Season 46, Week 1 - Myria becomes a treehugger and two fops slapfight in Middle.

[TranceHime]

Godlike

Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)
Ellen Kirishima (Personas) vs. T260G (SaGa)
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Bleh.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Uhuh.

Heavy

Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Can't vote.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - *nodnods* Don't see the summons getting through Legretta's HP that all fast.
Mary Argent (ToD) vs. Marisa (FE8) - Uh, what?
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mhm.
 
Middle

Nergal (FE7) vs. Diego Renault (VH) - :/ I recall Diego having some pretty decent damage (I only remember Ash beating him in damage definitely, at least). I can at least see him doubling, and 2HKOs, surviving one of Nergal's counters at least.
Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP) - Boom. Hitting fliers with a physical knocks them down, so...
Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS)
Schtolthenheim Reinbach III (S4) vs. Rassius Luine (ToE) - Ehhh, what do I know? That Rassius has pathetic damage and such. I think the defense isn't enough for this one...

Light

Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - Tears through with status and other funny magic tricks.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - ...
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA) - ;_________; EVIL GAIAAAAAAAAAA ;____________;

[MC50]

Though, if you use Flame yourself by Catching a BioSoldier with a Trainer, and then releasing it against any boss, it'll do a quarter of their max hp in damage (though it caps at 9999).

Or is the reason it's pitiful damage because it will only do 0.25XPCHP in game? I'm not sure exactly.

[Ultradude]

Though, if you use Flame yourself by Catching a BioSoldier with a Trainer, and then releasing it against any boss, it'll do a quarter of their max hp in damage (though it caps at 9999).

Or is the reason it's pitiful damage because it will only do 0.25XPCHP in game? I'm not sure exactly.

Does that still work against later bosses in the game, like Jenova and Sephy? Question out of sheer curiosity here.

[superaielman]

Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good.  Not something above 50%, really.  And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.

Each enemy in DQ4 (Same as in all early DQ games) have unique status resist scores.  Beat's fine as long as you don't spam it against ID immune enemies, though there are a lot of those at endgame. On the flipside DQ4 endgame enemies are fairly badass against magic in general and resist elemental magic pretty often, so it's not just a problem with status. 

[hinode]

Flame, Thunder, etc. work on every boss in FF5 barring elemental immunity/absorption, ignoring immunity to regular gravity attacks and everything else.  There's no way that I'd allow bosses to have the same effectiveness as the PC version though, as you have to go through a lot of hoops to get them on the PC side as a check on the potentially crazy power.  Meanwhile, for bosses it's a mediocre MT attack that is freely tossed around because it's not particularly threatening against PCs.

[OblivionKnight]

Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good.  Not something above 50%, really.  And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.

Each enemy in DQ4 (Same as in all early DQ games) have unique status resist scores.  Beat's fine as long as you don't spam it against ID immune enemies, though there are a lot of those at endgame. On the flipside DQ4 endgame enemies are fairly badass against magic in general and resist elemental magic pretty often, so it's not just a problem with status. 

I realize that.  What is the typical rate against endgame non-immunes, though?  I really do remember it being around 50% or so (boss version is better, but I think that's because the PCs in general don't have much resistance...damn, I need to play games again).  Status is typically taken against endgame average enemies vulnerable to the status so...that's what we need!  I typically do remember 50%, though, and I'm not seeing Millenia tanking to that.  Granted, Cristo could just win via Stopspell anyway - while she can still use her techs, she won't be able to use her magic, and Cristo's defense might let him live through SBE+GC/FW/whatever.  He then probably gets a shot to heal, and Millenia is screwed.  She needs to hit his non-existent magic defense, I think?  Interesting match either way.

[Cmdr_King]

Stopspell's a wash, Millenia's (default) helm resists Magic Block.

[superaielman]

Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - Mmm...do not remember Beat being that good.  Not something above 50%, really.  And if it's not better than that, he really does lose here.

Each enemy in DQ4 (Same as in all early DQ games) have unique status resist scores.  Beat's fine as long as you don't spam it against ID immune enemies, though there are a lot of those at endgame. On the flipside DQ4 endgame enemies are fairly badass against magic in general and resist elemental magic pretty often, so it's not just a problem with status. 

I realize that.  What is the typical rate against endgame non-immunes, though?  I really do remember it being around 50% or so (boss version is better, but I think that's because the PCs in general don't have much resistance...damn, I need to play games again).  Status is typically taken against endgame average enemies vulnerable to the status so...that's what we need!  I typically do remember 50%, though, and I'm not seeing Millenia tanking to that.  Granted, Cristo could just win via Stopspell anyway - while she can still use her techs, she won't be able to use her magic, and Cristo's defense might let him live through SBE+GC/FW/whatever.  He then probably gets a shot to heal, and Millenia is screwed.  She needs to hit his non-existent magic defense, I think?  Interesting match either way.

I took Beat against endgame enemies that were possible to status, it came out to 70%~ then.

[Rozalia]

Godlike

Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5)- Funny to see what people allow because its Myria. I've always allowed those things anyway so it doesn't matter to me.
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8)- Malik went nearly to the finals of godlike due to his spoiler. Emily has no spoiler and so is just a heavy in godlike. So goodbye, go pick up a spoiler of some kind and then you'll pass as a godlike.

Middle

Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)-I have to go off her ToW form and so see no reason why Jude loses this.

Light

Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS)
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA)- Evil Gaia turns up in its Gaia Core form. A bad beating for Asch follows shortly after. Also Asch a heavy? I agree so is Evil Gaia. Whoever wins here wins the light and middle divisions.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Bah. "Evil Gaia" refers speciically to the joke final boss at the end of the game. I agree that Gaia Core is a Heavy, but that is distinctly not what is ranked. If we ranked "Gaia" I would agree with you, but "Evil Gaia" is only used in one fight.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Middle

Jude Maverick (WA4) vs. Arche Klein (ToP)-I have to go off her ToW form and so see no reason why Jude loses this.

Are you referring to her ToW:RM form, because I'm pretty sure she can OHKO just fine there.

-Djinn

[SnowFire]

Re Beat: This actually brings up a general problem with adjudicating spells in the DL.  In Game A, some impressive status spell fails almost all the time against your average enemy, and it only works consistently on the 10% of enemies with horrible Resistance (Baldur's Gate isn't a bad example, what with high-level 2nd edition characters nearly always making their saves).  In Game B, most enemies are instead outright immune, and it only works at all on 10% of enemies, but when it does work it has a good hit rate.  In-game, this spell is pretty bad in both games, but it's clearly *worse* in Game B where it can't work at all against most enemies rather than simply having bad odds.  Yet in the DL, the spell in Game A will correctly receive no respect, but the spell Game B will be awesome?

The worst offender, IIRC, is FF4A Palom - I think that whoever did the tests said that they could only find two enemies who weren't immune to most of his tricks?  But when an enemy wasn't immune, it worked 90% of the time.

Anyway, Beat was better than that, but I recall mostly being annoyed at Cristo when he tried to cast Beat on Necrosaro or dumb things like that.  I'm not inclined to give it all that much respect either.

Godlike

Myria (BoFs) vs. Ex-Death (FF5) - Ex-death respect, you're required to have Agni, etc.
Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Horrific OHKO.  Also my memory may be off but even with a slower Tibarn Rashidi is not really fast?  Sure he's got tons of actions, but most are coming waaaaaaay at the end of the combat, and I don't even agree that "one OB combat = one standard RPG round."  Tibarn would still double the slow but multi-acting Ghaleon too, and heck, I don't think he even needs the double because tarot cards exist and Rashidi's HP is horrible.  You've got no reason to save them up at this point.  If you could re-use a Grandia III orb as often as you liked in battle
Emily (S3) vs. Empyrea (DQ8) - Horrific slaughter.

Heavy

Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Boss form has infinite healing and will sloooooooowly get double turns.  And no respect for Galcian's damage to pull the OHKO as usual, though I can see it being close with Sarah's less than wonderful durability.
Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - Legretta is about the worst nightmare around for a BG spellcaster who needs to keep concentration.  There's an annoying interp question for if melee characters can close fast enough for the caster to finish the spell, but none such for a gun-user.
Cristo (DW4) vs. Millenia (G2) - See above.

Middle

Kain Highwind (FF4) vs. MOMO (XS) - Abyss Walker.

Light

Miklotov (S2) vs. Randi (SoM)
Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - See above, not feeling generous about status hit rates today.
Chisato Madison (SO2) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - Dang, close.
Evil Gaia (G1) vs. Asch (TotA) - Yeah.  Can EG even do damage to the boss form?

[Ultradude]

Galcian (SoA) vs. Sarah (S3) - Boss form has infinite healing and will sloooooooowly get double turns.  And no respect for Galcian's damage to pull the OHKO as usual, though I can see it being close with Sarah's less than wonderful durability.

People have mentioned Yuber's boss form as being no better than half PCHP, if I remember, and Sarah is even less durable. Unless you really don't have any Galcian damage respect, or lots of S3 boss durability respect.

[superaielman]

Anyway, Beat was better than that, but I recall mostly being annoyed at Cristo when he tried to cast Beat on Necrosaro or dumb things like that.  I'm not inclined to give it all that much respect either.

lol antihyping a status when you're hyping giving a boss here (Sarah) perfect AI. DW4's AI has zero bearing on how good Beat is in the DL. Is SpeedUp worthless in the DL because Brey never uses it? No. Beat is a good spell in game that requires some knowledge to use. So what?

Rashidi (OB) vs. Tibarn (FE9) - Horrific OHKO.  Also my memory may be off but even with a slower Tibarn Rashidi is not really fast?  Sure he's got tons of actions, but most are coming waaaaaaay at the end of the combat, and I don't even agree that "one OB combat = one standard RPG round."  Tibarn would still double the slow but multi-acting Ghaleon too, and heck, I don't think he even needs the double because tarot cards exist and Rashidi's HP is horrible.  You've got no reason to save them up at this point.  If you could re-use a Grandia III orb as often as you liked in battle.

Rashidi's base AGI is high (50~ish points above the average.) That's not the problem.  A second lol is required in a post where you're hyping S3 Sarah's healing then calling another boss who isn't Hrist OHKO bait.

Tellah (FF4) vs. Colette Brunel (ToS) - See above, not feeling generous about status hit rates today.

Tellah's status works on most everything in Zot, and Stone at least is turn one and I'm pretty sure Stop is turn one for everyone.

[hinode]

Re Beat: This actually brings up a general problem with adjudicating spells in the DL.  In Game A, some impressive status spell fails almost all the time against your average enemy, and it only works consistently on the 10% of enemies with horrible Resistance (Baldur's Gate isn't a bad example, what with high-level 2nd edition characters nearly always making their saves).  In Game B, most enemies are instead outright immune, and it only works at all on 10% of enemies, but when it does work it has a good hit rate.  In-game, this spell is pretty bad in both games, but it's clearly *worse* in Game B where it can't work at all against most enemies rather than simply having bad odds.  Yet in the DL, the spell in Game A will correctly receive no respect, but the spell Game B will be awesome?

The worst offender, IIRC, is FF4A Palom - I think that whoever did the tests said that they could only find two enemies who weren't immune to most of his tricks?  But when an enemy wasn't immune, it worked 90% of the time.

Usually in an RPG it's only *endgame* where status immunities are extremely common - earlier on they work at the stated rates.  This is generally enough for people to take high status rates at face value, even in games like FF4 where they aren't worth much in the final dungeon.

I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where a status spell pretty much sucks the entire game due to constant resists, but I seem to recall grumbling about something of that sort along with not taking the stated high rates fully seriously.  Might have been elemental damage instead, though.

[SnowFire]

Cristo: To be clear, no, I'm not actually holding AI against Cristo, but I am holding the seeming hit rate on Beat against him, which is worse than 70% thanks to some enemies actually being immune (an error I'm sure I would have made as well had I been controlling Cristo).

S3 bosses: Well, I never understood the antihype some S3 bosses get for their HP.  Yuber with half PCHP sounds waaaaaaaaay low.  They almost always fight in groups with support, meaning I'm not scaling their HP down at all.  I'd hesitantly guess Sarah as being about .75 PCHP?  And Galcian can barely OHKO Fina with his best attack IIRC, and I think Fina is worse than that.

Tellah: If it does work on everything in Zot, that would change my vote.

Edit: hinode: Oh, I agree with that point.  If only at the very endgame does status start being horrible, I'm less inclined to disrespect the status...  I mean, I'm not sure there's actually a good answer to this.  Ideally a status would be about as good the whole game, but it would be unfair to hose a spell that's fine the whole game because monsters in the final dungeon are immune.  On the other hand, we do similar horrible things for damage - Jean has game-best damage in Lunar2 for most of the second half of the game, but has below-average damage in the DL thanks to Hiro and Lemina getting giant damage spikes in the last dungeon.  Ugh.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

S3 bosses antihype? Simple: the later forms tend to get OHKOed in game, and the best ones durability-wise get one-rounded on average. I OHKOed Cyndar Ruins Sarah with freaking Estella, who dealt high three-digit damage. All of their forms are hilariously frail, the final ones even more so. With storebought Runes, you can overkill endgame Sarah and Yuber even before Song of Madness.

[Cmdr_King]

For more concrete goodness, in their Ritual Site forms Sarah has 3000 (3500?  That range) HP, Yuber has 5000.  Putting together 12 characters (split party, all that) that can deal 1000 damage is trivial as long as you have 12 characters with fully built skills or suitable magic runes, let alone high end Suikoden twinking.  So it's pretty easy to kill them in one round in-game (OHKOs require a little effort), assuming you hit them and discounting evade/parry/elemental resist concerns.  So seeing them as sub-PC to some degree is fairly reasonable.  Mind, you can also argue that they fight with support, or that having so many fully developed characters is excessive, that sort of thing, so not finding them horrible OHKO-bait is not unreasonable either, but it's good for DL matters to keep other interps in mind even if you don't follow them, makes arguments more meaningful.

[superaielman]

Cristo: To be clear, no, I'm not actually holding AI against Cristo, but I am holding the seeming hit rate on Beat against him, which is worse than 70% thanks to some enemies actually being immune (an error I'm sure I would have made as well had I been controlling Cristo).

You can't status out Saro, clearly every status in DW4 is 0%. *Nod*  That's inane. Immunity does not effect (Base) hit rates, does Lede suddenly have 0% Stop because Ramza should always be guarding it? A couple of these enemies are outright immune to magic at endgame (Metals) and some are immune to most offensive magic. 70% scaled against anything that could theorically be hit seems completely fair, it gives you a proper DL scale from magical tanks to the scrubs. Of course, immunity is immunity, and 0 can't be scaled.


As it relates to Sarah, her healing isn't full or even close.

Edit: hinode: Oh, I agree with that point.  If only at the very endgame does status start being horrible, I'm less inclined to disrespect the status...  I mean, I'm not sure there's actually a good answer to this.  Ideally a status would be about as good the whole game, but it would be unfair to hose a spell that's fine the whole game because monsters in the final dungeon are immune.  On the other hand, we do similar horrible things for damage - Jean has game-best damage in Lunar2 for most of the second half of the game, but has below-average damage in the DL thanks to Hiro and Lemina getting giant damage spikes in the last dungeon.  Ugh.

Shit does happen in the translation from in game to DL. More to the point, status isn't scaled like damage is, 100% is 100% and 5% is 5%. Damage doesn't work that way, and that leads to weirdness like Jean and Cecil tanking in damage at endgame.

[Monkeyfinger]

I'd punish beat's accuracy if a lot of the things that could be hit by it at endgame were hit less than 70% of the time, but it doesn't sound like the case.

Not that it matters. Millenia is, despite what a gutcheck would tell you, a fighter in the DL, not a mage. Going first and casting upper is more of a sure win for Cristo than Beat is at the highest levels of respect. Sure Millenia could SBE him and... then what? She does a few shots of damage that barely register then the status wears off, Millenia's MP runs dry, and Cristo heals. Game.

Legretta (TotA) vs. Edwin Odesseiron (BGs) - Legretta is about the worst nightmare around for a BG spellcaster who needs to keep concentration.  There's an annoying interp question for if melee characters can close fast enough for the caster to finish the spell, but none such for a gun-user.

Edwin's key spells (mislead, flame arrow, possibly fireshield red if he even gets that in the DL) are too fast for him to have to worry about concentration, they're all 3 casting time or lower IIRC. (Max is 10) That, and most people ignore concentration for ARPG mages in the DL.

[SnowFire]

Monkeyfinger: If Cristo opens with Upper...  Millenia SBEs, tries to cast Sshh on him?  I don't think Cristo blocks any statuses, so Silence would be Very Bad for him, since Millenia has some normally weak healing too (but probably enough against Cristo).  The stat topic doesn't list Sshh's chances, but with SBE and Cristo's eh offense afterward, she'll have time to try and get it off even though I don't think its odds are very good.

superaielman: Again, more referring to the point that if the enemies who were immune to Cristo's Beat spell instead could be affected 1% percent of the time, would Cristo's chances drop to 50%?  How much respect does the spell get, how much does enemy status resistance?  I'm not saying I even have "the answer" here, but I'm reserving the right to gut check against status success rates that sound too good.  Maybe I"ll just roll a die and see if Cristo gets his Beat off, since even if Cristo's odds are 50%, he might well still win against Millenia's bad MDef.  And...  55 on a d100.  Lovely, looks like I have to make my decision after all rather than a blowout.  That does look favorable to Cristo if you assume 50% on average MDef with a penalty for Millenia.  Might just abstain.

As for S3 Sarah, obviously her PC form has full healing, but I thought her boss form did too?  Maybe not the final Ruins form, but probably her earlier forms?  Because, yeah, without infinite full healing she burns, the PC form definitely loses.  (And as for Jo'ou and CmdrKing's comments, yeah, I'm assuming a not terribly twinked party, and say 4/6 members distracted by support.  Still, .75 PCHP is "faster than two-rounded in a fair fight," so she's still frail.)

[superaielman]

superaielman: Again, more referring to the point that if the enemies who were immune to Cristo's Beat spell instead could be affected 1% percent of the time, would Cristo's chances drop to 50%?  How much respect does the spell get, how much does enemy status resistance?  I'm not saying I even have "the answer" here, but I'm reserving the right to gut check against status success rates that sound too good.  Maybe I"ll just roll a die and see if Cristo gets his Beat off, since even if Cristo's odds are 50%, he might well still win against Millenia's bad MDef.  And...  55 on a d100.  Lovely, looks like I have to make my decision after all rather than a blowout.  That does look favorable to Cristo if you assume 50% on average MDef with a penalty for Millenia.  Might just abstain.

The gut check is understandable, but my basic point is that immunity shouldn't impact rates. Yes it does schew views and in game uses some, but we aren't trying to translate perfectly from in game to DL and it's not possible anyway.  70% is about more or less close enough to accurate based on my own use, as long as it wasn't being walled. It's a good status and generally hits but isn't perfectly accurate, long as you don't hit an ID immune target.  I tested it extensively enough (And DW4 magic and in general) to say it's a fair mark, considering how easily it smashes most of the game's enemies then like all magic, struggles relatively at endgame. Still is good, etc etc.

As for S3 Sarah, obviously her PC form has full healing, but I thought her boss form did too?  Maybe not the final Ruins form, but probably her earlier forms?  Because, yeah, without infinite full healing she burns, the PC form definitely loses.  (And as for Jo'ou and CmdrKing's comments, yeah, I'm assuming a not terribly twinked party, and say 4/6 members distracted by support.  Still, .75 PCHP is "faster than two-rounded in a fair fight," so she's still frail.)

Her earlier forms are both bad in the DL (No HP/healing isn't full) and generally not legal. The only Luc/Sarah/Yuber fight you have to win is the C5 one, and that one is about as academic as you expect.

[hinode]

superaielman: Again, more referring to the point that if the enemies who were immune to Cristo's Beat spell instead could be affected 1% percent of the time, would Cristo's chances drop to 50%?  How much respect does the spell get, how much does enemy status resistance?  I'm not saying I even have "the answer" here, but I'm reserving the right to gut check against status success rates that sound too good.  Maybe I"ll just roll a die and see if Cristo gets his Beat off, since even if Cristo's odds are 50%, he might well still win against Millenia's bad MDef.  And...  55 on a d100.  Lovely, looks like I have to make my decision after all rather than a blowout.  That does look favorable to Cristo if you assume 50% on average MDef with a penalty for Millenia.  Might just abstain

As an example here, FF1 technically has no 100% status immunity since a 255/255 roll will work no matter what.  Most people treat this as functional immunity for all DL purposes, so people Tir can't ID Chaos and it isn't taken into account for hit rates.

It's when almost every monster that isn't outright immune has, say, 50% resist to a status that still works that it looks bad in-game for the spell's accuracy - it's effective rate is roughly halved then.  Of course, there's a grey area here on where to draw the line (90%?  95%?).

[Grefter]

Just to skip over the main argument here and again provide an example.

ToPo.  Arche's ID.  It has an awesome hit rate.  You wouldn't know it in game because fucking everything and its dog is immune to ID.

[SageAcrin]

I'd like to chime in and point out something simple from the other end of the argument.

Accounting for immunity for an average is reasonable right up until you remember there's immunity in the DL.

It's a downside in-game because things null it, and it's a downside in the DL, so why penalize them for it being a downside in-game when that downside is reflected adequately in the DL?