
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[Kilgamayan]

Potential alarmism from Ciato. This raises the question of whether or not she genuinely forgot about the auto-extend (and whether or not that ultimately matters), but I can't say I'm a fan.

Bard, why are you directly picking at relatively inconsequential grunting? Why are you summarizing Alex's thought process by claiming Cid flailed when it was Cid actually calming down that convinced Alex to change?

---

Unrelated note: Bard has 300 posts now. Does this mean he doesn't get any more? >_>

[Hunter Sopko]

I don't particularly feel that Bard's contributed any more than Cid has. However, after Cid's little spat, he dug himself out of his hole and leveled off. Bard's still got that flailing quality to him.

I'll grant that Bard isn't the first to make scumbuddy pairings this game, but since it's become a topic... Bard, let's say they are buddies. There's no way Alex could have known at the time that Cid would be the one trained. It would have had to be planned in advance to have Alex's vote start the train on his own scumbuddy then pull away to someone else and hope people follow. There are two highly risky moves there.

A) If Alex is trying to vote for his buddy to avoid suspicion, why cast the vote that'll put him ahead of the other candidates and make it likely for him to get trained?

B) If it's intentional to go in and get cred and pull out to train someone else, you have to hope to GOD that other people pull off the train. There's no guarantee that you can pull that off, even if you are Alex.

High-risk, low reward. There's a possibility of one of them being scum, sure, but both? It's an insane gambit.

[Bardiche]

I'll give you that point, Sopko. Conspiracy theory does seem to be too far fetched now, but eh, I said it so that's that. I could go off rattling about town cred if you nail scum, but that's a terrible strategy and I don't see why you'd employ it in such a manner.

Kilga, when someone says, "argh, thinking", I make the assumption that something is bothering them and want to know what it is. It's like sitting with a bunch of friends and one suddenly grunts - I want to know why he grunts, and what he means by the mumble afterwards! And I guess we just sort of differ on that aspect, then. With Cid going, "I'm dead, well, 5-10 minutes I'll stick around and answer any questions then!" Maybe we use a different definition of "flail". Probably mine that's different from most of yours.

Anyway, you guys have a choice of either Cid or me at this point, I think (barring that we all now join hands and happily go for someone else), so I guess my defense here is impertinent in order to avoid getting the sack. I admit, I hate hanging by Day 1 because usually the cases are so downright bad it hurts... And the case on Cid is pretty crappy. So that leaves... Me. Well, damn.

Given that my primary suspect is employing what others feel is good strategy against my belief that it is whimsical jumping around, I don't think I can turn the tables here much. But, of course, if you're going to lynch me I do want to get a last say. Contemplating roleclaiming.

[Kilgamayan]

Bard: It was very likely that Alex was going to explain what he was thinking about in the very near future. It seems pointless to ask him what he's going to say when he's going to say it not long thereafter. It smacks of filler.

As for the flailing, it's entirely possible that we simply have differing opinions on what qualifies, but if Cid was really flailing at the presumed end there, it was quite controlled. He seemed more defeatist than flailing to me (NOT ACTUALLY SAYING CID WAS DEFEATIST PLEASE DON'T LASER ME).

[Hunter Sopko]

I'll give you that point, Sopko. Conspiracy theory does seem to be too far fetched now, but eh, I said it so that's that. I could go off rattling about town cred if you nail scum, but that's a terrible strategy and I don't see why you'd employ it in such a manner.

This was actually done, with great success, in the first mafia game ever on the boards. Don't think anyone's tried it since. Don't think they'd meet with great success bussing a buddy Day 1 anymore either.

As far as your suspect, the reason I've considered him but not gone with him is that he's gone out on too many limbs, taken too many risks to me. He looks to me like a townie pursuing new leads. There was no better case than Cid's until you stuck your foot in your mouth. It's WIFOMy to consider all this to be planned at this point.

Depending on the results, it can all change. Day 1 does not cease to have happened in history once Day 2 starts. We can still read your arguments later if you're town. Put out whatever you can, not just resigning yourself. If you're going to roleclaim, I'd do it now, because...


##Vote: Bardiche

[Bardiche]

To that I can only say, "I asked on an impulse". I see someone mentioning they are thinking about something, displaying what seems to be wavering belief in the justness of bringing Cid to the block and then switches over to me. Well, you can't blame a man for being curious, or at least I wouldn't. Sometimes I treat this game as conventional conversation where whenever someone shows they're thinking, you ask what it is they think of.

Well, Cid lashed out at someone and went all "lynch him day 2!", so to me, it was flailing. (watch out for them lasers!)

[Excal]

Remember, while this is a conversational game, it is not meant to be overly friendly, and there is a goal to be achieved.  Now, you're at -1 to hammer, and we're 2.5 hours into auto-extend, so if you have any final words/thoughts, now would be a good time for them.

[Deltaflyer]

Sway my mind in the next 5 mins, Bard before i go to bed. I am seiriously thinking about voting for you now.

[Bardiche]

Yeah, sorry, lost myself a bit there. I was a bit stressed at first, but as you can see I've calmed down. This tea is great.

Anyway, I'll hammer myself at the end of this post.

First off... good job! I'm scum alright. Well, I can't really say dying Day 1 as scum is something new to me, and I don't particularly care anymore. The last few rounds were enjoyable, anyway, and I found out I really don't like having to work as scum, lying through my teeth and try to get someone framed. I'm not fit for deciding who needs to stop playing, it seems, haha.

Anyway, that's really all.

##VOTE: Bardiche

Happy scumhunting.

[Laggy]

*beep*

------>

Bardiche (CONDITIONAL ROLEBLOCKER, SCUM) was nuked by a shiny, new Muppy Brand Orbital Death Laser (lynched)

Corwin (VANILLA TOWNIE) was caught in the explosion and shredded into infinitesmally tiny bits of meat (modkilled)

Day 1 Final Votecount
Excal (0): Ciato, Kilga
Ciato (0): Soppy, Kilga
El Cid (3): Soppy, Rat, Alex, Rat, Dread Thomas, Kilga
Soppy (0): El Cid
Kilga (0):
Rat (0): Excal
Delta (0): El Cid, Rat, Dread Thomas, Alex, Rat, El Cid
Alex (0): Kilga, Bardiche
Bardiche (6): Delta, Alex, Excal, Alex, Ciato, El Cid, Soppy, Bardiche
Dread Thomas (0): Bardiche

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Day 1 has ended! Send in Night 1 actions.

[Laggy]

Excal (TOWN COP) was eaten by a grue overnight (nightkilled)

Day 2 has started! It ends on Friday, 9/5, 6:00pm PST, barring autoextends.

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Good luck.

EDIT: For clarification, sanity does not flip on death.

[Kilgamayan]

...

Well then.

I'm looking back at Ciato, who caught my attention once again with the potential alarmism post I references earlier. I'm seeing some stuff...not being much better than Excal at the whole "posting to maintain a presence" thing, claiming she would have voted if there weren't "numerous" votes on Delta already (there were two at the time - think Excal pointed this out already) after accusing Excal for not going after Delta with GUSTO!™, never actually getting back to us about Tom's post...

Her one notably meaty post was the post where she voted Bardiche...whose flip kinda turns everything in this post on its ear.

Nevertheless, it's early Day 2 and no one has voted, so I don't see the harm in going through with this now.

##Vote: Ciato

I'm curious as to why you refrained from putting Delta in a situation where he would still have needed to double his vote total to get lynched when you accused Excal of not putting enough energy behind his thoughts.

(Is anyone else worried that Tom did not garner a single serious vote? <_<)

[Kilgamayan]

(Topic title needs editing, by the way.)

[Hunter Sopko]

Mrf. Wanted to pursue Excal today, but it seems we now have the reasons for his hesitancy. With the flip, I'll go with my top three thusfar.

Ciato- Needs to talk, as per Kilga's points. Popped in during a critical time and contributed nothing. Class or no, not even a comment towards things hurts.

Thomas- Was around for the Bard stuff, but left when it really started getting heated, left his vote on Cid.

Rat- Also fairly absent despite getting the ball rolling on Cid. Needs to give his thoughts on how the previous day ended.

[Sierra]

Another game, another night one Excal slaying. Sadness.

First off, the Bard flip pretty much makes me discount Delta as a candidate at this point in time. I think it's highly probable that Bard's defense of Delta was intended at least partly to get a townie on his side (especially since the two of them know each other from outside the board, making it likely that Delta would've taken Bard's support in good faith).

Also not really considering Alex right now. Pulling away from an easy lynch on me yesterday to railroad someone who flipped scum? Sorry, no, can't see that happening. This leaves five people:

Ciatokins: Definitely agree with Kilga's prodding here. Also, her joining the Bard train happened sufficiently late that it could have been a scumbuddy throwing in the towel to get some townie cred. Stronger suspect than most right now. So: ##Vote: Ciato

Kilga: Touch and go day one, but I definitely agree with the Ciato push and I have nothing significant to build a case with here.

Rat: I actually keep forgetting he's here. This is worrisome.

Soppy: I've been over this, not repeating it since this is Succinct Mafia. In the interest of setting aside the more unpleasant aspects of day one, will wait and see what he gives us today.

Tom: Has been eerily good at passing under my radar this game. I don't consider him vanishing near the end of day one anything significant given that that was around 1AM his time.

[Ranmilia]

Rat-chan hey Rat-chan
Who do you think is scum?

[Luther Lansfeld]

Cid...

-has been not so present in parts despite being around a lot
-doesn't seem to cultivate discussion unless he is on the line
-essentially the same argument he uses against me about Bardiche, except it makes more sense for him to do so since the other option was -him-.

He has picked at me a couple times before, with his completely inane point of "scum have legit excuses!" I'm not really understanding why he even brought this up, since everyone has lives to attend to. I feel like him using this point against me is ridiculous considering his own “I have excuses” attitude.

I'm looking at Ciato, too. She is notably reserved as scum (metagaming, but I think it's a valid observation that she's less comfortable playing non-Town). I believe she made some solid arguments early on in the game, but has been laggardly in the last day or so. Her announcement that she'll be away doesn't necessarily help matters. As it has been said, legitimate excuses are great for scum.

Okay, topic reread done. Ciato solidified as someone to keep an eye on. Bard seems the only likely alternative to myself getting lynched, however, and I don't have sufficient ammo for Ciato (just minor suspicions).

Ciatokins: Definitely agree with Kilga's prodding here. Also, her joining the Bard train happened sufficiently late that it could have been a scumbuddy throwing in the towel to get some townie cred. Stronger suspect than most right now.

Basically my problem is that he seems to have put very little effort into this. The only decisive thing that has come out of him is that I was being laggardly and the scumbus statement, which is a valid enough point, but also is a very easy point to make without really working hard at driving home a point.

The last point which I feel is important is Bardiche himself and his insistence with not voting Cid but trying to turn his attention to Alex. Normally I don't think I would regard this, but Bardiche doesn't really play like the average DL player, so it's worth mentioning.

##VOTE: Cid

I have more thoughts that were supposed to be part of this post, but I had to cut them out because the Cid part was too long. Attempt to be succinct = failed.

[Ranmilia]

Ciatokins, if you were Bard's scumbuddy how would you have played day 1 differently?

[Carthrat]

Bardiche self-hammering lead me to believe that none of his scumbuddies were both around and hadn't voted for him already, otherwise I'm sure they would've just swung in with the hammer and possibly claimed some credit rather than let him just self-kill.

That means that both Kilga and Delta look pretty good to me at the moment, as they were both active right before that came out, and yet were not on top of him for easy cred. See Cid for why Alex is likely to get a pass from me today.

Cid handled himself decently, given how close he was to hammer. Most scum tend to peter out around then, and I'm likewise positive that if Bardiche and Cid were scumbuddies, Bard would've just jumped on Cid near the end rather than focus on Alex.

I disagree with part of the case on Ciato. She needed to post more and her hanging back/tentativeness was problematic. But I didn't think her vote timing was indicative of a bus (it was too early and Cid still had many votes.) On the other hand she seems to admit that's a reasonable idea to have? Worth checking out.

Dread Thomas and Sopko are my current main candidates.

-Dread Thomas because he left his vote decision up to me and didn't seem to storngly invest himself at a crucial time.

-Sopko because he never really seemed to push his vote on Cid, even when he said it was absolutely sealed. He kinda just hung out there, silently approved of what others were saying, and only when everyone else had turned sour on Bardiche did he really get involved. I'd like him to explain why he jumped off Cid when he did, and then why it took him so long to jump on Bard.

##Vote: Sopko right now.

[EvilTom]

Rat (0): Excal

Does anybody else find this, combined with a potential night 0 cop action, significant?


<->
PS.

EvilTom - Tried to get people to vote Cid "before he went to bed".

Rofl.. ah. Yes. ALLEGEDLY GOING TO BED!
Thankyou El Cid for pointing out that sleep is not scummy. I had to get up early for work today, and yes, 1am was a stupid time to stay up till. I'm very tired today. So sorry for leaving that vote on you & going to bed, but I didn't have much choice.

<->
Reading back over Bard's posts..

Sooner or later, he'll make us do this anyway! I want to be the first in on this so I am not band wagoning! ##VOTE: EvilTom

EvilTom - [...] Slightly wary of him, but could also be his usual clumsiness at getting himself lynched in avoidable situations.

I should have been more wary of his 'clumsy' attempts to get me lynched. Now I feel stupid. BUT AT LEAST I'M NOT DEAD HAHAH @ YOU BARD!
*cough*

Oh Ninja Rat.

[Ranmilia]

You know I thought Tom was on crack for a second, but upon rereading that is an awfully long time to leave a "joke vote" up.  I think if Excal had gotten a scum read night 0 he would have hinted at it later in the day, though, and there are a couple other possibilities I find very plausible for his N0 read.

Master Dread Thomas, who do you think is scum?

[EvilTom]

Bardiche self-hammering lead me to believe that none of his scumbuddies were both around and hadn't voted for him already, otherwise I'm sure they would've just swung in with the hammer and possibly claimed some credit rather than let him just self-kill.
That means that both Kilga and Delta look pretty good to me at the moment, as they were both active right before that came out, and yet were not on top of him for easy cred.

Isn't that... a huge contradiction?

"Scum would get town credit for hammer if they were around"
"Kilga and Delta didn't hammer therefore they get town credit"

What you just said doesn't make a lot of sense. And also, nobody really believes that hammer gives any credit. Not only do I disagree with what you said, I disagree with your idea that the hammer is of any real significance. Coming in at the last second looks no more suspicious than it does credible.

But you should know that. You're up with the metagame. The fact that you're trying to make this fallacious argument fly is disturbing and suspicious.

I disagree with part of the case on Ciato. [..] On the other hand [..] Worth checking out.

Classic scum. "I don't agree or disagree, but we should all look at Ciato". Well done.

-Dread Thomas because he left his vote decision up to me and didn't seem to storngly invest himself at a crucial time.

Ah, you were setting this one up since yesterday. For those who followed my logic: I wanted to vote Delta, failing that I was happy to move to my 2nd in line of suspicion, El Cid. The balance shifted onto El Cid and away from Delta. There was no point me going to bed and leaving my solitary vote on Delta.
The thing is, I explained this.
But you're choosing to ignore what really happened, because it's much more important to you that I be painted in the worst possible light.


On top of Excal's subliminal "this is who my night investigation was".... I'd say you're looking like a very good scum target right now.

##Vote: Rat


Ninja Alex: Question answered?

[Carthrat]

Dread Thomas: Kilga and Delta would've both earned individual +credit points for hammering towards the end, because someone's gotta do it. I feel it would've been a very clear and obvious option for either of them rather than just stay off and hide. Both were very lurky as well. Had that played out differently, I would likely suspect the one that didn't hammer over the one that did. And part of it is that I simply don't see a Bardiche+Kilga/Delta scumteam being very subtle there. I'm sure they'd have come down on him (I'm sure Delta certainly would have, maybe not Kilga. Still don't think it's likely.)

I do think that Excal likely investigated me. I just don't think he was sane. I was kind of hoping nobody would bring it up, but you did, so there you go.

Do you actually contest anything I said about Ciato? She was topical and needed to be discussed. I'm leaning towards notscum, but I found it odd that she didn't deny the concept of her bussing Bardiche due to timing, if nothing else. It isn't a clear case.