The 9 Element Homeostatic System

[Veryslightlymad]

So the other night I was thinking about RPG element systems and why they bother me. Like, originally, there was Earth, Air, Water and Fire, but RPGs have traditionally added weird things to the list. It got me thinking. WHY exactly, were the original four elements, long before RPGs were invented, Earth, Air, Water, and Fire?

Well, I thought, it stood to reason that the first three were obviously the three states of matter, that is, Solids, Gases and Liquids respectively, and that Fire was a catch-all for energy. Those should be the elements in a system.

I thought "But what about Ice". Under the original system, Ice is what? Water? Earth, because it's SOLID water? Well, no. Arguably it's Earth, but it's COLD because it hasn't got ENOUGH Fire, that is, Heat.

From that concept came the 9 Element Homeostatic System.

What is it? Well, basically, in this system, there are 9 different categories. Each creature would have a stat for each of the nine, let's say a scale ranging from 1-999. Or rather, from 0-100, where zero was complete lack of a trait, and a hundred would be having a limitless amount of the trait.

Attacks would also be measured the same way. For instance, say you have Heat. A 1 on the Heat scale indicates very, very little heat. As cold as things ordinarily come. This would register as strongly aligned with ice. A 99, however, would be nearly as hot as something could be. This would register as strongly aligned with fire.

Finally, all creatures would have a RANGE of stats that represents the environments that they are capable of living in. Suffering an attack within their acceptable range does NO DAMAGE, whereas, suffering an attack OUTSIDE of their range will shift their -base- stat in the direction of the attack. When their base falls outside of their acceptable range? They die.

Example: Say a human has a range of 40-60 hot/cold, and their base stat is 50. If they keep getting hit by fire, they slowly overheat until they die. However, if they keep being hit by LACK of heat, or ice, they still die. If they are repeatedly hit with fire, why would ice be a bad thing, per se? I feel that the "ice" should actually be BENEFICIAL, sliding you back within your scale of normalcy.

Creatures would regenerate slowly, depending on stat, to a rate of normalcy.

The stats are:
MATTER
Solid
Liquid
Gas

ENERGY
Heat
Electricity
Magic

METAPHYSICAL
Soul (Demonic, Holy)
Mind
Spirit (Ki, Will)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Functionally, all attacks should hit as many spectra that make sense. A blast of acid, for instance, ordinarily deals damage of one type, if even that. Under this system, it would be considered... say, anti solid, plus liquid, and minus heat.  The acidity damages the solid state, sliding it to the left. Too little solid? Well, you hardly count now, do you. A human is a dead human, a rock is now dust. What if you're a robot? The acid might not be strong enough to hurt your solid exterior, but how about your delicate circuitry? Shouldn't you still be damaged as though sprayed with basic water? The minus to heat would seem trivial to almost anything, but is it inconceivable to think of a creature that would be damaged this way? a Molten Rock Fiend would have a homeostatic range of heat FAR greater than our own.

Any thoughts? Could a game based off the sliding scale system be fun? What would you change?

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I don't want to have to use the calculator on my phone just to play a fucking video game. Maybe the Fire Emblem fans will have a nerdgasm about it, though. I like my Gauss rifles to do 15 damage to things that they hit and my fire to do double damage to ice stuff. Keep it simple.

[Veryslightlymad]

No need for calculators. Picture the system with bars. Just simply have an attack bar that overlaps the enemy's stat bar. A ghost-effect shows where the enemy's base stat is moved. The work would be done FOR you.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

"Keep it simple" is still my MO. Unless you're going to have the PCs grossly overpower random enemies, I don't want to waste even more time in random battles by having to work down their resistance to my attacks before I can murder them. Personally, I consider combat more of a time sink/pacing mechanism/punishment device than something I actually enjoy in RPGs (that aren't Star Ocean 3).

Really, it sounds like a very complicated version of the beam/mass driver/missile vs shield/armor/point defense system from GalCiv2.

[Veryslightlymad]

I can see the point you're making. It feels like it'd work better as a one v one style game, as opposed to an RPG.

[DjinnAndTonic]

It sounds like an interesting idea, though I'm somewhat confused. Is this system you're proposing just an idea for some as-yet-made RPG, or is it supposed to be some kind of way to interpret DL elemental weakness/affinities?

It sounds more like the former. In which, it's a pretty neat idea, considering that an RPG is essentially just a way to complicate/put a face on mathematics. The fact that it sounds complex is more of a bonus than a hindrance to me. Also, it -does- sound logical, which is more than I can say for many elemental systems.

But the real question is how it's intended to be implemented.

-Djinn

[Ultradude]

It sounds like an interesting idea, though I'm somewhat confused. Is this system you're proposing just an idea for some as-yet-made RPG, or is it supposed to be some kind of way to interpret DL elemental weakness/affinities?

It sounds more like the former. In which, it's a pretty neat idea, considering that an RPG is essentially just a way to complicate/put a face on mathematics. The fact that it sounds complex is more of a bonus than a hindrance to me. Also, it -does- sound logical, which is more than I can say for many elemental systems.

But the real question is how it's intended to be implemented.

-Djinn

Actually it's just a theoretical concept. Unless VSM has some secret and plans on actually making this game somehow.

I like it, though I'm not sure how best to implement it.

[DjinnAndTonic]

As a curiousity, where would something like 'White' fall on your 9-point spectrum?

Would this mean elements like Wood/Grass/Poison would have to be separated?

I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just trying to get a better idea of this system.

-Djinn

[Dark Holy Elf]

If they keep getting hit by fire, they slowly overheat until they die. However, if they keep being hit by LACK of heat, or ice, they still die. If they are repeatedly hit with fire, why would ice be a bad thing, per se? I feel that the "ice" should actually be BENEFICIAL, sliding you back within your scale of normalcy.

A problem with this, though this may be too small a nitpick for the system, is that rapid temperature change is often more damaging to humans and other materials than simple application of one temperature extreme. In other words, if you've been hit by a lot of fire spells, that ice spell that comes after is actually going to hurt MORE, even if it's dropping your temperature back to normal range.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay, so if Heat is on a sliding scale such that 50% Heat is normal range, while 1% is extreme Cold and 99% is very Hot... then how does that work for Electricity? If 50% is normal levels of Electricity, what is 1%?

Also, wouldn't -all- of the Matter category be one big sliding scale of Phases? With 1% being a Gas, 99% being Solid, and hovering around 50% would be the Liquid state?

On technicality, both Heat and Electricity have their own places on the EM spectrum, though no clue how that might work with 'Magic'...

Still, fun to think about. I'd like to see some more example breakdowns of how 'standard' elements would fit into this spectrum.

-Djinn

[Grefter]

This is a good topic, but I am excessively lazy at the moment and don't feel like adding anything besides jokes.

VSM just wants Emulsion based dual element techs in RPGs. 

Edit - Physics says no to Heat being done on a percentage based sliding scale.

[Cotigo]

No time to read more, and actually contribute to the topic, but:

WHY exactly, were the original four elements, long before RPGs were invented, Earth, Air, Water, and Fire?

If I remember correctly, to the Ancient Greeks those were the four elements of matter that composed everything.  Wouldn't be a stretch to reason that that's why.   I think the Chinese had a similar system but included Metal and other things.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I wanna say that it was earth, water, fire, wood and metal.

[TranceHime]

WHY exactly, were the original four elements, long before RPGs were invented, Earth, Air, Water, and Fire?

If I remember correctly, to the Ancient Greeks those were the four elements of matter that composed everything.  Wouldn't be a stretch to reason that that's why.   I think the Chinese had a similar system but included Metal and other things.

This. Another Greek dude however added "Quintessence" as being the fifth element.

Okay, so if Heat is on a sliding scale such that 50% Heat is normal range, while 1% is extreme Cold and 99% is very Hot... then how does that work for Electricity? If 50% is normal levels of Electricity, what is 1%?

Also, wouldn't -all- of the Matter category be one big sliding scale of Phases? With 1% being a Gas, 99% being Solid, and hovering around 50% would be the Liquid state?

On technicality, both Heat and Electricity have their own places on the EM spectrum, though no clue how that might work with 'Magic'...

Still, fun to think about. I'd like to see some more example breakdowns of how 'standard' elements would fit into this spectrum.

-Djinn

The Matter category would only be take as one sliding scale if phase changes between states actually took place. Furthermore, if one were to use that single sliding scale to gauge matter, it would only apply to objects or things that are composed solely of one state. Humans have a mixture of all three states if I am thinking along the correct lines and generally most animals. Of course, if you were to incorporate beings composed of single states and to exclude multi-state beings entirely, that's a different story. Oh god this is a headache.

I'll definitely keep an eye out for this topic however.

[Grefter]

My understanding of Qunitessence was more the idea that it was the matter that made up the mind/soul (Greek word for them blurs I believe, Otter will probably correct me).  It was far more a philosophical framework from my reading of it than a belief or an element.  This is from De Anima anyway, milage may vary the further away from Aristotle you get.

[Hunter Sopko]

Okay, so if Heat is on a sliding scale such that 50% Heat is normal range, while 1% is extreme Cold and 99% is very Hot... then how does that work for Electricity? If 50% is normal levels of Electricity, what is 1%?

My guess would be complete paralysis, since 1% of the body's normal electricity would probably mean your central nervous system has shut down. Ironically, this makes things more complicated as you get to 99% Electricity levels as you get not only paralysis as your nervous system/brain get overloaded, you're also raising the heat level as your body gets char-broiled.

[Grefter]

Oh I missed that.  If you had that little "electricity" in the body to shut down the CNS I would think your brain would have long vegetated.

[Cotigo]

Status Effect: Terri Shiavo?

EDIT:  What is the source material for this?  I'm curious as to why at all Matter should be a set of elements--if you're going to have a sliding scale of temperature (not heat) and are trying for realism, then matter would be determined in part by that--pressure, too but good luck incorporating that into the system. 

Regardless, even if you're not going for realism I'm not sure how a sliding scale for those 3 sets would work.  What does it mean if something has 50 in each state element?  Perhaps it would make more sense and be easier to deal with if Matter were simply a stat itself--the lower, the less compact molecules are (gas), the higher the more compact (solidity). 

Maybe a bit more explanation on this would clarify what you're trying to get at.

EDIT 2:

"Keep it simple" is still my MO. Unless you're going to have the PCs grossly overpower random enemies, I don't want to waste even more time in random battles by having to work down their resistance to my attacks before I can murder them. Personally, I consider combat more of a time sink/pacing mechanism/punishment device than something I actually enjoy in RPGs (that aren't Star Ocean 3).

AGREED.  This is what made XS2 almost unplayable.

[Mad Fnorder]

Honestly, I think this would work better in an Action RPG or a pure action game much better (Strangely enough). Imagine picking a team of three characters with their own set of elemental affinities and weaknesses, as well as skillsets (one fires rapidly, another may have big Area of Effect, and so forth), with the ability to switch freely between. If you teach the player the system smoothly on a curve, it can be both for world navigation and for combat.

[Veryslightlymad]

This was another one of those wacky ideas I have occasionally that keep me up at night until I spill them out. I'm not sure where it'd be implemented, but I'm picturing it working great on a 1v1 game.  Something like a 1v1 CCG, only computerized so it'd do all the work for you. Basically, I wanted a system where you could conceivably kill an opponent in several different ways, and most notably eliminate HP entirely. Could you play out a duel to the death without using hit points? This was the thought exercise and what I came up with.

I was going for.... pseudo realism. So there's a lot of excellent points (things like pressure making things solid or not, and extreme changes in temperature potentially causing even MORE damage to a system) that explain why this wouldn't really be a great system in a perfectly realistic environment.

I'll admit that I had an awful lot of difficulty with the "energy" portion of the system. I didn't know what else I could logically include that wasn't simply "heat" or whatever you want to call it, but I wanted the three aspects to all have three individual pieces.

Individual elements that we're used to......
I dunno what "White" is, Djinn. If you mean Holy, I'd consider that on the right side of the soul spectrum. Some pokemon things like Grass or poison get.... really confusing, I'll admit. It would honestly depend on what the attack did. Something like a slicing attack would be in the neighborhood of slight negative Solid (for the physical wounds) and a higher negative Liquid (for the resulting blood-loss). But that doesn't sound 100% right either, especially if you're fighting something like a water elemental. Why would a water elemental be heavily damaged by being cut? It wouldn't.

So..................... You'd have to have the attack set up in tiers. First a cutting attack on the solid, which would hit if it falls to the left of the solid's range, which, for solids could indicate a level of hardness, among other things. If the solid takes damage, then the liquid takes considerable damage as an after effect. Because it leaks out. But now it's getting way too complicated, and really, I picture this in my head with a set of bars like such:

---------[---|-----]--------
--------[-|-----]-----------
-----[-|-]------------------

--------[------|---]--------
--------------[-|-]---------
-------[------|-----]-------

------------[--|-----]------
----[------|-------]--------
-[-|---------------------]--

Right? And when an attack is selected, it goes over the bars like such (From here on I'll only use one bar)
----------[--|-|]->>---|----

The red indicates where the attack falls on the range. The green is where the current BASE is. The orange indicates both the projected "This attack will move the base here, more toward the attack's number. And if your base falls outside of your little brackets, hey, you're dead. Or destroyed, or whatever.

Some bars would be completely grayed out. Why? Because they're meaningless. Say you're a ghost. You possess no solid, physical OR gaseous presence. Attacks that target any one of those three in ANY direction, simply cannot work. You have to be killed by other means. Perhaps by being flooded with pure magic, or by having your spirit fall below the threshold that it needs in order to keep your presence on this plane.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Problem is, I really dunno how to implement the idea. It seems like the actual rules are extremely simplistic. You have 9 things which are nominally different, but ultimately follow the exact same rule. Attack outside the range or you cause no effect.  The farther outside the range you hit, the more you PULL toward the attack. If the base falls outside of the range, you die/lose.  Three rules.

This is why I picture it something like an electronic CCG. Because CCGs work on the principle that you have very few CORE rules, and then any other rules are explicitly on the card that creates them.

You could have a wide bank of characters with all ranges of the 9 elements/stats, and a wide variety of attacks that indicate what kind of characters can use them. "Must have a base heat between 15 and 35." "Total Magic range must be greater than 60"

[DjinnAndTonic]

I think you explained it quite well, it sounds like it would be an awesome computerized CCG-type game. I'd play it.

This was another one of those wacky ideas I have occasionally that keep me up at night until I spill them out. I'm not sure where it'd be implemented, but I'm picturing it working great on a 1v1 game.  Something like a 1v1 CCG, only computerized so it'd do all the work for you. Basically, I wanted a system where you could conceivably kill an opponent in several different ways, and most notably eliminate HP entirely. Could you play out a duel to the death without using hit points? This was the thought exercise and what I came up with.

Only thing I noticed here was that you haven't entirely thrown out the concept of HP... More like you've given every character 9 HP bars, any of which can cause death. Still... it's a very unique way to view HP and I'd like to see what more could be done with it. ^_^

-Djinn

[metroid composite]

Also, wouldn't -all- of the Matter category be one big sliding scale of Phases? With 1% being a Gas, 99% being Solid, and hovering around 50% would be the Liquid state?

Thing is, liquid/gas/solid are actually seperate states.  You're either liquid or solid; there's no in-between.  You're either gas or you're liquid; there's no in-between.  (I believe there's technically a plasma state as well, though it will overlap with Electricity a lot).

On energy:
Magnetism is interesting here (yes, it is the electromagnetic force, but it's not necessarily electricity in that electrons may not be flowing).
Kinetic energy is interesting--in that it will determine how hard you hit.
Temperature is basically kinetic energy on a molecular level.
Chemical energy has potential uses--for instance, gasoline has a lot of molecular energy since you can ignite it to get a bunch of energy; batteries also store a buch of energy in molecules; sugar is a more nature-oriented molecular energy.
Sound energy is good stuff; scream at the right level and cause stuff to shatter
Light energy--can't forget laser beams.
Elastic/Potential energy--good old Slingshots/rolling rocks down hills.

[Talaysen]

Only thing I noticed here was that you haven't entirely thrown out the concept of HP... More like you've given every character 9 HP bars, any of which can cause death. Still... it's a very unique way to view HP and I'd like to see what more could be done with it. ^_^

It's not HP really at all.  You can try and make a distant parallel, but it's not the same thing.

Anyways, I like the idea, but it'd be extremely difficult to polish and balance.

[Veryslightlymad]

Also, wouldn't -all- of the Matter category be one big sliding scale of Phases? With 1% being a Gas, 99% being Solid, and hovering around 50% would be the Liquid state?

Thing is, liquid/gas/solid are actually seperate states.  You're either liquid or solid; there's no in-between.  You're either gas or you're liquid; there's no in-between.  (I believe there's technically a plasma state as well, though it will overlap with Electricity a lot).

On energy:
Magnetism is interesting here (yes, it is the electromagnetic force, but it's not necessarily electricity in that electrons may not be flowing).
Kinetic energy is interesting--in that it will determine how hard you hit.
Temperature is basically kinetic energy on a molecular level.
Chemical energy has potential uses--for instance, gasoline has a lot of molecular energy since you can ignite it to get a bunch of energy; batteries also store a buch of energy in molecules; sugar is a more nature-oriented molecular energy.
Sound energy is good stuff; scream at the right level and cause stuff to shatter
Light energy--can't forget laser beams.
Elastic/Potential energy--good old Slingshots/rolling rocks down hills.

I really just want three energy spots, but I'm happy to have any input here. I still dunno how I feel on electricity.

As for my intent with solid/liquid/gas: A living being would have to have all three. I am not a solid. I am a solid bag that covers up an inner amount of gas and liquid.

[TranceHime]

Also, wouldn't -all- of the Matter category be one big sliding scale of Phases? With 1% being a Gas, 99% being Solid, and hovering around 50% would be the Liquid state?

Thing is, liquid/gas/solid are actually seperate states.  You're either liquid or solid; there's no in-between.  You're either gas or you're liquid; there's no in-between.  (I believe there's technically a plasma state as well, though it will overlap with Electricity a lot).

Yep, there is a plasma state and yes, it's pretty much got a large connection with electricity in a way, due to the nature of plasma being ionized gas. Most of the known universe is composed of plasma, as well, in any case.