Season 46, Week 2 - It's Menardi/Maxim revengefic week in Heavy! Oh god.

[superaielman]

As far as I know MP Buster doesn't *always* reduce MP to zero. I'd have given Poco the win if it was that clear cut *and*  he went first (not happening) Basically to MP bust Poco has to a) Go first and b) Lower MP to 0 *exactly* Anything else even MP =1 and Peppita just MP regens it back. Magical Dance costs HP to use not MP. On the other hand it's pretty clear that a) Peppita goes first and b) Has Turn 1 statuses >.>

Edit: Just went to check something and according to Dhyer's topic Poco doesn't exactly have stellar MP of his own >.> I counted seven characters with more MP than his <.< So uh it doesn't seem like his MP is more than averagish either and in that case c) Peppita has hefty MP damage of her own >.>

Poco's MP bust is 100% against average MDef which all the SO3 PC's are, so if he gets a turn he's killing her MP completely. Her own completely average MP score is irrelevant here, I'm not sure what you can argue with that.  She's also slow by at least one measuring stick in the topic (speed). Granted, running speed. Her going first and statusing seems possible, but it won't be by outlasting Poco's MP buster.

Maria/Sophia/Adray/Nel/Peppita getting MP killed by anything is just a joke. Cliff/Roger sure but beyond that? No.

Sophia's MP isn't even all that notable in the DL. 1.2x is solid but not anything breathtaking, and she's cast best.

[Monkeyfinger]

Stone doesn't give EXP/AP/money when you defeat an opponent with it. So, it's not considered a legal win to most.

I really hate this stance, for the record. If you get turned to stone and are completely unable to get yourself out of it, you lose, and any argument to the contrary - one which states that incapacitating your opponent and having him at your mercy is forfeiture - is crazy to me, and to hell with what the rewards for doing the stoning are like.

[Dhyerwolf]

Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3)- Peppita. Not buying MP=0 is death for SO 3 PCs unless SO 3 PCs are also allowed to kill DL opponents with that strategy.

How's it different from SH SP to you? Running out of that is pretty much death as well and it only effects that series more or less.

SH characters can't use SP damage to kill enemies. SO 3 characters can use MP damage to kill enemies.

Also, I believe Petrify at least gives you the AP, if not the EXP and money.

[Ultradude]

You get the victory music and winning poses for stoning the last enemy, right? Sounds like a win to me, just with penalties. Should WA Amnesia make the opponent forfeit because they won't get any experience, and therefore aren't really getting anything by winning the battle? Feels comparable to me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Luna using her 100% "make enemy run away" move also gives you a victory screen. Yet she was ranked in Light. Viki2-3 teleports enemies out of the battlefield. She was ranked in Light.

As far as I'm concerned, you need to win the battle, not just create a draw, and stoning an enemy FF9-style, making them run away, etc., counts as a draw to me.

The Amnesia examples doesn't work because even if you see it creating a draw, the person inflicting the status is the one creating it, so we wouldn't reward them, and the status becomes completely useless.

[Monkeyfinger]

You're not actually beating the enemy by teleporting him far away, just making a lot of distance. A stoned enemy is easy pickings to be killed. Just imagine Zidane hacking up the statue in front of him. (Would it work in-game if it ended the battle? I forget if FF9 had the kind of petrification that blocks damage, though that kind is rare.)

I think this "no rewards" thing is a red herring, an irrelevant detail that happens to be shared by moves that aren't valid wins for different reasons.

[Pyro]

Unless I'm going crazy, Stone does give you the AP for the kill, which is likely enough for me at least. Even if it isn't relevant for this particular match. (I recall whoring petrify against gold dragons or something for the AP).

[Dark Holy Elf]

(SNES FF petrify imparts damage immunity, so I'd imagine FF9 is the same way. Not certain though.)

Anyway, the "no rewards" guideline thing is nice because
a) It gives a gameplay backing to whether or not a borderline "instant win" move should be considered.
b) In many cases, going by the flavour/animation seems a bit ambiguous. Black Dragon Grief looks remarkably like X-Zone, and by animation alone both could be argued as illegal or not. Rewards settle it nicely.

EDIT: Pyro, AP is determined by the battle formation, not actions during it. Enemies running away also yields AP. That may be good enough for you, but just leaving it out there.

[Rozalia]

Don't see why xp matters for anything in a fight. Stone is an instant kill in my book.

[Pyro]

The real test there would be if you get AP for Fleeing yourself, since the game considering enemies running as a victory for the PCs seems pretty reasonable.

I don't really care so much about the rewards as whether you can distinguish between the move in question and running away yourself. The Lunar stuff pretty clearly doesn't get rid of enemy sprites on the map, whereas VP2's Astral Gate (or whatever it is) is clearly different from running away (kills the enemy on the map). That strikes me as a reasonable way to determine whether a win is legit for DL purposes or not.

[Meeplelard]

Godlike

Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB): Invincible, MP buster should be just enough to win this? For the record, I fucking hate MP Buster cause its one of those Mother Clair moves (yes, invincible doesn't bother me cause Elc gets that naturally! Only character I don't mind invincible whoring from <_<)
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3): Been said.
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs): Kneejerk.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2): Rolf nukes Gilgamesh, then he gets his 3 final attacks, which...should be enough to beat Rolf?

Heavy

Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7): Geshp had a decent physical, in addition to Ice (which Yuffie immunes), right? Should be enough.
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2): Immunes Death Sieze's ID, and Menardi working around a Limit Fighter doesn't largely work.
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1): Uh, yeah, ACF Form rips Dryst in half.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB): Speed difference and Holy resist really hit Cecil hard here.

Middle

Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3): MP Busting Argument works for me.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): Red Wizard can do damage, Lexis cannot.  Again, taking DoS form where Red Wizard gets Lightbringer, etc.
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX): Doom.  Kim's damage sucks too much and he isn't getting an Overdrive through Ally fast enough.
Feraligatr (PKMN)  vs Jill Fizzart (FE9): Laguz Guard destroys Fera.  Even without that, though, Fera's just not impressive, as has been said.

Light

Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD): Imoen beats the crap out of the failure Tales Archer.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1): Yeah, Elfboy's analysis works for me.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC): For the record, I think Guile's damage ends up better than you'd expect given how not all CC PCs have Damage techs to work with (Riddel comes to mind)...not that it matters admittedly, just saying!
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE): I think?

Also, regarding Zidane's status and such...
I wanna say that one option Zidane has, though not necessarily for this fight, is putting enemy to sleep then spamming Thievery since I think that counts as Nontyped damage, thus doesn't wake the enemy up?  Granted, how much you respect thievery varies!  Should replay FF9 and try to get something that looks feasible for Thievery (saying "its completely awful!" just strikes me as wrong since you should be stealing from bosses on a regular basis, at very least, given how much awesome stuff they give.  ADMITTEDLY, this doesn't necessarily mean it will surpass Zidane's physical end game damage), and test this, etc...and I could be making up the Sleep aspect.

Petrify...I honestly can't remember if FF9 really was "AP based on formation" or "AP based on enemy."  FF7 and FF8 did the latter, after all.  Enemy Mechanics Guide probably explains things well enough, probably the former given just how it works.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Out of curiosity, how would something like Poco's MP busting work against Suikoden characters who have a tier-based charge system? Or against PS4/Grandia/SaGa characters who have more than one kind of 'MP'? SoA? What about Fire Emblem characters who have tome weapon charges? Would it nuke the entire tome forcing the character to switch to a new one? Maybe it would break all of them? Or would it just miss since there's no "MP" stat?

-Djinn

[Dark Holy Elf]

Whether or not an enemy survives on the map seems completely meaningless, as well as not an option at all for games that use random encounters. After all, some games with fixed encounters have the enemy die off if you run away. So in these games, by your logic, you can use the Run command and win. I thought VP2 itself was this way, actually (I remember running away, then having to leave a room and come back, when hunting rare randoms), but I might be misremembering.


I can kinda see the case for petrify, since flavour-wise it should kill. Crap like Astral Maze and fear... no.

[Ultradude]

P3 makes the monsters disappear if you successfully run away.

Part of reason that eject-esque spells are different than running is because it involves doing something that affects the enemy, which is different than running.

[superaielman]

Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2): Red Wizard can do damage, Lexis cannot.  Again, taking DoS form where Red Wizard gets Lightbringer, etc.

RW would need a OHKO if he's going the damage route and I don't think he'd get that in time. Lexis still 3HKOs average with physicals and magic, and RW's HP isn't good in any version.

Out of curiosity, how would something like Poco's MP busting work against Suikoden characters who have a tier-based charge system? Or against PS4/Grandia/SaGa characters who have more than one kind of 'MP'? SoA? What about Fire Emblem characters who have tome weapon charges? Would it nuke the entire tome forcing the character to switch to a new one? Maybe it would break all of them? Or would it just miss since there's no "MP" stat?

My take?

I wouldn't let MP bust work on FE. Suikoden characters would lose charges of course. PS4/Grandia/Saga lose their MP stats. Which is TP/MP/JP. The weapon point skills are unaffected. SoA is the same thing, hits MP and doesn't affect SP.

[DjinnAndTonic]

On Suikoden characters I was wondering if you would let MP Bust work on -all- their charges or just for one level at a time? And what about for MP-draining moves that don't -completely- drain MP? Would the draining start at the lv4 charges or the lv1 charges?

-Djinn

[Dhyerwolf]

I personally let it basically take out anything that the opponent uses as MP, since all magic/status/healing/physical techs run off MP in ATL 2. So, his 100% MP bust gets 100% of everything against average Mdef enemies.

[James_xeno]

Just going to say, how does Guile beat Sue? Her damage at the time she leaves wasnt bad at all. >_> Guile has nearly game worst attack power. Sue's attack isnt that bad, thanks to her using bows which raise her strength.

and yes, Peppita does have good Mp.

and am i the only one that likes Zidane here? (as a character I mean)?

Not the only person, just one of the few. Like myself.


Stone = KO

I can't see how it could be viewed any other way.

[Talaysen]

On Suikoden characters I was wondering if you would let MP Bust work on -all- their charges or just for one level at a time? And what about for MP-draining moves that don't -completely- drain MP? Would the draining start at the lv4 charges or the lv1 charges?

-Djinn

Well, if it is 100% MP busting, I see absolutely no reason to not let it hit all of them.  Partial MP busting, I'd probably just evenly split them in some manner.

[Pyro]

Whether or not an enemy survives on the map seems completely meaningless, as well as not an option at all for games that use random encounters. After all, some games with fixed encounters have the enemy die off if you run away. So in these games, by your logic, you can use the Run command and win. I thought VP2 itself was this way, actually (I remember running away, then having to leave a room and come back, when hunting rare randoms), but I might be misremembering.

I'm looking for ways to *distinguish a victory from just running away*. Not saying "does it get rid of the enemy on the map, but "does it do more than just retreating/escaping the fight would." So no, escaping is never a victory, nor escape song, etc... Astral Maze does do something notably different from just running away, which is what I was looking for. Giving items/AP/Gold but not exp would work too, as would working on plot encounters you can't run away from but can whore out whatever move is in question.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Astral Maze does do something notably different from just running away

It does?

[Hyper Inferno]

Feraligatr seems to have a decent shot of beating Jill if you don't allow Laguzguard. Damage is just short of a 2HKO, but Jill has noticeably below average RES so its a clean 2HKO for him (remember, Feraligatr attacks magically despite his higher attack stat in GSC!). Meanwhile, Jill's damage is just above a 2HKO, but Feraligatr has above average physical defense, so Jill can't 2HKO him back.

[Dhyerwolf]

Jill actually doesn't have 2HKO damage on average (She just misses it, and that's what no crit that go off before turn 3 or similar type skills considered in the average. Feraligator also technically 2HKOs, just with a move with an 80% hit rate. If you seeing it hit twice in a row (Which it likely would even if you took Jill's evasion raw), no problem 2HKOing there (Minus whether the Laguzguard is legal or applicable or what have you. I can't speak on that one yet).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Godlike

Elc (AtLC) vs Ness (EB) - Odd to see a PC fight in Godlike.
Deis (BoFs) vs Asgard (WA3)
Zenon (Disgaea 2) vs Brahms (VPs) - ...I think... could be argued either way to me.
Gilgamesh (FF5) vs Rolf Landale (PS2)

Heavy

Geshp (SF2) vs Yuffie Kisaragi (FF7) - I allow Limit Meters to start full, so...
Menardi (GS) vs Maxim (Lufia 2) - I allow Limit Meters to start full, so... (otherwise, it might have been Menardi's fight... agh!)
Dryst (Brig) vs Berserk (WA1) - Not sure... my Brig respect is pretty high, so it seems like a close fight. ACF form probably beats him, though. Argh.
Cecil Harvey (FF4) vs Fenril (OB) - Harder, better, faster, stronger!

Middle

Poco (AtLC) vs Peppita Rosetti (SO3) - As much as I'd LIKE to vote for Peppita here, Poco's 100% MP busting just wastes her. I could see statusing him, but her status isn't 100% accurate, so Poco's more likely to win in most cases. For reference, I would have allowed Peppita to MP kill Poco in return if she could.
Red Wizard (FF1) vs Lexis Shaia (Lufia 2) - Starts with full IP meter...
Zidane Tribal (FF9) vs Kimahri Ronso (FFX) - Doom + Turtling works. Zidane's okay.
Feraligatr (PKMN)  vs Jill Fizzart (FE9) - Definitely see Laguzguard as working against Pokemon or any non-humanoid creature, really.

Light

Imoen (BGs) vs Chelsea Torn (ToD) - No BGs, but I'm of the opinion that they both fail pretty hard.
Olan Durai (FFT) vs Suo (VP1) - Hey, it's the first time I've seen a VP1 character win a fight in Light.
Sue (G1) vs Guile (CC) - I think I allow G1 characters to use some magic, that's probably enough to give this fight to Sue, though they're both pretty horrible.
Tai Ho (Suikos) vs Chat (ToE) - Chat's pretty Puny to me.

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

Her chaos is definitely accurate enough Djinn. Poco has *no* status resist. The accuracy of Panic Dance against enemies with 16 SA resist is in my sig. Feel free to try the enemies in the battle arena for yourself if you want though. Panic Dance is definitely 80% - 100% at L1 against enemies with poor SA resist. Even going with OK's values against enemies with higher SA resist Panic Dance is *still* Turn 1. Frozen Daggers is also 70 - 100% against low SA resist. Take Peppita back to fight against enemies that Nel destroyed with Ice Daggers' freeze on disc one and that's quite clear. Counters and Magic Hook are also accurate chaos though those don't apply for Poco. Only her ID is horrible in general.

Thank you Dhyer. That's what I'm saying, Peppita has hefty MP nukage herself. Why people are ignoring that is beyond me. Peppita is 2HKO to both HP *+* MP to average DEF and that's *without* factoring in damage increases from Power Dance, Berserk, *both* Poco's DEF sucks. Pyro also clued me in that Cure Alls lower DEF so if Poco equips that he's not equipping Magic Book for 100% MP Bust *and* he's shooting himself in the foot by lowering an already crappy DEF further. I'm not sure if Pyro meant Cure Alls just lower DEF by a certain number or if they are DEF =1. If the latter ... uhh.

Super - Fine! Poco wins if he goes first! If he doesn't he has to equip the Magic Book for 100% MP bust to average unless I'm misreading the stat topic and if he isn't equipping Cure All instead to me he's status bait. He's 95% w/o Magic Book apparently then a bunch of other lower values that I don't understand >.> No offense to Captain K but those running speeds are based on Adray running around the battle arena twice. As a sprinter Peppita is faster than Adray/Sophia/Maria. Anyone that takes control of Adray or Maria after anyone else notices how slow they are to start with. I don't know how people see this match in terms of turns since both characters are ARPG types sort of but for if forced to turn based in the DL I see Adray started off as dead last soeed then getting slightly quicker turns as the battle goes on. For Peppita she goes first before anyone who is dead last in averages (hi Poco) but gets slightly slower as a battle goes on. Turn based Poco also isn't going to be going any where. How do people see Faerie Friend or other SO3 moves missing when the enemy is smack bang in front of them? Unless Poco has evade or some mad invincibility frames I don't know about. If using SO3 ARPG style Peppita simply stays out of Poco's range and snipes with Instanto Blast or Frozen Daggers. Anyone who's faced Peppita in VS mode or as a boss knows Instanto Blast can hit their character anywhere on the field and can cause their moving character to stagger, knocking them out of their run. If using ATL style Peppita can still use range to her advantage. If a mixture of SO3 + ATL uhhh no idea there, from the ATL videos I've seen Poco moves in Squares >.>

Djinn - Averages -

Poco DEF -

Defense - Shu > Diek > Gruga > Choko > Elc > Tosh > Arc > Shante > Iga > Sania > Gogen > Poco (w/th Magic Book) > Lieza

MP - 7 characters > Poco > the rest

From tests I did on average Faerie Friend on Luther (no Berserk)

Short X (900~) > Power Dance (invincibility frame) > Faerie Friend (7000~ HP x 8 + 700~MP damage x 8) She also has enough Fury left to cancel into Power Dance at the end of FF and the from the way I remember Tal putting it to me was that with the invincibility frames of Peppita's dances the invincibility would be used up on the enemies next turn. Hey I'll even knock another hit of powerdanced Faerie Friend! 7000+ x 7 = 49'000+ HP total (4900 MP) Well fizzlesticks Peppita *still* does more damage than the rest of the SO3 characters >.>


With Power Dance + Berserk - Short X (1000~) > Power Dance (invincibility frame) > Faerie Friend (9000~ HP x 8 + 900 MP damage x 8) >_____> Then she cancels into PD again then another Faerie Friend then a third Power Dance + Faerie Friend. Yes Peppita has enough fury for that in game thanks to Berserk, dance fury costs are *low* People have said before in chat that they allow cancel combos + Berserk because that's the way the game is played. Why would they suddenly change their mind now? Why would they disallow Power Dance either? Do they disallow Maria's Power Up?

*rant*

**

Other debate thingy- Eh if Petrify works in a PC's game and enemies can use it in game to cause them to lose then they can cause it to non Petrify immune PCs in the DL. If the sole survivor of a battle in FF9 is petrified then it's game over so FF9 characters with Petrify in the DL? Works. As for moves that causes the enemy to run away well if they cause humaniods to run away in game then they do that in the DL too >.> If SHC Anastasia's Spirit Ward causes any soldiers or what to run in SHC (I forget) then it works on PCs in the DL. For moves that teleport enemies out of the battle field Viki etc wins unless the enemy has instant death immunity. I also see that as similar to X Zone.

Zidane wise? SO3 characters can block doom and petrify (two accessory) slots. Mini? Those that have healing alternate between using it and status until status hits or chip with damage and healing in a epic slap fight. Zidane can't block everything irrc >.> Can't do anything about Sleep + Thievery spam though if Meeple is right! Unless Soul Blade is counterable. Feasible! (Peppita and Albel can counter weird crap like Proclaimer's Speed Hax and Nobleman's Spare Me! in game >.>)

Too bad about Jude yeah Pyro. I forgot MOMO was in though >.>

Yes I still have Magical Girl MOMO hype left to comfort me if Peppita is robbed*sniff sniff* ;_;