Succinct Mafia - Game over

[Ranmilia]

I do think that Excal likely investigated me. I just don't think he was sane.

Explain this immediately because I'm sure the scum can come to the same conclusions I can.

[Carthrat]

Rat: Agreed with for last line.  Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait? Though...  something feels off here, not sure what.  Will watch.

This line clicked after I saw the flip. Combined with the jokevote, I deduced he investigated me pretty fast. blah blah I know I'm town but what are you blah blah sanity blah blah

Like I said, I was hoping nobody would mention it.

[EvilTom]

Rat: Agreed with for last line.  Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait? Though...  something feels off here, not sure what.  Will watch.

This line clicked after I saw the flip. Combined with the jokevote, I deduced he investigated me pretty fast. blah blah I know I'm town but what are you blah blah sanity blah blah

No no no no no no. I read that too, but he was referring to Delta when he said that. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1900.msg31290#msg31290 is the reference.

I'm more likely to believe:

Let's start.  Given that Rat is always scum and I have no reason to disbelive.          ##Vote: Carthrat.[\b]

Now I don't think it was a joke vote at all.

Like I said, I was hoping nobody would mention it.

Secrecy and concealment and lies is the job of scum.


I'm officially recommending a Rat lynch. My vote is serious.

[Carthrat]

Delta: Still hasn't explained why he roleclaimed, or why he wanted others to.  Attacked me when called on his actions.  Only solid fact that roleclaim is supposedly true.  Answer why you did this, please.

Alex: Why no questions?  Might agree with thoughts Re: Delta, but lack of inquiry is unsettling.  Especially on Day 1.

Rat: Agreed with for last line.  Why did some ignore this when it's a common scum trait?  Though...  something feels off here, not sure what.  Will watch.

It seems clear to me that his post format was to describe relevant thoughts about each of the above three people. I believe he was referring to me in my segment.

I have never thought it to be a good idea to go out of my way to incriminate myself in general. Why make myself look worse, regardless of what side I'm on?

[Ranmilia]

I'm not going to believe insane cop exists in a game this small with post limits unless I actually see another cop claim or flip, to be honest.  However, I don't think Excal investigated Rat anyway.

PARANOIA

Rat, Ciato, Sopko and Kilga all look bad to me for various reasons, in roughly that order of suspiciousness.

I am not willing to talk about exactly why just yet.  I'd like Ciato to answer my question and for all four of them to talk more. 

[Kilgamayan]

Oh for Heaven's sake. Why do people post so much worthwhile stuff this game while I'm in bed? :(

---

I'm frowning at Ciato's bullet points against Cid. The first can also be applied to her, the second...I admit I have a hard time getting motivated to post a whole bunch when no one is riding me regardless of my alignment, so I don't see how this is a scumtell. The third, well, I hardly hold it over the guy for "being prepared to choose Not Me over Me".

---

I think Tom is misrepresenting Rat a bit in his argument, saying things like "Scum would get town credit for hammer if they were around" when Rat said that Delta or myself would try to claim credit for hammering, not that we would actually get it. (For the curious, Bard's "Contemplating roleclaiming" line made me hold off voting him until after he did so, because that's basically a non-vanilla claim and I wanted to hear what it was before making a final decision. Then the hammer vote came in the same post as the claim, so I ended up doing nothing.)

---

I admit I was wondering about any clues Excal left in regards to whom he investigated, and happened to see this again as I was going through looking at Ciato stuff:

Ciato/Rat.  These two...  their posts read clean, but something about them is definatly pinging my scumdar.

Though I'm guessing Alex already saw it given his line about the length of Excal's joke vote and simply didn't bother bringing it up.

---

Whar be Delta?

[Carthrat]

I don't like the way Alex is trying to play the metagame. Sanity isn't a given, 11 players is enough to have slightly off-centre roles, I don't see how you can presume that.

More on Soppy. Like I said, for the first chunk of day one he pretty much latched on to Cid on a single point and then didn't really seem to drop any new insight as things went down.

Sopko seems to get slightly more involved this point. Only all he does here is come to the conclusion that Cid and Bard are equal in his eyes. He's been on Cid forever and seemed quite unshakable despite saying little, and... he doesn't actually seem to say much bad about Bard. Yet somehow, they are equally targetable. He seems to level the playing field and not really try to make judgements, instead leaving it up to everyone else.

The only time he really seems to get stuck into Bard is at the very end, after everything has virtually been said and done and Bard's lynch is all but assured.

It feels to me as though he would've been willing to go in whatever the prevailing direction was with these two. It is a similar complaint as that I had with Dread Thomas, but not quite wearing his heart on his sleeve so much (and I think Cid and Delta are town, so while scum-Sopko would be hoping for a particular direction in his case, scum-Tom just wouldn't care.)

Ninja edit:

Oh for Heaven's sake. Why do people post so much worthwhile stuff this game while I'm in bed?

Dude. DUDE. How do you think I feel >_<

[Hunter Sopko]

-Sopko because he never really seemed to push his vote on Cid, even when he said it was absolutely sealed. He kinda just hung out there, silently approved of what others were saying, and only when everyone else had turned sour on Bardiche did he really get involved. I'd like him to explain why he jumped off Cid when he did, and then why it took him so long to jump on Bard.

##Vote: Sopko right now.

On the Cid point, I did push it. To the extent I did depends on your opinion.

On the Bard one, when the vote swings like that, even in Day 1, I usually get extremely cautious. It made sense that Alex switched over, as he had been on Bard in the beginning, but a few reasonable posts by Cid didn't completely exonerate him to me, and it took Bard a while to really stick his foot in his mouth in terms of trying to worm out of it. The breaker was while Cid's posts was a bit defeatist, he still posted his thoughts, listened to other people and changed his opinions to the end rather than just wildly defended himself. I had to see Bard's reactions to things before I could be comfortable switching over.

At the moment, I'm thinking Rat or Ciato.

Bardiche self-hammering lead me to believe that none of his scumbuddies were both around and hadn't voted for him already, otherwise I'm sure they would've just swung in with the hammer and possibly claimed some credit rather than let him just self-kill.

Don't you meet those qualifications, Rat? In fact, I only think just about EVERYONE meets those qualifications, with the exception of Kilga and Excal, one of which is confirmed town. That you'd say something to that effect and not actually take a look to who fits it is strange. Also Rat, so you're saying you think you're the one that was investigated? Do you also want to say that you've got some odd role that makes powers act oddly on you? It does look to me like Excal was hinting at you, and I don't think he's the type to question his sanity Day 1. All things being equal, thats enough to go on for now.

Ciato meanwhile again has been incredibly limited in her scope of action this game. She hasn't said anything for anyone but Cid today, and yesterday... possibly even less. She jumped on the Bard train with little reasoning. She's not exactly helping, but I'll take the case against Rat first over just not being here. For now.

##Vote: Rat

Ninja'd by Rat: Actually, I think I answer this in this post.

[Carthrat]

I don't want to talk about myself and have nothing to say that I haven't already said about Excal.

Don't you meet those qualifications, Rat? In fact, I only think just about EVERYONE meets those qualifications, with the exception of Kilga and Excal, one of which is confirmed town.

Uh, what do you mean? I isolated two people who were around near the end of the day and hadn't voted for Bardiche- Kilga and Delta.

Me and Dread Thomas weren't around, being in bed. Everyone else was already on the Bardiche train. Nobody else looked better in my book for this.

[Hunter Sopko]

Right. I see that now. My bad. Though was Delta really around? (Not an accusation, honest question)

I still don't agree with your assertion that the hammerer automatically gets credit. That's usually incredibly situational, and to blanket over a critical act like a hammer with a statement like that is just not good logic.

As for the Cid thing again, you claimed I had no conviction on the Cid vote at first, despite keeping it and rebuttling when you questioned me on why I didn't think Delta was guilty (to your apparant satisfaction). You also seemed perfectly content to go along with me when I called Cid on the personal attack, and all you really have to bank on is your lack of involvement in the affair to skirt suspicion on voting Bard or not. Like people said, scum can have legit excuses.

[Deltaflyer]

Yes, I was indeed around when the hammer fell. I was reluctant to cast the hammer vote lest I accidentally lynch a cop or something. (That... has happened to me before) I wanted to be sure. Straight after hammer, I went to sleep.

Okays. Down to buisness. (still reeling from school so I am gonna be consise)

Sopko - Still reading mostly townie.

Rat - Looks quite suspicious to me right now, seems to be trying to sow a bit of doubt about kilga and myself. Just because i was on when the hammer dropped, doesnt mean im scum.

Ciato - Looked mainly as a neutral day 1, she just did some meta-analysis to me. I think Ciato may be townie but im on the fence right now.

Kilga - Also reading mostly neutral, edging towards townie. Seems to be prodding ET right now.

ET - Not too much to go on really, a few posts that read scum.

I'm officially recommending a Rat lynch. My vote is serious.

Although, his reasons are quite good.

Others - will do when i get back home in about... I dunno an hour?

[Sierra]

Rat: Not wanting to incriminate yourself is one thing. But what's everyone going to do the next morning after someone dies and flips Cop? Go back and reread the cop's posts. It was probably a given that someone would've made the connection, and mentioning it yourself in advance would've avoided accusations like Tom's (or at least minimized their impact). Pointing it out yourself as soon as you noticed it would've been the best thing to do.

Personally not convinced that Excal did investigate Rat and leave the jokevote as a hint. The whole "Rat is always scum" thing wore out its welcome a while ago, so it did kind of surprise me that Excal used it for his first post, but...I do agree with Rat the sanity is not a given. CC Mafia had a paranoid cop with only thirteen players. And the possibility that Excal breadcrumbed his night zero investigation does not constitute proof. We need to have multiple investigations and at least one cardflip in hand to be sure we can rely on cop results. All we have now is something that can be interpreted as a suggestion; I'm going to treat it as a minor detail if at all.

---

Basically in agreement with Alex on who the suspects are right now, though I personally have nothing to pin on Kilga. Soppy looks a little better for breaking down Rat posts, though his hands-off attitude to day one still stands out.

Muppy edit: Good to see you're back, Delta. And yeah, I don't see any reason to hold the fact of you not hammering Bard against you, given that you'd explicitly said you were waiting for him to roleclaim.

[Laggy]

Ciato (2): Kilga, El Cid
El Cid (1): Ciato
Soppy (1): Rat
Kilga (0):
Rat (2): Dread Thomas, Soppy
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Soppy, watch word count please. You're going a bit over, especially with quotes added in.

[Sierra]

Ciato stuff.

Cid...

-has been not so present in parts despite being around a lot
-doesn't seem to cultivate discussion unless he is on the line

A fair observation. I'm endeavoring to remedy this.

-essentially the same argument he uses against me about Bardiche, except it makes more sense for him to do so since the other option was -him-.

Eh? I just went back and reread the post where I voted Bard and I don't see any of the same reasons I've cited for suspecting you. What really clinched it in Bard's case was him suggesting loony scum team pairs. It reeked of a desparate need to redirect pressure. Beyond the fact that I mentioned you for other reasons in the same post, I don't know how you see a parallel here.

The main problem, Ciato, is that you focused almost entirely on Excal yesterday, essentially relying on the same argument the whole time. "Low presence, lack of original material." There were others who fit the same criteria, though--Soppy, Kilga, Cor (and, admittedly, myself)--yet you commented on them only in passing. If it took a potential lynching to rouse me, the same could be said of you: you didn't change your tune until it was down to Bard and myself. You were on Excal from page two and didn't let go until it was clear he wasn't a viable lynch candidate for the day.

[Ranmilia]

##Vote: Ciato

Well I might as well put this down while I wait for her to answer.

The first cases that were brought against her are quite flimsy (seriously, deadline alarmism charges?  On day 2 when we have a scum flip in hand?) but her day 1 vote pattern and more importantly her wacky as heck case against Cid today bring her to the fore.  That is a really, really odd case for her to be making.

Rat, are there any people you think are particularly townie outside of me and Cid?

[Deltaflyer]

Ive looked at rat's posts and i do think that he is push more doubt between the townies.

##VOTE:CARTHRAT

[Ranmilia]

 

I do not think Rat should be voted for at this time.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Ciatokins, if you were Bard's scumbuddy how would you have played day 1 differently?

I would have not attacked him in any meaningful fashion because he clearly couldn't handle any type of pressure. Also would have made a point to interact with him from the start. This is such a weird question.

Do you actually contest anything I said about Ciato? She was topical and needed to be discussed. I'm leaning towards notscum, but I found it odd that she didn't deny the concept of her bussing Bardiche due to timing, if nothing else. It isn't a clear case.

I think that it's a judgment call is all. I don't see the validity of it but I am biased.

Alex has pretty much played hardball in the way that Alex does, he is basically number one on the townie list for me. Too much ridiculousness involved in it.

I actually forgot Tom was playing at all, which others have mentioned. Weird. Eerie.

Kilga, Excal did not put energy behind anything. I've already explained this previously. Nothing he said... ever for the most part showed much ambition at all. I am sorry I wanted to ask Delta a question about his stupid playstyle while being hesitant to vote for someone who had two votes within three posts. 1/3rd is not trivial at all, it goes out of the territory of pressure and into seriousness to me.

Kilga is pretty close to the bottom of my list of people I suspect, he seems to be well-intended.

Rat has been far less present than is par for Rat course, I'm not sure precisely what to think about that. presumably just busy and clashes with a lot of the time zones that we run.

Sopko I feel like has made some key points on things which cannot be ignored. He's pretty good in my book, and excuse or no, he did have a pretty good reason for not being around parts of Day 1.

Delta… what can I say about Delta. I’m not sure what to make of such a player, although I will generally concur with the sentiment that Bardiche defending him makes it pretty unlikely that he is scum because that's just a little too obvious.

So basically the people I suspect most are Cid as I outlined last night, and Tom and Rat for just plain not standing out to me in any meaningful fashion.

Alex, what do you consider wacky about my post? Wacky isn’t exactly specific. <_<

[Ranmilia]

Well mainly the fact that you are even considering the possibility of Cid being scum at this point in time. 

Can you really envision a Bard/Cid scumteam playing that way?  Where Cid gets a train run on him and Bard just sits back and wrings his hands and says he won't hammer?  Where Cid folds under pressure but then saves himself by starting to contribute at the last minute, and then we turn and look at Bard, and Bard falls apart completely and says we should lynch Cid (?!) and me?  And neither of them ever present serious cases on other good viable candidates, like Excal?  (Discounting Cid's Sopko push, which all of no one bought into, it wasn't viable)

I sure can't.  I have a hard time seeing this as a serious case that TownCiato would push.  If you really think Cid is scummy, where were you yesterday and what's with the hand wringing about him not being a good lynch (but the town cop is)?  What about Bard's flip makes him suddenly more suspicious? 

I can however see Bard/Ciato as a plausible team.  Ciato played a good supporting role to Bard, stayed on Excal most of the day, and her prodding him about hammering/voting on Cid is kinda fishy.  Her case on Cid today is wacky and the only way it really makes sense to me is scum looking for something to get out of the suspect pack and not thinking straight.

I am comfortable with my vote.

[Laggy]

Ciato (3): Kilga, El Cid, Alex
El Cid (1): Ciato
Soppy (1): Rat
Kilga (0):
Rat (3): Dread Thomas, Soppy, Delta
Delta (0):
Alex (0):
Dread Thomas (0):

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Hunter Sopko]

Ciato, of course Excal didn't put that much force behind anything. He had a big role. He couldn't afford to stick his neck out Day 1.

Don't see how you can forget Tom was playing either. He's not overly vocal, but not lurking, and makes his own points. Came on Rat first thing today.

There's a lot of evidence for Cid being town, Ciato. Alex laid out the case pretty well. If you're really ready to ignore all that and go with the same tactic as yesterday of going after solely one person, then it seriously sets you ahead of the game in my book.

[Sierra]

So, we're deadlocked. Going to break down Ciato vs. Rat for those on the latter:

-Ciato stuck with one case for the majority of day one. There's something to be said for staying focused when you have good reasons to suspect someone, but she latched on to Excal very early in the game, quicker than I think is reasonable to be so convinced about someone's alignment. This suggests to me that it was an artificial case.

-This looks doubly strange onsidering the number of other people she could've hit for the same reasons she criticized Excal.

-She's presently going after the runner up from yesterday (who just happens to be myself, yes). This is typically a safe and easy position for scum to adopt on day two.

-She also suggests I'm suspicious because Bard was pushing Alex near the end instead of me, when I would've been an easier lynch. The last line of this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31633;topic=1900.150;num_replies=220;sesc=a8b625238fd5880df2dd1d268c4a41d7) as well as this one (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=post;quote=31641;topic=1900.175;num_replies=220;sesc=a8b625238fd5880df2dd1d268c4a41d7) should disprove that claim. He didn't push for me aggressively, but he was certainly willing to point people in my direction.

I strongly caution people against assuming Excal investigated Rat yesterday because he left his jokevote up for a long period of time. Unless someone can find other clues, I remain unconvinced. I have my own suspicions about who Excal investigated and I don't believe it was Rat.

I'd like to address Delta in particular here and ask why he's voting for Rat. You've made statements to the extent that Rat is "sowing doubt among the townies," one of them being yourself, but this is rather vague. He may have criticized you, but that was day one. More recently, he's said he's quite convinced you're town. I believe your stance on him is mostly refelxive self-defense which is not warranted since he's now moved on. Remember that Rat (if he is a townie) would have no special knowledge of your alignment and you shouldn't assume he's anti-town just because he called attention to you. I think you should reexamine your position, or at least give us more concrete reasons to believe it.

[Carthrat]

Delta: I said you and Kilga didn't look scummy, not that you did. Please read the actual words.

Alex: Kilga and Delta don't seem likely scum to me (though this is hardly absolute.) Cid is mostly clear to me. You... I'm weirded out by your questions today (why ask Ciato what she would've done if she's scum? How can that help? o-o) but I can't ignore being the first to swing at Bard. Rehashing I know. Nobody else looks particularly townie to me.

Sopko: No, you don't really push Cid's case vocally, though I guess sticking to it like glue might count. You do toss a couple minor questions at others and eventually tear yourself off. All your play in the second half seems geared to try and roll with the punches and to only lynch Bard if it becomes necessary more than waiting for him to dig a hole.

Ngh. I also don't really see how you expect me to handle having missed what I missed, I can't just not comment on it. I will grant that the hammer thing on Kilga/Delta is hardly rock solid, but I'm still going with it for today.

I'm not comfortable here. I don't think Ciato is scum, since she had a golden opportunity to just hammer Cid yesterday and instead chose to get all worried and stallish. I don't think it was an elaborate act because she just wasn't there for most of the day, and thus genuinely may not have had a clear picture of things.

What do other people think of Soppy?

[EvilTom]

Don't see how you can forget Tom was playing either. He's not overly vocal, but not lurking, and makes his own points. Came on Rat first thing today.

I wasn't suspicious of Ciato especially much until this came up. Obviously I agree with Soppy here. FoS Ciato because she's at -2 and I don't see the need to put her at -1 at this point in time.

/

I'm in full agreement with Alex re: Cid. Continuing to pursue Cid is odd indeed. See above.

I had typed a bunch of stuffs about how I wanted Rat to post move his views and all that and evidence on him.. which he just did in a ninja post. So deleting all that for now. I don't have time before work to rethink my views though (gotta get ready for work) but I'll be back later on today (my time). Gotta run >.>

[EvilTom]

****!

more* not move.

That's what happens when I'm in a rush so I don't miss my train. I think I've typo-d every post so far. >_<