Author Topic: Season 40, Week 4 - Intergalactic chicken faces devil tranny. Place your bets.  (Read 8507 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Godlike:

Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)
Lavos (CT) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)

Heavy:

Ted (S4) vs Marcello (DQ8)
Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs)

Middle:

Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs Cecile (S3)
Dart (FE7) vs Gale (DDS)

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Serph (DDS)

Bonus- Rising Waters
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 03:45:34 AM by superaielman »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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Godlike:

Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)- Megid leaves a mark, at least! Rolf is completely outmatched by Zophar on every front but raw offense.
Lavos (CT) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)- I.. am leaning Lavos I think .Depends on how I view Jenna's formchanging- he has the speed to blitz if I don't HP buffer.

Heavy:

Ted (S4) vs Marcello (DQ8)- Go first and one round, I think. Ted is lacking on the defense front.
Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs)- Think that Lassic just keeps too much pressure on Hilda.  He has enough HP to be able to afford her getting a few shots in.

Middle:

Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs Cecile (S3)- Attack magic. Brutal match, but.. that does it.
Dart (FE7) vs Gale (DDS)- Yeah, can't vote Dart over a status mage. His evade's not quite enough here.

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3)- THE IRON WALL IS TOUGH. STRONG. DURABLE. Until he faces a mage. Well then.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Serph (DDS)- Ricardo champing light is wrong on every single level. What an awful field.

Bonus- Rising Waters
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike:

Lavos (CT) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Yeah, sure.

Heavy:

Ted (S4) vs Marcello (DQ8): Goes first and OHKOs? Even if he goes second I have a really hard time seeing Marcello one-round with his physicals; damage wasn't really his thing, and Ted wasn't as fail as other S4 mages at taking hits.
Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs): Depends on things like PS4 Sleep. This needs further analysis.

Middle:

Dart (FE7) vs Gale (DDS): Hmm. If Hand Axe Dart is above average, then he wins if Mudo fails to be turn 1. Mudo does fail -hard-, to me, but on the other hand... Dart MDef. May just flip a coin.

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3): Fire!
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Serph (DDS): Fire!

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

superaielman

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Marcello does nearly 75% per round with physicals. That should one round Ted of the S4 defense.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Yakumo

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Ted really isn't that bad on defense or HP.  Below average, sure.  Pathetic, no.

superaielman

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He's pretty pathetic. 130 to a 200 average or so? But Portal is magic, so that's probably that for Marcello. Vote changed.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Shale

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Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)
Takes a Megid.

Heavy:

Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs)
Yeah, simple.
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Nameless

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Out of curiosity, does anyone know how Lavos' Protective Seal interacts with elemental defenses? If he can make Jenna completely vulnerable without having to worry about playing with her orbs, she's going to have a bad time of it - no resistance to Almighty or ability to reflect physicals and lightning is going to hurt a lot. Not to mention that she's already going to suffer through Spell and Evil Star... Somehow, I think her big defensive form is not going to be the right choice here.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 08:26:53 AM by Nameless »

Sei

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Heavy:

Ted (S4) vs Marcello (DQ8)- Judgement makes Marcy explode.

Middle:

Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs Cecile (S3)- Has decent magical damage and healing.  That should handle Cecile pretty nicely

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3)- Kwanda doesn't like magic, he doesn't like magic at all.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 09:46:54 AM by Sei »

Dhyerwolf

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Godlike:

Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)- Zophar
Lavos (CT) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)- Jenna

Heavy:

Ted (S4) vs Marcello (DQ8)- Ted
Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs)- Lassic

Middle:

Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs Cecile (S3)- Rutee. Slow match, but she has the MP for it.
Dart (FE7) vs Gale (DDS)- Gale. Yeah, Gale will go before the OHKO weapons, and I can't believe the stat topic for DDS over doubled the ID accuracy (Which Dart needs to win in this theory)

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3)- Joker
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Serph (DDS)- Ricardo
...into the nightfall.

Monkeyfinger

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Godlike:

Lavos (CT) vs Jenna Angel (DDS): Chicken Lavos is too frail. Right bit Lavos keeps letting the Bhairava form get multiple turns.

Heavy:

Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs): The sleep hype is to allow Lassic to stun her until buffs wear out? Yeah, I think Hilda's resources are bad enough for that to work.

Middle:

Dart (FE7) vs Gale (DDS): For now I'll go with both one rounding each other and Dart losing average speed tiebreaks.

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3)
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Serph (DDS)

muakaka

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Godlike:

Zophar (Lunar:EBC) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)- Because it's Zophar.
Lavos (CT) vs Jenna Angel (DDS)- Jenna respect pretty high for me.

Heavy:

Ted (S4) vs Marcello (DQ8)-Extra damage. From bloody Judgement.
Hilda Valentine (SH3) vs Lassic (PSs)

Middle:

Rutee Katrea (ToD) vs Cecile (S3)- Overall better with more tricks.
Dart (FE7) vs Gale (DDS)-YES DDS2 RESIST PHYSICALS.

Light:

Kwanda Rosman (S1) vs Joker (S3)-The fire. It burns.
Ricardo Gomez (SH3) vs Serph (DDS)-The fire. It burns even more. What burns most is RICARDO getting into finals if he wins this.

superaielman

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Out of curiosity, does anyone know how Lavos' Protective Seal interacts with elemental defenses? If he can make Jenna completely vulnerable without having to worry about playing with her orbs, she's going to have a bad time of it - no resistance to Almighty or ability to reflect physicals and lightning is going to hurt a lot. Not to mention that she's already going to suffer through Spell and Evil Star... Somehow, I think her big defensive form is not going to be the right choice here.

I think Protective Seal just hits status defense/defense in general, but I could be wrong. Jenna's better off using the first form for this- Lavos does not like the raw offense that she has in that form.
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Mad Fnorder

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Not sure if it swings the fight, but If Serph's getting hit by Ricardo press-turns, isn't Serph hitting weakness on the Red-element Ricardo for his own doubles?

Dark Holy Elf

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DDS weaknesses give the opponent an extra turn. SH3 weaknesses do not. Although there's some room for argument here, I view weakness as entirely a property of the defender.

You could just as easily take your question and say "Shouldn't Gallows hit Ricardo for 3x damage, since that's what weakness is in his home game?" But I say nay: WA3 weakness is 3x, SH3 weakness is 1.25x, DDS weakness is 1.5x + opponent gets one free turn, defender's definition applying always. The fact that some games have multiple levels of weakness (FF4: Rubicant takes 4x from Ice while some other FF4 enemies take 2x. And for that matter, DDS2: Abaddon takes 2x from Lightning without giving the opponents a Press Turn) supports my view.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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I think Protective Seal just hits status defense/defense in general, but I could be wrong.

Protective Seal describes itself rather bluntly as a status immunity buster and nothing else. Basically an insurance policy against Vigil Hat cheese. Just confirming super here.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Chisa

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OK, say Lavos opens with PS.  Now the question becomes, can Lavos inflict Chaos before it gets overpowered by Jenna-1?  Chaos is really the only status that can put a crimp in Jenna's offense, because smacking yourself in the face half the time is not something you want to do when blitzing, and being forced into doing base physicals every turn when you're not smacking yourself in the face is even worse.  And Chaos won't go away if it uses a magic based attack, of which it has plenty.  Unfortunately, I don't like Lavos's odds to hit with Chaos, seeing as it inflicts random status with its move, and there are a number of statuses that don't help it at all. (obligatory lol poizn) Therefore, leaning Jenna.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Stop and Slow might also be bad news, but it depends exactly how you handle Jenna's formshifts.

If you do allow Jenna's formshift in its full glory, I think Lavos' best chance is tanking the Bhairavas while the Core's defence is up. Other views of Lavos just get him killed. Of course, other views of Jenna could in turn save him. It's a weird fight.

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ThePiggyman

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Stop and Slow might also be bad news, but it depends exactly how you handle Jenna's formshifts.

If you do allow Jenna's formshift in its full glory, I think Lavos' best chance is tanking the Bhairavas while the Core's defence is up. Other views of Lavos just get him killed. Of course, other views of Jenna could in turn save him. It's a weird fight.

Most all fights with Lavos in them are weird.  :P
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InfinityDragon

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DDS weaknesses give the opponent an extra turn. SH3 weaknesses do not. Although there's some room for argument here, I view weakness as entirely a property of the defender. . . DDS weakness is 1.5x + opponent gets one free turn, defender's definition applying always

That's really not how press turns work. Press turns are mechanics of a cost-depletion system: the efficiency of the ability used determines its cost in press turns. Hitting a weakness doesn't in any way, shape, or form give you an extra turn; you simply lose a lesser number of turns (otherwise you would get infinite turns, which clearly is not the case). Moreover, the fact that Critical Hits/Evasion affect how rapidly press turns are consumed is a strong indication that press turns are independent from elemental affinities. There's also the problem of MT attacks having varied effects. If an MT attack is Drained by one enemy and hits the weaknesses of 5 others, all press turns are consumed despite hitting multiple weaknesses. If press turn consumption truly was based on the elemental characteristics of the defender, then each individual enemy would have had an effect on the press turns consumed, but this also clearly isn't the case.

If anything, press turns are a measurement of speed since they are directly relevant to total actions over time (somewhat similar to FF10/10-2's ability cooldown mechanics). It's also probably the most balanced approach, since it's easy enough to incorporate press turns into the speed system for DL matches (Serph hits someone Weak to Ice, he still has one action remaining; if someone hits Serph with Fire, that character still has one action remaining, etc.). It's also the closest to how it works in-game, which is always good.

Yakumo

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ID brings up a good point.  Even if you're using the defender's definition for weaknesses, which makes sense to me, you would have to be going so far as to apply the defender's turn system to the attacker for the DDS PCs to be affected turn-wise by getting hit with weaknesses, as they technically don't lose the turns, the person hitting them gains them(or loses less, but that effectively gains them).

That said, I can't see the DDS characters hitting a weakness to get the extra turns either, as that's not how the people they're hitting are generally handled.

In fact, I'm thinking I'm now inclined to throw out the extra turns portion of their weaknesses unless it's two games with press turns fighting each other, as I just can't see applying pretty much the entire DDS turn system to both characters in a duel unless they both start from it.  I don't take defender's definition -that- far.

Dark Holy Elf

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Yeah, I'm aware how press turns work, though I don't think that changes my point. What might is the point about the five weaknesses + one resist. Hmm. That does make this trickier to resolve...

What I definitely do not agree with, regardless of what I settle on, is giving Serph credit for hitting Ricardo's "weakness". His weakness is insignificant and he should not be punished for it further than 125% damage suggests. Taking a different approach just has icky consequences. Games like Ogre Battle have weaknesses that are as small as 1-2%, should press turns be given out for things like that? Plus the Abaddon point - we already have proof Serph can hit a weakness and not be given a Press Turn for it.

So either I continue with my current view ("causing enemy to only consume half a turn" is a property of the defender's elemental weakness) or I throw out element-related press turns unless SMT fights SMT. I'll think about it, and am open to further arguments.

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Mad Fnorder

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I feel like it's reasonable to view "Ability to gain press turns when striking weakness" as an offensive property of DDS characters, Abbadon example aside. I mean, how does it contrast from Arnaud's Exploit Weakness ability (If you allow Leypoints in the DL) or, to take a more extreme view, species weakness? If Presea fights Shadow with a Man Eater, trying to hold defender's definition of weakness becomes a little tricky.

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Incidentally, are we sure that Abaddon doesn't simply have neutrality to lightning, half resistance to all other elements, and horrible MDef or something?

Dark Holy Elf

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If so, logically he would take insane damage from what his ordinary, rotating elemental weakness at the time is.

Quote
I feel like it's reasonable to view "Ability to gain press turns when striking weakness" as an offensive property of DDS characters, Abbadon example aside. I mean, how does it contrast from Arnaud's Exploit Weakness ability

It's listed as a specific property of Arnaud. i.e. it's unique to him (and Raquel, but clearly 2/5, and also clearly both exist without it for a long time).  A bit harder to make that argument of an entire cast (not just PCs but enemies too).

Besides, uh, the Abaddon point does exist, which only weakens your argument. I'm nearly certain Abaddon's not the only such enemy who behaves like this, but I can't produce any concrete examples so just figured I'd point to something with a stat topic reference.

Plus there's my previous point. What qualifies as a "weakness" for a DDS character to hit? Obviously Abaddon doesn't, that's a pretty big problem right there. Does Ricardo, with only 1.25x weakness? Does an OB character with a 1-2% weakness? So on. It's silly, you can't decide. The much more logical thing to do is conclude that giving the opponent a press turn is at least partially the property of the defender.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.