Author Topic: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3  (Read 5385 times)

Niu

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2008, 12:23:59 PM »
General meh to generic plot powers completely not dealt with in game, and completely indicative of powers. If a Level 1500 Overlord can do all those things...why would she really have that many issues taking on a Level 90 Overlord, even if he's getting a boost (And if he's getting that boost, then your level 60 characters would die miserably...)?

That would assume Zenon?'s starting level is 90 BEFORE all the plot handicaps. Salome dropped to lv.90 from lv.1400 due to her illness. As for Zenon?, when you finally fought him in the final battle, he wasn't fully recovered from the beating Etna delivered to him, and just got swarmed by a whole bunch other Overlords as well. I would say this is far worse than the handicap that Salome has suffered. (Another similiar example would be Sulfur, who you fight in final battle has only lv.100, but his real level 2000 after he got sent back by Lujie in full strength, he appears as level 100 in final battle because he got handicapped by Sprout)

Actually I'm kind of wondering about that. If levels show so much power plot wise then where the hell are the final bosses in all this. Lamington is only lv 90 for example does this make him some sort of weakling?

For now, I would assume so, Lamington never display the same level of power that's comparable to other high rank overlords.
And by level, I specifically referred to starting levels of the characters. After Phantom Kingdom, there are some clear cut off line.
1500 is the line of top class by average standard. While 2000 is the strongest one can get if you are not Baal.
Also, the difference between 500 and 1500 is much more smaller then the difference between 1500 and 2000. Once you hit 2000, you are basically in a different dimension of power hierarchy (and both Zeta and Rozy demonstrated that VERY well). And the difference between 2000 and 4000 would not need any explanation.

But this is not the only indication of the plot power either. Race matter, as well whether the person holds the position of a Regulator. For example, Valvolga, Alexander, and Pram are Overlords the same time Regulators. This would give them powerful elemental manipulation power that don't universally exists among overlords, and could serve as advantages against enemies that have higher levels then they do. (On even more extreme example, Gajir was be able to enslave beings stronger than him by using his Dominance power as Regulator of World, but he is weak as hell outside that)
Same thing, a level 1500 human might not necessarily capable of defeating a lv.1000 overlord as Overlords universally have cheesy dimensional manipulation power (and by universal I mean even the total failure that is Royal King Dark III posses such power) that can be used for their advantage.

Now, on the topic of lv.1000 ghost vs. Lv.90 Lamington. Who would win, I seriously don't now. What special property a Seraph posses is not well documented. He could have some broken special power like Gajir that allows him to take on creatures who have far more levels than him. On the other hand Ghost is just a Ghost.... and Lv.1000 are item worlds only as well, which basically jumps out of the starting level rules. Baal having a different form in item world shows this very well.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 01:23:06 AM by Niu »

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2008, 12:33:37 PM »
Niu: Forgive my ignorance, but... what's a Regulator? And does Soul Cradle exist in the same universe as the Disgaea-Marl-Phantom Kingdom universe?

You definitely need to do a fact center on Nippon-Ichi stuff, half of this I'd never known was canon...

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Excal

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »
Gods & Godslayers:
Lenneth (VPs) vs. Marona (PB)
Can't vote on this.

Kuja (FF9) vs. Lazlo (S4)
Lazlo can wreck a few fleets before burning himself out whereas Kuja can only smash one before he dies.  Of course, Kuja's unit of measurement is universes, which are considerably larger.

Zophar (Lunar2) vs. Bhaalspawn (BGs)
Can't Vote

Lavos (CT) vs. Jecht (FFX)
Guess which one of these two is designed to be defeated.


Godlike:
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs. Melfice (G2)
Both of these two are accomplished fighters with a bit of God stuck in them.  Just, when push comes to shove, Chris also has an army and leadership skills to fall back on, as well as better tactical skills.  Also, her God bit specialises in screwing over other god bits.

Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs. Magus (CT)
Yeah...  Magus fails at something Emelious does plenty of times.

Etna (Dis) vs. Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS)
Again, I give a lot of props for not only tearing open the universe for a few millenia, but being successful in most of it.

Lady (SH3) vs. Ashley Winchester (WA2)
Not voting on this.


Heavy:
Darc (AtL4) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA)
Cannot vote on this.

Gallows Carradine (WA3) vs. Miranda (LoD)
Both of them have sparkly powers, but Miranda is focused on victory, while Gallows needs someone else to motivate him.

Ziggurat 8 (XS) vs. Lenna (FF5)
Generally gets the job done, and is never a damsel in distress.

Emeralda (XG) vs. Cherenkov (XS)
Cherenkov is kinda badass, but even he'll have issues with a living nanomachine colony.


Middle:
Lucia (Lunar2) vs. Tseng (FF7)
Goddess vs. Badass normal...  yeah, not a fair fight.

Tim Rhymeless (WA2) vs. Mareg (G2)
Summoning is specifically his deal, and the Guardians are always big.  Mareg is just a beastman who's a good fighter.

Minsc (BGs) vs. Kevin (SD3)
Not voting here.

Arche Klein (ToP) vs. Rico Banderas (XG)
As tough as Rico is, Arche is still a half-elf in a setting where they're worth noting, as well as a mage in a setting where those are rare as well.


Light:
Guido (G1) vs. Mieu (TotA)
...  I don't know Mieu, but I'm rooting for it.

Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs. Chisato Madison (SO2)
Magical paintings and the legacy of ancient mage-knights vs. martial arts and a taser.  Yeah, not really close.

Banon (FF6) vs. Scarlet (FF7)
What does Banon do when the Empire comes a calling?  Same thing he does when Shinra's fancy toys come a knocking.

Edward Damcyan (FF4) vs. Healie (DW4)
Not a cureslime.

Niu

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2008, 01:38:19 AM »
Niu: Forgive my ignorance, but... what's a Regulator? And does Soul Cradle exist in the same universe as the Disgaea-Marl-Phantom Kingdom universe?

Regulators are people who are in charge of a specific domain of phenomenon.
The most common ones we see are those people who pops out when we are casting Omega or Terra level spells or the Merchant Gods in Soul Cradle.
They are the elemental regulators, and the most basic level of regulators. Valvolga, Alexander, Pram all belongs to this category. Other includes ex-Seraph Tokonats (the Seraph before Lamington) and Ice Queen Yuki san etc etc...
Regulators of a level higher would be the Regulator of Life and Death and one more level above would be the Regulator of the World, and we seem them in Soul Cradle. The highest level on Regulator hierarchy would be the Regulator of All, but the said person who occupied that position was currently missing. The person was said to be present in the Soul Cradle world when that world was still ruled by the 7 Gods (the time before the Soul Cradle world got tore into two and ruled separately by Gajir and Hafnis).
Regulators's power vary greatly depends on the domain they reign over and their power only extent to the boundary of their domain, meaning they are powerless outside that but their power are top class within it. And no, the hierarchy of a Regulator does not reflect the pure raw power you have either, and whether one's power as a Regulator makes up a gap between raw power is completly defendant on what domain the Regulator presides over.

Nitori

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2008, 01:44:52 AM »
Gods & Godslayers:

Lavos (CT) vs. Jecht (FFX)

Godlike:

Etna (Dis) vs. Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS) - DISGAEA POWER LEVELS

Heavy:

Ziggurat 8 (XS) vs. Lenna (FF5)

Light:

Banon (FF6) vs. Scarlet (FF7)
Edward Damcyan (FF4) vs. Healie (DW4) vs. Tallychu - In Bard vs. Bard only Tallychu wins.
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Rozalia

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2008, 10:22:05 AM »
Quote
For now, I would assume so, Lamington never display the same level of power that's comparable to other high rank overlords.
And by level, I specifically referred to starting levels of the characters. After Phantom Kingdom, there are some clear cut off line.
1500 is the line of top class by average standard. While 2000 is the strongest one can get if you are not Baal.
Also, the difference between 500 and 1500 is much more smaller then the difference between 1500 and 2000. Once you hit 2000, you are basically in a different dimension of power hierarchy (and both Zeta and Rozy demonstrated that VERY well). And the difference between 2000 and 4000 would not need any explanation.

While I see your point I don't really agree with it. Taking Etna modes final boss for example. Vulcanus is level 310, does this mean his power level is above Lamington's. Story clearly states it isn't as Vulcanus clearly is scared of Lamington's power with his end quote.

Niu

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2008, 10:28:06 PM »
I see your point. But there is a problem here. First Etna mode is none cannon. Like how the evil route in Soul Cradle, all the World Eaters got some odd level changes (even though you could arbitrarily explain it with the handicap clause, but I won't give my bill on it).

VySaika

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2008, 10:59:06 PM »
Gods & Godslayers:
Lenneth (VPs) vs. Marona (PB) - Lenneth takes Ash as an einherjar, and there's kinda not much Marona can do to stop her. Alternatively, Lenneth can materialize her warriors without physical objects to bind them in and keep them around for an indefinate length. Alternatively, Goddess > Mortal with similar powers.
Kuja (FF9) vs. Lazlo (S4) - I could buy Tir up here. The Soul Eater is talked up as being extremely badass even by True Rune standards. Lazlo? Yeah, he gets torn up by Trance Kuja.
Zophar (Lunar2) vs. Bhaalspawn (BGs)
Lavos (CT) vs. Jecht (FFX) - Yeah, going with the "Lavos can bone the whole world at once" line of thought to give him the nod here.

Godlike:
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs. Melfice (G2) - I'm down with True Rune hype.
Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs. Magus (CT) - I'd rate Lavos over any of the G3 guardians I've seen so far, but Emelious is still sucessful at killing multiple guardians where Magus fails to deal with Lavos. Also, iirc, his sword is some kind of Uber Legendary Awesome weapon, and I could buy it nailing Magus just like the Masamune does. It's a shaky claim, but it's still one more bit in his favor.
Etna (Dis) vs. Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS) - Not voting. Screw thinking about Etna plot power. Larharl plot hype I could get behind as you do see him actually waste a whole fleet of spaceships in one chapter of Dis1, but Etna hype seems to be stemming from "Levels are plot power" and that gives me a headache. Maybe I need to play more Dis2 or something, though.
Lady (SH3) vs. Ashley Winchester (WA2) - Kneejerk here. Really not certain though.

Heavy:
Darc (AtL4) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA) - Not even close.
Gallows Carradine (WA3) vs. Miranda (LoD) - Dragoon > Most.
Ziggurat 8 (XS) vs. Lenna (FF5) - Generic Destined Hero powers aren't beating Ziggy.
Emeralda (XG) vs. Cherenkov (XS) - Don't think he's up to dealing with nanomachines.

Middle:
Lucia (Lunar2) vs. Tseng (FF7)
Tim Rhymeless (WA2) vs. Mareg (G2) - Again, I can't imagine Mareg beating on a child. He's got nothing to prove, he'll just bow out. Also, see Excal.
Minsc (BGs) vs. Kevin (SD3) - Kneejerk. Think Minsc will win this slug-out, though it's far from certain.
Arche Klein (ToP) vs. Rico Banderas (XG) - Hmm, if I let him use his Gear, he wins this. If not, he doesn't.

Light:
Guido (G1) vs. Mieu (TotA)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs. Chisato Madison (SO2) - Relm paints, Chisato suddenly has an opportunity to interview herself and forgets all about fighting.
Banon (FF6) vs. Scarlet (FF7) - Banon hides well enough that the Shinra troops Scarlet sends probably don't catch him? But by running and hiding, he concedes the match.
Edward Damcyan (FF4) vs. Healie (DW4) - Uh, magic singing hype or something. Don't particularly care.
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Fudozukushi

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2008, 12:14:43 AM »
I see your point. But there is a problem here. First Etna mode is none cannon. Like how the evil route in Soul Cradle, all the World Eaters got some odd level changes (even though you could arbitrarily explain it with the handicap clause, but I won't give my bill on it).

That might be explained away with Revya's power having a different curve on evil path or something.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2008, 12:25:32 AM »
Just a warning that the voting in this topic will be closing in about 12 hours.

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Rozalia

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2008, 12:58:28 AM »
Well then I better get voting.

Gods & Godslayers:
Lenneth (VPs) vs. Marona (PB) - Lenneth is Marona++
Kuja (FF9) vs. Lazlo (S4)- My reply to this match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDXxRGKqkFw
Lavos (CT) vs. Jecht (FFX) - Hard to decide but I'll give to Lavos due to the crap they pull in X-2. I mean Vegnagun can destroy Sin with its massive mouth blast of death that takes a huge amount of time to charge? Wait a second doesn't Sin do the same thing? New match Sin vs Vegnagun. Who can fire their mouthblast first?


Godlike:
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs. Melfice (G2)- Part of quite a powerful god > Scrubby water ruin. While some have said somewhere that Chris is goold even without it, you must also remember that without Valmar Melfice was still an unbeatable warrior.
Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs. Magus (CT)- Magus gets turned to paste here.
Etna (Dis) vs. Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS)- Headache and generally don't want to see it happen in the next round. As many have said, Larharl hype could take this but Etna hype is a no. I see where its coming from but I'm not buying it.
Lady (SH3) vs. Ashley Winchester (WA2)- The power of friendship, love, hope, and all that is good can not be beaten by evil! Just ask Lord Blazer.

Middle:
Lucia (Lunar2) vs. Tseng (FF7)- My vote here counts for nothing so I'll vote Tseng just so he isn't a sad panda. Asking Rufus for a favor and some other folk he sets a new place for the fight. RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MAKO CANNON! Tseng pushes shiny red button and wins. Yeah you may discount this vote if you wish.
Tim Rhymeless (WA2) vs. Mareg (G2)- Mareg would never do this match. He'd proberly attack Melfice in his match though and get destroyed.

Light:
Guido (G1) vs. Mieu (TotA)- Money
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs. Chisato Madison (SO2)
Banon (FF6) vs. Scarlet (FF7)- Scarlet sends her ultimate weapon against Banon. No not the Proud Clod, not even her soldiers but Heidegger doing a strip. Banon killed himself soon after.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 01:01:29 AM by Rozalia »

InfinityDragon

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Re: Plot Power Tournament Season 4, Week 3
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2008, 06:23:04 AM »
Lenneth (VPs) vs. Marona (PB)
Kuja (FF9) vs. Lazlo (S4)

Zophar (Lunar2) vs. Bhaalspawn (BGs) - Being with power on par with a god that can vaporize the surface of a planet versus a newly minted dime-a-dozen DND god. Hmm.
Lavos (CT) vs. Jecht (FFX) - Close, gut says the hype for Sin's defenses wins out over Lavos's slight edge in destructive power.

Godlike:
Chris Lightfellow (S3) vs. Melfice (G2) - Not buying True Rune hype. The only remotely powerful ones shown are the Gate Runes and the Soul Eater; the rest are scrubs.
Emelious de Pamela (G3) vs. Magus (CT)
Etna (Dis) vs. Mithos Yggdrasil (ToS) - I'm not taking a parody game's plot power elements without a huge grain of salt, given that the game itself makes fun of its own power hierarchies.
Lady (SH3) vs. Ashley Winchester (WA2) - Manages to defeat a being far more devastating and powerful than Lady.

Heavy:
Darc (AtL4) vs. Luke fon Fabre (TotA)
Gallows Carradine (WA3) vs. Miranda (LoD) - Guardians > Dragoons. Easily.
Ziggurat 8 (XS) vs. Lenna (FF5) - FF5 characters beyond the original four heroes have defined plot power?
Emeralda (XG) vs. Cherenkov (XS) - Close. Nanomachine technology sounds cool, but the extent of her power is undefined and she never establishes herself as being any better than a scrub like Bart. Meanwhile, at least we know Cherenkov had the skill and temperament to slaughter an entire squad of soldiers.

Middle:
Lucia (Lunar2) vs. Tseng (FF7) - ...
Tim Rhymeless (WA2) vs. Mareg (G2) - Summoning Guardians is enough to beat brute strength, even if the summoner is a kid.
Minsc (BGs) vs. Kevin (SD3) - 20 DND Strength > Kevin.
Arche Klein (ToP) vs. Rico Banderas (XG) - Powerful mage beats down someone who's only notable trait is being a mutant and winning backyard wrestling contests.

Light:
Guido (G1) vs. Mieu (TotA)
Relm Arrowny (FF6) vs. Chisato Madison (SO2) - Sure.
Banon (FF6) vs. Scarlet (FF7) - Banon fails miserably.
Edward Damcyan (FF4) vs. Healie (DW4) - Not Edward.