Author Topic: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room  (Read 20356 times)

Grefter

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2011, 12:12:34 PM »
If all we are talking about is not talking about how we want to tie Andrew down and ravage his sweet sweet mouth with our man parts for 20 minutes at a time then frankly I don't care.  He still makes my back arch and I can make his toes curl.

I can still keep him informed of the importance of regular massage of the upper thigh is.  Or even inform VSM once again that he really needs to move out of home, get to Nevada, become/hire a hooker and get on with his life.

If the boundaries are beyond the explicitly stated graphic sexual content then I will be worried.  Until that happens though I don't see it being a real problem.

I think that maybe this is just a case where we have a joke that we have kind of gone on with for a bit to long and Zenny has his own that he has taken to far and completely driven it into the ground.  Just like Trance's dick.

Am I misreading this here?  That is the extent to what we are talking about yes?
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2011, 12:45:58 PM »
That is the case, yes. Most of that wouldn't have made me bat an eyelash. (aside from the first sentence, which was I think was your intent). And of course Trance's dick. <_<

Again: innuendo is fine, graphic language is not. This is not intended to be "you may never talk about sex again, ever." This is meant to be "don't be crass about it."
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2011, 02:17:16 PM »
JUST LIKE TRANCE'S DICK

Go fuck yourself, Hal.  The line between don't be crass and don't talk about sex is very thin and you're being a goddamn moron about this.  At this point I don't even want to be in the chat room anymore, so let's just let this stupidity drop.

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2011, 04:03:27 PM »
Hal, did you actually just ignore what the other two moderators said when you were approached with this idea? The whole "setting down permanent guidelines thing"? On the forum? When you said it in op chat?

My suggestion at the time was to continue as before-kickban people that go over the line, as we always have, without any rule variations. Work based on complaints, in other words. If there was a problem, it was with the moderators in not catching such complaints and discomfort fast enough. Dune agreed. I didn't get a different impression from super about this, though I think he missed most of the conversation.

I was going to get rather vehement about this, until Dune basically said everything much more mildly than I would have. I wasn't in a great mood that day, so I figured it was settled. Right up until this.

I guess Hal's just running all the decisions by himself, now? Good to know, it's about like I expected after he effectively fiat closed the tournament. As he's mentioned considering in the past, to me, incidentally. Just in case you thought that was accidental.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 04:05:24 PM by SageAcrin »
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2011, 04:40:44 PM »
Can we please be a bit more civil here? I understand that ya'll have strong opinions on the matter, but attacking people personally over this is pointless.

I don't have anything to add to the actual discussion, I really can't say I care one way or another.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2011, 04:43:21 PM »
Sage:  Grefter summed up my thoughts reasonably well. I'm fine with this, but I'm also fine with just doing things as before. As Soppy said, this is mostly one person being disruptive and conversations getting overboard from time to time. 99% of the time if one of the ops asks people to tone it down or knock it off, they do and the problem's solved.    Also, if you want to blame the tournament closing, blame me for not having the energy or time any more to get things organized.

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Quote
And when you do so, inform the other Ops to not unban me because otherwise I'll come back in and start talking about Trance's dick again.


and completely ignoring when people ask you nicely to knock it off with things like this.  Acting like an adult doesn't getting to constantly say what you want and driving people away; nor does it mean you can be disruptive to the point that we have to do something like this.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2011, 05:00:03 PM »
Oh hey, people going over the line in chat.  This has happened as far back as...well ever since I can remember chat exisiting.

Hal being an iron-fisted tyrant is mostly a-ok with me.  As long as the high quality content still continues in good working order (stat topics, for instance; stuff that people keep coming back to even if it's not updated) I don't really care what kind of restrictions we have on saying crass one-liners.

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2011, 05:56:51 PM »
I am typing from my phone.

In short (since I see I was mentioned): if the chat is Hal's and those are his rules then so be it. I'm intentionally facetious, and haven't received any direct complaints for it.

Either way, the distinctions can be very vague, and I am not particularly interested in censoring my language. I talk like this in real life. So be it that I will frequent chat less so because of it. It's not like I'm there enough anyway. I don't know what specific issue sparked this.

Innuendo can be as classless as crass, and I don't believe that the enforcement of such rules will be as objective as possible, seeing that the origins seem to come from personal preference.

Heads up apology to anyone I may have offended. I'm also with Ciato - cool it on the personal attacks (Meeple/Hal) because one is completely unwarranted an both are unnecessary.

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2011, 05:58:04 PM »
For what it's worth, I don't see this as a big deal. Zenny needed to be told to chill, that was in the offing sooner or later. I don't see this as some grand imposition of unfairness on the DL; the removal of the ability to shout cocks cocks cocks in chat is hardly a serious imposition.

Quote
I guess Hal's just running all the decisions by himself, now? Good to know, it's about like I expected after he effectively fiat closed the tournament. As he's mentioned considering in the past, to me, incidentally. Just in case you thought that was accidental.

Hal is the admin and we've given him the authority to make decisions. He consulted us and made a choice as a leader. I don't see any of this being wrong or the signs of a budding tyrant. Fact is, the DL simply does not deal with authority well. The assertion of authority is always a dicey affair. At the same time someone needs to take the reins and cause things to happen. If someone didn't take the initiative and act as a leader - Hal for hosting the site or Super for running the DL, for example - things don't get done. So I'm okay with all of this.

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2011, 06:07:18 PM »
Either way, the distinctions can be very vague, and I am not particularly interested in censoring my language. I talk like this in real life. So be it that I will frequent chat less so because of it. It's not like I'm there enough anyway. I don't know what specific issue sparked this.

Innuendo can be as classless as crass, and I don't believe that the enforcement of such rules will be as objective as possible, seeing that the origins seem to come from personal preference.

I really don't think you should worry about it too much. I certainly wouldn't leave chat over it or anywhere close to it. This isn't a big thing.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2011, 06:26:16 PM »
Can we please be a bit more civil here? I understand that ya'll have strong opinions on the matter, but attacking people personally over this is pointless.

I don't have anything to add to the actual discussion, I really can't say I care one way or another.

It's 50-50 annoyance and making a point.

If you're making decisions by yourself and ignoring feedback, you're ruling, not moderating. If I hadn't been annoyed I would have put it more civilly, but the point is still the same one.

As Met said, this isn't a new issue, and there's always been a question of if we're too lax on it(I'll be perfectly honest-based on personal preference, I feel we have.), but just tweaking the settings on the current system first is a lot more logical and simple than setting rules in stone, and there's some question of how desired the rules are apparently. And the exceptions mostly seem to be "eh, either way" reactions.

Also, after thinking about it several minutes, I have found the most nice way possible I can think of to put this.

Zenny, you seem stressed, unhappy, probably overly drunk lately, and overall seem to have less of a social life than I do(a feat), right now. This is a really stupid time to burn your bridges, man.

If you need a break, go for it, but I sure as hell can't defend how you're acting right now. Lighten up, go get some ice cream or something similarly indulgent and non-alcoholic or go moon a random person or something. You damn well know trolling isn't serious buisiness and you're treating it as if it is, with this, serious buisiness that you need to defend. Don't do that, man. I don't defend trolling on the whole, but right now, even you don't seem to be having fun doing it, and that's the worst kind of trolling.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2011, 06:34:02 PM »
I definitely think an forum discussion on guidelines would be ideal for this subject, yes. I was quite confused at where this came from since I seemed to have missed most of the events or ignored them and I presume I am not the only one.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2011, 07:14:28 PM »
Idun: Blame me for you getting mentioned specifically. When the topic of explicit stuff being a problem was brought up to me, I mentioned the only examples of it I'd seen were the late night sex chats featureing you/trance/etc. Zenny was being brought up as the other example but I'm almost never on at the same time as him, so it wasn't anything I'd seen. Would like to state that said late night sex chats featuring Idun and co don't bother me in the slightest, nor would I be offended or leave chat over them, it was just the only example of explicit chat I had run into when the topic was brought up.

My own feelings on the matter...eh? I don't think it's nessesary, but I don't make the rules nor do I even have a job much less log on from work, so.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2011, 09:07:16 PM »
As Met said, this isn't a new issue, and there's always been a question of if we're too lax on it(I'll be perfectly honest-based on personal preference, I feel we have.), but just tweaking the settings on the current system first is a lot more logical and simple than setting rules in stone, and there's some question of how desired the rules are apparently. And the exceptions mostly seem to be "eh, either way" reactions.

Counterpoint 1: We've had 8+ years to make minor tweaks to a system that several people feel has been too lax.  How's that going for us?
Counterpoint 2: Small tweaks is one approach; big change and then dial back the parts we don't like is another approach.  Like...who cares?  This is reminding me of people who debated passionately on Smogon about whether Gen 5 OU should start with an Uber list or not.  Different road, similar destination.

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2011, 10:09:25 PM »
I'm not in chat enough to really 'leave.' I just wanted to segue into apologizing to the potentially offended. A part of me doesn't see a need to apologize to folks who are miffed but don't complain, but yeah!

Edit* Gatewalker, you'z aiite. I think that's why I tend to want to take chats (like w/Trancey) to Skype, because it's much funner when it's said and I don't kill chat.

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2011, 10:18:24 PM »
As Met said, this isn't a new issue, and there's always been a question of if we're too lax on it(I'll be perfectly honest-based on personal preference, I feel we have.), but just tweaking the settings on the current system first is a lot more logical and simple than setting rules in stone, and there's some question of how desired the rules are apparently. And the exceptions mostly seem to be "eh, either way" reactions.

Counterpoint 1: We've had 8+ years to make minor tweaks to a system that several people feel has been too lax.  How's that going for us?

Apparently pretty well. I don't recall major complaints about improper conversations until quite recently. (Edit: ...barring stuff that's five years old+ now or so.) Just because we're too lax doesn't mean it's significantly abused.
Quote
Counterpoint 2: Small tweaks is one approach; big change and then dial back the parts we don't like is another approach.  Like...who cares?  This is reminding me of people who debated passionately on Smogon about whether Gen 5 OU should start with an Uber list or not.  Different road, similar destination.
Human social groups are not a game. You cannot just tweak them (Well, tweak the metagame. Which, essentially, is a game backended onto the game, when it comes to things like restrictions.) to optimize without taking into account personalities and reactions-which are hard to define at the best of times. That's kinda a silly comparison.

(And even then, reactions to those tweaks, I am very sure, have extreme emotional reactions. How much more extreme than is tweaking the interactions of a social group it's self? It even can have elements of feedback to it, as your reaction it's self produces potential tweaks to compensate because of your own reaction.)

If you really want to get into that kind of weird analogy, imagine an ubers list trying to be created where you don't know stats of each Pokemon in it, and possibly could be wrong about other stats. How now?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 11:01:40 PM by SageAcrin »
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2011, 10:46:16 PM »
It's one thing to dial back changes that you don't like, but the implication I got from the initial post is that 'dialing back changes' would not be on the table. I'm personally not offended by anything sexual and it's hard for me to judge someone else's capacity for crude talk, but I'd prefer if we discussed the pros and cons of a change instead of just being informed that a change is happening. I think it would have led to more discourse and less vehement anger by those involved.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2011, 11:32:38 PM »
Ok.

I haven't been around for a while, so I had to be filled in on this a bit.

I'll second Ciato to keep any personal attacks out.

Most people know I'm very laid-back and relaxed, and as such, this should surprise no one when I say that I think this is a bit much.

1) IRC has an ignore command that stops someone's text from coming through.  If you're at work, and someone is annoying you (God knows I've done it and others have done it as well), use that.  Simple.

2) This would and should have been brought to a group as a whole.  Honestly, I think leaving things open and just banning/muting/etc. people that are a problem is best.   

3) Honestly, we're adults - I don't know what the issue with work is (I assume monitoring the material that is transferred to computers), but again, as far as I know, that's a simple fix.  I don't think the restrictions are awful to be honest (innuendo and most things we do should be fine and cover most of our bases) - but they shouldn't really be needed.  Again, I may have missed something in the last month I've been in and out, so please fill me in if there is something significant I need to know.

4) Zenny, please come back to chat.  We need to troll your 4gate more :)
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2011, 12:01:22 AM »
To be honest, I'm not seeing this really changing that much.  An occasional flub here and there is likely to still occur, but a simple kick when things getting out of hand should be enough to get things on order.  realistically, I'm not seeing the changes being as drastic as people think; its really just the extreme stuff that needs to be toned down, and because we WERE lax that some people were getting away with it.  Having a genuine punishment for people taking things too far (which they usually do not) feels fine. 


you could argue its one person and...maybe it is...but really, if you're NOT that one person, you shouldn't have to worry.  Yes, maybe its unfair to that one person, but then you could argue they should know better.  We've kind of been working on an honor system, and things do get out of hand from time to time; we're all at fault of that, and its just the nature of things.  Its when things are like that consistently or on huge long term bases like the instance mentioned in chat when I asked Hal why he did this, I think its fair.  The person in question should know better, and should be able to take a step back and go "...maybe I'm going too far."  I think the problem is they've gotten away with it in the past, with minimal punishments, and because we WERE lax, there was no reason for him to believe we're being serious.

Weeks ago it came up, someone was acting out in a really explicit way, and it wasn't a line or two, they wouldn't stop.  One of the Ops kicked him with a genuine threat to ban.  It got the person to stop on that instance, but...its clear it was only a short term effect.
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2011, 12:36:57 AM »
Human social groups are not a game.

Spiraling way off on a tangent here, but...as an MMO developer, I'm inclined to disagree.  Group dynamics and interactions tend to obey certain rules.  Which is not to say they're always predictable (the same way the weather is not predictable) but there are some dynamics you can observe.  For instance, game balance still matters--if, in an MMO, you're trying to get someone to stop being offensive, and you have the choice to either ask them nicely, or kill their avatar, killing their avatar tends to be much more effective, and thus most people will lean towards that solution, even if they would really rather use a verbal conflict resolution.  For a larger group dynamic, change anything in an MMO, and there tends to be an outcry on the forums.  The outcry might vary in size, but it's always there.  For another group dynamic, it's been observed that on internet communities (forums, whatever) that people get a first impression from tone of posts, and that makes a big difference to whether they stick around.  Even once they're posting, a decent number of people will stop and walk away from the site for a few days if things get too crude or offensive (this behavior is more common among women than men, statistically).

Granted, I'm not really doing the research justice here; I'm not one of those former Sociologist/Anthropologist Game Designers with thousands of studies at her fingertips.  But I can at least vaguely reference a few results.  Now, granted, I have no plans to play Game Designer God with the DL (too much work, too little caring).  But am I capable of using game design to successfully sculpt human social interaction?  Um...I think probably?  (I'm not too confident yet, as the field is still kind-of new to me).

Should Hal be playing Game Designer God?  Ummm....now that's an interesting question.  On the one hand, Hal strikes me as a dyed-in-the-wool programmer, not a sociologist game designer.  On the other hand, I can't say anything Hal's done recently is a game design mistake from the little analysis I've done.  (Except for not keeping FE.php on the site; damnit, Hal, that's basically a stat topic and requires no maintenance >_>.  But now I'm getting off topic from my topic that was already off topic to begin with...).
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 12:39:55 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2011, 12:49:18 AM »
Way, way off tangent. But okay. A game's social grouping is often baggage that's part and parcel with the game, and it's very easy to produce combinations of rules and demographic targeting that are unworkable-generally, not a good parallel to the situation. (Producing strict anti-swearing rules enforced with banning seems like a bad mix with FPS, for instance, as would be lax offensiveness handling and an MMO.)

As you say, a forum's overall tone is representative of it, and people can be ran off by inordinate offensiveness, yes, but I don't think anyone's supporting the latter.

And also, I would like to point out that I predicted an overall negative reaction-the apparent result-to this, during the discussion with Hal beforehand, hence my initial unpleasant reaction to this. As you say, not that impossible to predict, in a general sense, though I sure as hell wouldn't say I was 100% sure to be right.

Also, targeted demographic handling of video games probably falls apart when you're dealing with a group of people that averages 125? IQ or so, like the DL. Things that seem to have tried to target a "smart person" demographic seem to be vastly hit and miss, from what I know, not that it's a demographic that's targetted as much as...well, any other that I can think of(perhaps with reason). Might be a false impression, maybe games are doing it all the time and it's just not as painfully obvious as it is with other demo targets, but.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 12:52:52 AM by SageAcrin »
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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2011, 01:51:03 AM »
...I don't suppose there's any hope that this topic will evolve to the point that we get the DL Tournament back at least long enough to have a proper final season?

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2011, 02:17:07 AM »
Damn, Sage.  You are terrible at judging people's mental states.

EDIT: Removed references to having nothing more to say on the matter because I lied about that.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 07:03:52 PM by Makkotah »

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2011, 04:42:21 AM »
Counterpoint 1: We've had 8+ years to make minor tweaks to a system that several people feel has been too lax.  How's that going for us?

We're an internet group that exists after 8 years.  So...we did good?

Counterpoint 2: Small tweaks is one approach; big change and then dial back the parts we don't like is another approach.  Like...who cares?

Me.

I would have no problem whatsoever curtailing my language on a case-by-case basis as requested.  If I'm offending someone and they ask me to stop I will stop every time.  I will think no less of them for it, and encourage anyone who's offended by my language to speak up if and when I offend them.  I think a 24-hour rule is unwarranted.  If people have certain hours of the day they explicitly need chat not to be, well, explicit, I will abide by that.  I don't need to know names, but I think curtailing language is no small thing, and I don't want to accept any more restrictions on it than are absolutely necessary.  There's a difference between bad language and incivility.

Having a genuine punishment for people taking things too far (which they usually do not) feels fine.

Hal being an iron-fisted tyrant is mostly a-ok with me.  As long as the high quality content still continues in good working order (stat topics, for instance; stuff that people keep coming back to even if it's not updated) I don't really care what kind of restrictions we have on saying crass one-liners.

I disagree strongly with these sentiments.  We are first and foremost a group of friends, and we should try our best to resolve differences as equals before pulling rank.  I am not at all pleased with the imposition of this rule without prior discussion.  We're a group of friends; imposition of authority demands transparency.

I have a potty mouth.  I have said things in chat within, let's say, the last 72 hours that would curdle milk.  Disgusting, vile, explicit things involving a variety of perverse, you could say unnatural sex acts.  I'm fairly certain that some things I've said have been a direct cause of Hal's decision about bad language.  I have never in recent memory been warned, much less punished, about the impropriety of any of that, aside from Hal mentioning in chat a couple days ago that the language was inappropriate.  If people have been wringing their hands about language behind the scenes, I would have considered the most respectful approach to have been to at least talk to me about it privately.  After all, I am the one that said,

Quote
[23:16] * +NotMiki is bitter, stressed, and filled with an anxiety that can only be lifted by extremely disgusting ejaculation jokes, which is most of them.

And absolutely followed through with it.

Which brings me to Zenny.

For what it's worth, I don't see this as a big deal. Zenny needed to be told to chill, that was in the offing sooner or later. I don't see this as some grand imposition of unfairness on the DL; the removal of the ability to shout cocks cocks cocks in chat is hardly a serious imposition.

you could argue its one person and...maybe it is...but really, if you're NOT that one person, you shouldn't have to worry.  Yes, maybe its unfair to that one person, but then you could argue they should know better.  We've kind of been working on an honor system, and things do get out of hand from time to time; we're all at fault of that, and its just the nature of things.

I'm not going to get betwen Hal and Zenny.  Their problems with each other are for them to deal with, preferably in private and preferably without involving the rest of us.  As I said earlier, we're friends; we should respect each other and authority should be exercised as a last resort.  I'll be blunt: I think this new rule is more about Hal's problem with Zenny, and vice versa, than it is about bad language.  I think bad language is a motivation for the rule but I'm not at all convinced that it's the primary motivation.  That's a problem that needs to be hashed out before we can move on.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 04:48:34 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Cotigo

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Re: IMPORTANT UPDATE: IRC Room
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2011, 07:03:43 AM »
So I want to set a few things straight here, preferably while I'm sober and fairly even headed.

There is no doubt that the majority of the reasoning behind this new rule, if not 100% of it, is me.  I had been making "...just like Trance's dick!" jokes all night because, frankly, it's fucking hilarious.  Hal, browsing from work, told me to can my shit and I said something to the effect of, "Oh yeah, timezones.  Hey Hal when are you at work so I know when I should shut up?"  And he said something to the effect of "All the time."

That's when I started to have a problem.  As I've ranted before, that's wholly unreasonable if you ask me, and it sounds like the case with a lot of other folks here too.  I initially got banned when I started running my mouth even more, "I'd like to see what you can fucking do about it when it's 2AM and you're asleep."  This imposition of censorship is fucking childish, and if you ask me the catalyst behind it isn't even that fucking offensive (... Just like Trance's dick! OH! See? Fucking hilarious).  No more so than COCKSCOCKSCOCKS is, anyway. 

Note, too, that I did initially PM Hal about my grievances because I didn't want this to be some sort of public shitstorm.  Then well Hal informed everybody about the rule on the forum, and then a public shitstorm was unavoidable.  And in that PM I made it pretty clear that I was willing to compromise, and if I hadn't been met with unwillingness to compromise at all from the other side I might have been willing to have a more civil discussion and we wouldn't even be here right now.

For the record, assholes, the ignore button exists for a reason.  I'm willing to cram it when people have a good reason (you're browsing at work or something) but if you're just offended you can go fuck yourself on a spike.  It's not like I was talking about raping and murdering your family members or some shit that might actually border on poor taste.

Frankly, even if this does get smoothed and Hal gets off his power trip I won't be returning to #RPGDL because if this is the sort of shit that's going to happen over something so stupid imagine what might happen if something serious actually happens.  I have half of you idiots on ignore anyway when I'm in there anyway.

Also, Super:  When someone starts acting like a child and treating me like one I see no reason to try to act like an adult back to them.  Like I'm going to be winning any hearts and minds in this argument anyway. LOL
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 07:32:30 AM by Makkotah »