Incompetent Mafia - GAME OVER (Game Topic)

[Deltaflyer]

I didnt ask everyone to be on all the time, I asked people to at least recognize that we are nearing the halfway stage and should post.

I get angry when I ask the questions and people call it poor play. Why, just once can't someone TELL me why it is poor play??

[Xanth]

And I'm just saying that it's odd that you'd pick on me for it when people let it slide all of the time so long as it's followed up, especially in conjunction with such a patently daft opinion of me. Honestly, I was worrying about drawing flak for how haphazard my posts became towards the end of the day as a result of my sporadic connection, but you've listed a bunch of reasons that just don't apply to me (bar the minor meta-gaming slip as part of trying to pull Remo into line, which I corrected as soon as I spotted my own error).

[Deltaflyer]

And like I said Xanth, I am not ruling anything or anyone out of being scum.

[Xanth]

Then please at least consider me for my actual weaknesses rather than ones you have imagined.

[Captain K.]

Day 2 Votecount.  With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Carthrat: Deltaflyer2k8 (1)
Deltaflyer2k8:  Sopko, Sir Alex (2)
AndrewRogue:  Lady Door (1)

Once again, I am going to repeat that you should not assume anything about the setup.  While I'm not going to give out details on what exactly Stoolpigeon and Corrupt Politician do, do not assume that they correspond to any existing archetypes from other games.  I made up all the roles from scratch, so the likelyhood of them matching with "standard" Mafia roles is slim.  Use your eyes and ears, and forget what you know from previous games.  As Yoda said, "Unlearn."

[Deltaflyer]

Xanth, I have no way of knowing if you really are experienceing internet problems. You have no real way of proving it. I am not saying you are scum. I am saying that you are suspicious.

[Lady Door]

We've still got at least 4 hours until the 12 hours in mark, and once we reach that we'll be at 1/3 of the way into the day. That's more a factor of a really short Day phase than people dawdling about. That's what I dislike about the call for action. It's simply too early to expect to have heard from everyone.

The "poor play" aspect is painting people black because they can't post when you want them to. Just because Andrew and Xanth haven't/hadn't shown up doesn't mean they're scum just because you decided that 6 hours into the game was enough time for everyone to have appeared, realized the day started, read and posted.

And here: is Xanth suspicious because of things he's done, or because of his posting schedule? The latter leans to "poor play" because you can't say that when he HAS posted, it's been useful. Has his alleged internet problem made a significant difference -- has it kept him from making a key decision, from posting an argument he posted, from participating in a pivotal argument when he otherwise would have been able to be present and active? If the answer is "no," then why does it matter what he says about why he isn't around at such and such time?

[Deltaflyer]

True, but what have we accomplished so far?

[Deltaflyer]

Notice how andrew didnt post?

Sleep calls now but ill be back, 8:00 GMT

[Lady Door]

*fails at English* "you can't say that when he HAS posted, it's been useful" should be "you can't say that when he HAS posted, it hasn't been useful" and I should use fewer double negatives because apparently they just confuse me. Also, "from posting an argument he posted" should be "from posting an argument he said he would post." Go me.

*takes off her editor hat and puts on her This is Serious Business hat*

Carthrat: Bears mention because maybe-confirmed-townie-with-unknown-role said so. I'm still scratching my head over this, but if taking the Stool Pigeon at face, he was town, and had something to say about Carth. There is a WIFOMy argument to rival all WIFOMy arguments as to whether he's trustworthy or even on our side, but I'm going to go with our side because the flip says Town and assume for the sake of argument that he knew something the rest of us didn't.

I have a hard time reading much off of what he posts. I agree with a lot of his points. My only real concern is that he seems to hang back a bit much. He points out a lot of things but doesn't really do much about them, if that makes sense? Noting this, yes he did this, and so on. He's good at drumming up other people to do things, but somewhat passive about everything else once his point has been made. Saying that the cases on Delta "are based on a dumb move that townies have made before" and that he looks silly-for-trying-too-hard, but that Remo's "defense" speaks for itself (his defense amounting to "oh well, looks like I'm going to die, guess I may as well vote Delta") and his resignation is enough... that strikes me as odd.

Townies have folded under serious pressure before. In fact, I'd be surprised if it didn't happen at least once in just about every game. It is another one of those things I would consider to be a dumb move that townies have made before and are likely to make again. Why is it suddenly so much more damning for Remo than the scatter-shot and off-the-wall posts by Delta are for Delta? The concentration on it looks somewhat hypocritical against his criticism for smodge playing the "hunt bad players" game over the "hunt scum" game.

Also just plain don't like the "speaks for itself" for reasons I've mentioned before -- townies making assumptions is an easy way for scum to get away with implications, preventing them from catching themselves up in explanations. Explanations are what helps town, as much because the logic can sway other townies to see scumminess for what it is as because it's harder for scum to explain why not-scum is scummy (when they know full well it's not the case). In other words, you can't catch scum in a lie if all they have to do is point, later to claim "I never said that!" when it turns around on them.

Next post: Delta!

(And yes, I did notice. Can you tell me it wasn't any of those perfectly innocent scenarios I suggested, or prove that it was any of the ones you suggested? This is about as futile an argument as the whole "I interpret that post restrictions are possible"/"WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION?" argument you were having with Soppy.)

[Lady Door]

Delta: The points that have been made previously regarding the weirdness and futility of jester speculation are... eh. I can see where it comes from, he didn't try and convince everyone away from the lynch because of that wild speculation (though he didn't try to go anywhere else, either), and otherwise I think it was a silly-but-not-malicious mistake. The biggest thing from Day 1 that bugs me is leaving the joke vote on Carthrat for so long. I cannot figure out why he didn't unvote and vote someone else. Why didn't he vote for Remo? If he couldn't vote for Remo because he feared Jester, why didn't he find another direction to go? He is just very... reactionary. And that's problematic, but I think it's problematic more in a townie-is-easily-influenced sense than a malicious anti-town sense.

The worst part was the attempt to hammer near the end of the day. No warning, after waffling and asking for advice, and he tries to drop the hammer. That is -not- a good thing to do, not when there's over an hour left and people are actively posting enough to ninja such a short post.

Today, he's trying to drum up conversation. Good! I don't agree with the way he's doing it, though. First post: "sucks about Remo, but let's go with what he said!" ... what about the reason you voted for him? How does that make you rethink the day before, or does it? Again, very passive: "why didn't Remo convince me he was town?" "Hey, Rat, why don't you convince me you're town?"

"I am town, okay?" is never a sound argument. Of course, proving you're town makes no sense, either. Asking someone to do it, or being asked to do it, is an exercise in futility. There is no one thing that makes town town or scum scum.

So what is it you want from Carth to "prove" he's a townie, if the only defense you have for yourself is "Look, guys, I'm town, okay?"?

Also really not liking the "if X doesn't do Y, they must be scum" because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's extrapolating some of the things we use to identify scum -- scum lurk and don't post -- and accelerating it to an extreme. Just because someone doesn't show up while you're watching doesn't make them scum. He DOES need to post, I definitely agree with you there. But "If Andrew doesn't post, he's scum. <wait>. Oh look, he didn't post! *meaningful!*" doesn't make him scum.

Next post: Alex! And some conclusions to be drawn from these things.

[AndrewRogue]

At the moment, I'm only inclined to give Remo's parting words so much credit because I am not quite sure of what his role actually entails. I really wish he could have given us something more to go on than just saying to watch one particular person. I would obviously like to hear Carth's thoughts on the subject in general, but hey.

Delta: What exactly would you like out of Carth? You ask him to prove he's a townie, but I'm more curious as to how he's expected to actually do that in your eyes, and what, beyond Remo's last words, stand out to you. Inclined to agree with Alex here on your hammer attempt feeling a bit dodgy. You do a lot to try and show how much you aren't interested in hammering him (and also lose track of the vote count despite being aware of it earlier). Adding in the new "scum post limitation fiasco" (especially after the affair with Remo yesterday!) leaves me absolutely perplexed.

Also, your generalized assumptions about what being online but not IMMEDIATELY OMG posting in Mafia is... specious to say the least. The answer, sometimes, is as simple as the fact that I come to the boards for other things and am not immediately concerned with posting.

Frankly, your posts seem particularly like a scatter-shot attack, striking out wherever as it strikes your fancy. You aren't really pursuing any real avenue of attack, and you are constantly attempting to reinforce your own towniness in a sort of ham-handed way. Its really getting to the point where I'm not sure what to make of it. So tell me a bit about. Pursue an attack a little ways for moi?

##Vote: Delta

[Carthrat]

I got no particular thoughts to share on Remo's last words at the moment.

Sopko: Yeah look I know, probably better than anyone, how it feels so good to say 'well we have to lynch him, look at all these mistakes he's making, and we can't trust he's town making them over scum!' Having ignored my better instincts to push lynches like that through time and time again, only to meet constantly with mislynch has impacted my judgement. I stand by saying that it's impossible to tell anything about Delta on day one because of who he is. Call me Ciato, I guess, but I'm finding the sheer blatant ignorance of such important personal traits to be surprising. I don't mean to suggest that we should base all lynches on such things, but surely the more extreme examples are worth noting?

With that said, he's really kinda pushing it today. It's one thing to come after me on rolecrap, another thing to constantly misquote me.

Also, Rat, how have I rolefished? I have not posted one post that has said 'hurr durr, put your hands up if your a scum' No. Just no.

Didn't say you did, was referring to Alex.

Rat: Given Remo's last sentence, I am still inclined to go for him. Also, he has few posts yesterday, perhaps another post-restricted person? He said that I am: Attacking town under fire with jester theory? What? How was I attacking town under fire? Did Rat know that Remo was town for sure?

If you read the entire post you are referring to here, you'd realise I posited two theories for scum-you based on Remo's possible alignments. I was certainly not making a declaration as to his alignment (and for crying out loud, I was voting Remo!)

Don't get me started on the 'no rat, you must prove you are not the demons' thing, other people have covered why that is stupid quite well. Going 'HEY GUYZ I'M TOWN HONEST' is of course foolishness. I am very leery of him at this point, but my general reticience to lynch him is stopping me. As well as that...

As I mentioned earlier, I accused Alex of rolefishing before (not Delta!) Am doing so again, allow me to quote him!

Delta, my man!  You seem very gung-ho this game.  Very.  Possibly like you didn't draw vanilla townie for once.

Don't see town-Alex dropping such obvious cues, especially when the target involved is so volatile. He also brushed it off earlier today, evidently without checking what I meant. Not happy.

This is pretty much exactly the behavior patterns I'd expect to see from scum!Delta and scum!Remo.  One of these is definitely our best lynch right now; I favor Delta as his statement matches up with scum trying to exploit townie Remo, but scum!Remo is certainly also very likely.

He is playing more scum than... ahem... this time around, I think.  Especially compared to Remo, who is doing about the same thing but the other way around.

It doesn't seem like he was really that sold over Delta compared to Remo, and I'd like him to explain exactly what he meant here.

Going "DELTA IS ACTING AS I WOULD EXPECT" at the start of today looks pretty suss to me (seriously? You expect actions from Delta in advance? ahahaha what) and the more I think about his rolefishing the more of a blatant attempt to try and trick information out of Delta it seems to me. ##Vote: Alex, explain yourself!

On another note, LadyDoor seems to be taking a oneliner thing from me out of proportion. I did say 'my thoughts should be clear', but I did follow that up with a brief explanation and she's looking way too hard at that. Call it writing for effect, if anything.

[EvilTom]

Just checking in - apparently the day started two minutes after I went to sleep. And it's Sunday so I slept in
I'll be posting once I catch up on everything, and have some breakfast and a cuppa

[Captain K.]

Day 2 Votecount.  6 to lynch.

Carthrat:  Deltaflyer2k8 (1)
Deltaflyer2k8:  Sopko, Sir Alex, AndrewRogue (3)
AndrewRogue:  Lady Door (1)
Sir Alex:  Carthrat (1)

[Lady Door]

Feeling a bit fatigued and seriously need to catch up on editing and school work, bleh, so this is likely my last "big" post for a bit.

--

Alex: The very first post (okay, technically second) is weird. Remo's "could be overly eager and speculating" versus Delta's "you seem very gung-ho, possibly like you didn't draw vanila townie for once" seems like an odd distinction to make. Why pick on Delta's zeal and not Remo's? Because Delta's is more flashy? Less substantive? What?

Then there's "my vote is staying on Delta, QED" and "Why don't the rest of you vote for Delta now?" This would be more weird if I wasn't expecting Alex to pick a target and stick with him until he's dead or somehow "confirmed" enough to warrant heading for another target.

Says "I'm willing to let lurkers pass 'cause even if they're scum, they're scum with things that can bite them in the ass, so it'll take care of itself and instead we have scum taking a pro-scum stance." It seems to be setting up a contrast between lurkers and pro-scum stances, but isn't lurking itself a pro-scum stance?

What did you mean by "I favor Delta as his statement matches up with scum trying to exploit townie Remo"? And how does that work if both Remo and Delta were to be scum (as you said "this is pretty much exactly the behavior patterns I'd expect to see from scum!Delta and scum!Remo")?

Today, again, "behaving exactly like I would expect scum!Delta to." What exactly does that mean? What is it you expect town!Delta to do that would be so different?

The additional "I do agree ... for all the things our bacony flier has done, rolefishing I wouldn't say is one of them" is kind of odd. I didn't think the sentence was that complicated, but I guess the commas tripped people up. I admit when it appeared two people had misread it, I wondered, but... really? At WORST the subject was ambiguous, meaning it could refer to Alex or Delta; if it doesn't fit Delta, wouldn't you then extrapolate it to apply to the other person in that sentence -- ie, Alex?

Otherwise, Carth's proddings are along the same lines as my curiosities, so I'll wait to see how Alex responds to those.

--

Carth: I'm not referring to this post alone so much as I am that post and this post. In the former, you did indeed respond "my thoughts should be clear, but here they are in plain text" to my question. I appreciate that. The second post, though, is where you condemn Remo because what he did "speaks for itself, really." Leaving things open to interpretation like that is what bugs me -- maybe it does, but maybe you're just vaguely hinting at things and hoping people will find their own badness to fill in the blanks. It happens, as with people trying to find a case on you based on the very basic and non-informative "beware of Carthrat!" Remo left us with.

Andrew posted, so there's no real need for the pressure vote I had on him:

##UNVOTE: AndrewRogue

Still not satisfied with his input, mainly because it's lacking in original quality as much as it is quantity, but it's not a dire threat at the mo so I'll let it go until there's more to grab from what he does or doesn't do (or less compelling cases).

--

I don't really feel comfortable posting a vote on any of the three people I've talked about just yet because I feel like I'm posting in a vacuum -- everyone who's had something to say has essentially said the same things about the same people, or else argued with them about their cases. Nothing terribly shocking has happened. I feel like I'm missing something.

Right now, I think I'd be leaning toward Alex, though Rat and Delta are also possibilities. I want to hear more from more people, so I look forward to the time when everyone else gets a chance to chime in. With a 36-hour day, though, I won't be waiting too long. Prolly just going to take a short break until later tonight (~16-18 hours until deadline).

[Smodge13]

Ok start of day 2.
Posts may end up being wall of texty and less frequent, My HDD just started making clicking noises and died, won't be able to buy a new one until at least tuesday.

Delta - frustrates me greatly, at the present moment i am back again to thinking its just really really bad town play.
Regardless though it's quite easy to recount.

Points against Delta
1. Page 1. Even out of joke vote phase he still makes jokes with bard and his posts are in general pointless - Padding post count.

I do grasp the seiriousness of the situation. I just bring light hearted joy to the mood.

I concur with Xanth on Remo's post. He has said something that has not been stated to us. He should confirm why he believed this to be true.

2. Page 2. Posts yet again but this time with a point, which is just to say he concurs with Remo/Xanth. blatant me-to-ism.

I have a sense of humor which seems to make me scummy. Okay.

The reason that I only pushed remo for an answer without voting for him is because I think that things this early in the game although they are dangerous, should be used for benefit later. However, he does not seem unhappy with this train being on him. Consider that he could be a jester or a role that is similar?

3. Page 3. Speculates on Remo may be a jester - leads to endless WIFOMS

4.  Page 4. posts 3 times all useless, 1 once again mentioning the jester role, another accusing remo of OMGus.

My gut feeling says that I should lynch Remo. Please, as he is not here, someone sway my mind.

5. Page 4 . "Please scum, sway my mind"

Well, I am just going to put the hammer down on Remo here. It is my gut feeling. If I am wrong,  and remo is town, we will have to deal with it in the next day period. Ive been scared to post this because I have never hammered someone before. Ever.

##VOTE: Remo

Also, Smodge, I am not insisting that everyone is a jester, please get your facts right.

Hammer.

6. Page 4. Attempts to end the day and hammer early........

And sister wants to get on and do her homework >.>, posting this for now, continuation and with a point when she gets off and i can use the pc for a while.

[Smodge13]

Ok back to it.

Day 2.
Delta seems to have improved a fair bit (apart from the beginning where he voted rat straight away).
At least now he's commenting on thoughts of other people and looking around a bit more.

Delta i am once again thinking is just town playing badly, most of the points against him can be classed as poor town play the only thing that really gets me is the attempt to hammer before end of day, especially when majority is not needed to hammer.
Day 2 delta has stepped up a bit and seems to be commenting on others today he seems a bit mroe protown than on day 1.

Alex

Day 1.

Delta, my man!  You seem very gung-ho this game.  Very.  Possibly like you didn't draw vanilla townie for once.  And yet I do not see you actually contributing anything besides "Hey guys I concur with Xanth" and questioning Remo... without moving your vote to him.  How's it goin?

1. Rolefish combined with metagaming, also how exactly is Delta being gung-ho at this point in the game? The only things even close to scumhunting he had posted by this point were numbers 1 and 2 on my earlier list.

2. For the rest of day 1 this is pretty much all we hear from Alex about any of the other players, it took Alex a while for his initial post and after this one we don't hear much from him other than comments on game mechanics.

So, how do you feel about Delta digging deeper and coming up with "Don't lynch Remo, he's scummy but I want to 'use' that later on, also he might be a jester, don't vote him guys"?

I vaguely agree about Excal and the other lurkers, but in this particular game and implied setup I'm more willing than usual to let lurking pass for a while, since there are (presumably) a ton of scum but with things that can bite them badly as time goes on anyway.  Especially when we have someone here taking what I see as a pretty blatantly pro-scum stance.

First off I would like to say that I am kinda lazy and am usually only willing to analyze those with statements against me. It is much easier for me since I know my own alignment instead of playing guessing games with the accusations against other people.
etc etc OMGUS strategy

This is a very, very... suboptimal... way to play that does not help town and can be very easily exploited by scum.  It will never lead you to scum since scum can simply take note of the fact that you play this way and leave you alone.  In fact if you are town it makes you appear to be scum to everybody else, for obvious reasons. 
Don't think he's town, though.  Between this and Delta I am thinking something's up.  This is pretty much exactly the behavior patterns I'd expect to see from scum!Delta and scum!Remo.  One of these is definitely our best lynch right now; I favor Delta as his statement matches up with scum trying to exploit townie Remo, but scum!Remo is certainly also very likely.

Day 2. Alex goes after Delta yet again, this time he at least looks at rat and also the lurkers

##Vote: Alex

Alex went after Delta from the start, from the beginning i have said Delta would be an easy lynch, i am starting to think this may be the case and exactly what a scum-Alex would exploit.
Day 1 he goes after Delta and barely comments on anything else whatsoever.
Day 2 he goes straight after Delta yet again with only minor comments on Rat/Lurkers.

So early rolefish + focuses on 1 target only.

Rat and the pigeon
Remo's last words appeared to me to be that he was given information and that Rat is probably scum.
This however doesn't mean we should lynch rat on the spot.
Reading over rats posts i cant find anything to fault him really, then again we all know a scum rat is very hard to actually spot
Complete nuetral read on rat (would be town read if nto for Remo's words)

Dread Thomas

Smodge: I'm logged into MSN, but I do other things too you know, other than Mafia.
You're rather narrow-mindedly aiming at me, when I've got as many posts as Excal and Andrew. However you are ignoring another fact; I have as many serious posts as Strago.
Why have you decided to ignore those others, and focus on me? Is it purely based on metagame that you saw me logged in?

Ok, so now I'm posting. Now what are you going to do?
You've spent the whole game so far "waiting for me to post".. and now that I have, you're going to remove your vote right? Stalling like that is a complete waste of time, it allows you to avoid meaningful input on the Remo train. And your commend about Delta being an easy day 1 lynch is weird, when the train is on Remo. That's rather out of place.
Your post here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36100#msg36100
Seems intent on summarizing, rather than providing any actual insight.
You accuse me of not posting. But I've now posted.
I accuse you of posting, but not posting anything useful.
##Unvote: Remo, ##Vote: Smodge; Discuss.

First serious post is an OMGus, followed by the rest of the day a tunnelvision towards myself, not many comments on others/the trains at all.

Neutral read with all this it does make me uneasy, but whether its just Tom being Tom or not i can't tell.

Sopko/Xanth/LD/Strago - So far can see nothing wrong with these 4 nuetral - town read, all 4 have a fair bit of content in their posts and actively discuss things.

Andrew - needs to post alot more.

[EvilTom]

Delta
I agree with Smodge about Delta's fluffyness. People have already talked about why he keeps bringing up the jester role, and whilst I find it bizarre I can't really say whether it's relevant to his scummyness. The issue of bad play vs scummyness has come up once again (partially in attribute to his obsession with the jester), but I think there's something more important to note;
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36241#msg36241 - that's the post where he starts going after Remo, and whilst his arguments really suck, he does a good job of dragging Remo through the mud. It's his attacks on Remo in particular that really highlight his scummyness to me, rather than his general behaviour.
This post in particular, following the other one is an absolute killer: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36244#msg36244
As  for day 2, he comes out straight off the bat with "OK RAT PROVE YOU ARE TOWN OR DIE". I...don't know where to start. Soppy does a decent job here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36405#msg36405 , and http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36484#msg36484 LD does a good job of explaining the logical falalcies in Delta's demands, so I won't repeat that either.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36426#msg36426 - This is a real token effort here. Such a skeleton list - it has roughly 10-20 words on each person. For a summary, that's really tragic. The whole "POST MORE" thing is just silly, considering his own posts are made up of fluff and nothing. And dredging up all the meta-game talk, when we've been told by the mod not to bother because the game has been designed to prevent that, really seems like an even bigger way to waste time.

Lady Door
On the one hand, LD has contributed quite a lot, but I'm worried about several things. At: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36223#msg36223 there's a great big list, answering each post individually; it sounds good in theory, but doesn't do a whole lot to present an overall argument or opinion. Just agreeing and disagreeing with things isn't constructive on its own merits. But still, the efforts seem genuine at least, and they're definately better than Delta's token posts.
What's encouraging for me though, is that at the moment she's going after Andrew for all the same reasons I would, so that helps my opinion of her. Edit: But by the time I've posted this, she's removed that vote. I don't like the way she's so easily satisfied by Andrew's token effort

Still not satisfied with his input, mainly because it's lacking in original quality as much as it is quantity, but it's not a dire threat at the mo so I'll let it go until there's more to grab from what he does or doesn't do (or less compelling cases).

- seems rather weak, considering there was no other vote put down after. If you're withdrawing your vote to go after more dire threats, then why haven't you done so? I'm not really buying the thing about

I don't really feel comfortable posting a vote on any of the three people I've talked about just yet because I feel like I'm posting in a vacuum -- everyone who's had something to say has essentially said the same things about the same people, or else argued with them about their cases. Nothing terribly shocking has happened. I feel like I'm missing something.

- there's plenty of information to make a judgment; this could just be a playstyle difference, but removing your vote from Andrew whilst saying he's a problem, and then sitting around idling raises alarms for me.

Smodge
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36271#msg36271 - verry worrying. Barely a couple of words on each person, seems to really hate me, and then votes Delta. What? "Tom can wait until day 2." - I really don't like the way he sets it up as "lynch delta now, then Tom on day 2".
His recent posts have been a bit all over the place, I'm not sure what to make of them but he's certainly stopped trailing me. "Delta i am once again thinking is just town playing badly" - then why would you want him lynched if you think he's town? There's a lot of inconsistencies here with smodge.
I still stand by all of my previous points, but those were based on day 1 arguments so there's better things out there right now which need following up which are a lot more important. Such as these day 2 problems:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36505#msg36505 - Smodge, why are you dredging up my post about you from page 2 of the game, and completely ignoring my more substantial arguments against you which I made at the end of page 3? You had plenty of time to answer those points from my first post earlier, and now you're doing so? What about my post at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36180#msg36180 here; when are you going to address those points - tomorrow? What's with the massive delay?
You can't just dismiss all these points against you as pure OMGUS, why aren't you answering them?

Alex
Once again with the tunnelvision on Delta, but it's not like delta hasn't been sending out big scum signals, so I don't blam him on that one. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36417#msg36417 post here - doesn't really say a whole lot. It actually seems kind of weak, considering how strong he started out the game. That's not really a tell or anything, but I would also like to know how he thinks he's able to predict how scum!Delta would act. That was an odd statement. Aside from that, nothing terribly stands out.

Carthrat
I can never read Rat well, and Remo's last words are worrying. He's been hanging back a little, but that hasn't stopped him going offensive here and there. I find that to be more or less in line wth previous strategies of his, but I know that he changes his gameplay every game. So I'm not really getting anything more than neutral from him.
What really concerns me about this whole Remo flip thing though, is "I got no particular thoughts to share on Remo's last words at the moment." ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36490#msg36490 )
It really leaps out at me that he says 'at the moment'; I'm not asking for detail of your role (obvious reasons why rolefishing is bad), but why say 'at the moment' at all? It sounds like you're alluding to something that we should take for granted. I'm not sure what to make of it, because it's all WIFOM, but it's something I'm keeping in mind.

Andrew
Andy gets my lurker award, now that Excal is out of the picture. His posts are few and far between, and when he makes comments he's only echoing the current hot topics.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36231#msg36231 - here in particular, his first proper post, is only repeating what others have said. The last line (asking Delta to provide more information on why there might be a jester in the game) just sounds like he's encouraging Delta to dig himself deeper, rather than a genuine question.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36486#msg36486 - his only other post here also seems like a token effort to participate, only repeating what others have already said. He does call for some positive action from delta which is a plus, but only barely.

Strago
Only slightly better than Andrew, in terms of lurking. He's actually made a few decent points here and there. I think he's in a sleeping timezone at the moment, so I'll give him some more time to post today before I throw down any solid opinions.

Important conclusion
There are issues going on with Rat after Remo's flip, but I don't think voting for him isn't going to pressure any answers out of him. Meanwhile there's already a bunch of people on the Delta train, and we're still fairly early in day 2, so I don't want to push that towards hammer just yet. As I said earlier, smodge is being very dodgy; accusing me of OMGUS rather than addressing my arguments.. it sounds like he's hiding something. He's pretty bad right now, but AndrewRogue is worse, for his lurking and providing the bare minimum of content and seemingly getting away with it.
##Vote: AndrewRogue

But I'm also going to FoS Lady Door; she unvoted Andrew after he made such a token input, but she also acknowledged that his weak presence wasn't good enough. It strikes me as very dodgy to call someone on something they need to be called on, and unvote them because there are bigger threats, without actually going after any of those bigger threats. Accepting weakness and unvoting is not something that should be overlooked.

Argh my brain is fried after all that.

[Lady Door]

My big post yesterday had to be notes because I didn't have time to note said things and consolidate it in an explanation or what have you. It's unfortunate, but I do have school during the week which means limited time. Even if I didn't pull it together in paragraph form, I still did focus what I had to say as much as the format allowed without being tunnel-visioned. Did the best I could do with limited time, as it were.

My vote on Andrew today was to pressure him to talk. He talked, and he posted some thoughts. They were in a lot of ways repetitions of what's been said before, but it's -something- and, like I said, my vote was pressure for him to talk. He talked. So I removed my vote because it had no business being there when all my thoughts/analysis/concern were primarily for other people. Wouldn't it have been weird if I'd spent three long posts talking about Carth, Delta and Alex and left my vote on Andrew? I would've called me on something like that. LaL is well and good, but I think it stands secondary to actively pursuing scum instead, so call that a playstyle difference. Early in the day I don't see much of a problem with leaving your vote empty as long as you're actively discussing things.

That I didn't place a vote was fairly token itself. I stated who I was leaning toward voting on. I stated I'd be back in a couple hours to place a vote based on what happened in between. I want responses to things. It was still pretty early and light on activity when I'd finished posting what I'd had to say about people. I was hoping Carth or Alex would have something to say about it, or that the rest of the group would make an appearance/put some commentary in. A bit, but not as much as I was hoping, and nothing alas from the people I am most interested in hearing from right now.

Currently I have the most questions and concerns with Alex, so that's where my vote's gonna go:

##VOTE: Sir Alex

Am curious about smodge's reasoning, though. Care to explain "appeared to me to be that he was given information and that Rat is probably scum" and "This however doesn't mean we should lynch rat on the spot"? Why the hell not if you believe Remo's post indicates Rat is probably scum? Why is it enough to make you vote Alex that Alex has focused on a single target he thinks is scummy and made one post early game that appeared to rolefish, especially versus Tom's focusing on a single target he thinks is scummy and alleged OMGUS?

[Ranmilia]

Slept again, awake again.

Ah, so Rat was talking about ME rolefishing?  Yeah, I thought he meant Delta.  That line was a bit of a throwaway joke on my part referencing the alleged large number of scum and implying that Delta was happy because he drew scum.

Which... um.  The case on me still seems to be "Is pushing Delta's lynch"?  Uh, guilty as charged, I guess?  I think he is scum, I have good reasons for thinking he is scum, I have outlined them, I am not sure how pushing for scum to be lynched is scummy.  There is nothing I can do to defend myself from this charge, apparently, except to back off of Delta, and thaaat is not going to happen and I am sure you can follow where my train of thought goes from there.

Pushing AWAY from an obvious scum lynch now, on the sole basis of "this guy has tunnel vision let's lynch him instead" or "this guy lives in Britain and doesn't post 24/7 HE MUST BE SCUM WITH A POST RESTRICTION"?  What.  Seriously, what.  These arguments are pretty absurd, the former admittedly less so than the latter, but...  uh, he's scum.  Lynch him.

On to the meat of the case, now - yes, absolutely, I think I can predict roughly how people will act as scum that is different from how they act as town, that is how I particularly roll and in a broad sense how the game is played.  Delta himself is not exactly the most unpredictable man in the universe. 

If Delta was town I would have expected him to:
A: Vote against Remo immediately.  Easy case, based on the sort of tangle of words people like Delta tend to buy into.
B: Even if he didn't vote against Remo, not say "Remo is scummy but I want to leave him alive for later"
C: OMGUS heavily when he became the second day 1 case
D: Not immediately jump on Rat day 2 based (apparently) solely on Remo's deathpost
E: Even if he did, to actually find reasons to stay on Rat rather than start throwing suspicion around like candy and try to paint black on Xanth and Andrew while not even talking about Rat.
F: Not state as an assumed fact that scum have post restrictions.

Everything else he has done, yes, I can chalk up to him being Delta, but it is his votes that tell the tale and they definitely look more like he is being informed by buddies and trying to follow a rudimentary scum strategy.

Now let's talk about the setup a little.  We know exactly one thing for sure, and that is that there are a lot of scum. 
Q:  "So Alex why are you only concentrating on one guy?"
A:  "Because if the scum really have that many people out there, and I do trust Captain K at least that far, they are going to have a very big hand in discussion.  Getting the first one of them lynched is going to take a Herculean effort because they can drum up lots of things to steer a case away (exactly like how people steered onto Remo instead of Delta), but once that happens you can look back at the links and see who defended them, who tried to agree with them, etc.  So, focus on the one you think most likely, and as a second priority, most informative."

Q: "Hey what about Bardiche, we do actually have a scum flip you know, what do you get out of his posts and connections?"
A: I get that he was on Remo the whole time and tried to make Delta look better and pat him on the head as well as direct the deadline lynch away from Delta to Remo. 

Other people I think are probably scum right now:
- At least some of the folks defending Delta, or rather pointedly NOT defending him but attacking me for no reason other than that I am attacking Delta, for obvious reasons.  For other obvious reasons I would like to get Delta lynched and flipped before starting to sort these out.  This would be Smodge, Rat and Door in roughly that order of suspicion, Door least as she's at least looking thoughtful and helpful and Smodge most because he's literally just gone "Huge list post, rolefish and stays on Delta!  Vote!"
- Xanth, maybe, for listposting without voting, similar to Bardiche in Succinct, plus Delta's a little too obvious attempt to start a BS "case" on him.  BS cases on people tend to make them fallaciously look better to others.

[Ranmilia]

Oh yeah and I would also expect scum!Delta to be defended by his scumbuddies saying "He's an easy lynch, you are bad for pushing him!" unqualified and not thinking or talking about anything in terms of him actually being scummy or townie.  Just food for thought.

[AndrewRogue]

Holy crap walls of text everywhere!

I know its dense, but we've had success with condensing post material in the past. Any chance of getting some of that this time around?

Anyhow, I feel the need to echo Alex right here. Think what you might of Delta, but this particular approach of his feels not only particularly uncharacteristic, but decidedly scummy.

Carth: Later, perhaps, you will have something to say?

Alex: I dunno. I'm inclined to lean to his side currently. His points have been fairly solid, although Lady Door spins some interesting views on him. Can't quite decide which of them is giving me the problem yet, though. Something about their current interactions inclines me to think that one of them might be scum, but I haven't really settled on a strong stance on either yet.

I still stand by my earlier assessment. Delta's crossed the line from newbie to scum several times. He is really the best candidate for the day.

[Ranmilia]

Sorry.  I will attempt to be more concise in the future.  Herculean effort required and all.

[Deltaflyer]

I am not acting any differently than I am in any other game. I am not scum, I am stating my points, I am not being a newbie (which I am not anyway, considering this is my fifth game here).

Consider this:

Bardiche said I was drawing scum to his vote. Lady door said this was scum-like behaviour only AFTER Bard flipped scum. Care to elaborate on this please?

Also, consider that Bard was trying to get me out of the game. He was scum and scum may wanna get rid of the bad posters simply so that they can focus on you people, of course this is under the assumption that scum can communicate with each other which isnt likely. Possibly he was working alone.

Rat: I feel that Remo's last words should actually be listened to, you know, rather than being tossed away and regarded as nothing. Rat is probably the most likely scum here because of Remo's words. When he actually comes online, I will elaborate further.

Andrew: Come on, why can't you start making points about people OTHER than me? Seriously, half the time you are simply repeating what other people have said, the other, you are lurking more than anyone else. Except Strago.

Alex: You are making walls of text about me. No-one else. You have got to widen your vision and look for other targets as well because currently, your target is town. Maybe that is your goal. I don't know. Also, your rather blatent rolefish

Strago: POST MORE! You currently have about a post a page. Seriously, you need to wake up and start posting. We can't say anything about you until you actually post. Start contributing now please.

ET & Smodge: Nice wall of text. Yeah, thanks  . Anyway, you and Smodge seem to be having your own personal little battle here. I would say that you need to widen your targets now. Both of you have made good points so I am neutral about you two right now.

[quote author=Lady Door link=topic=2128.msg36483#msg36483 date=1223765860
(And yes, I did notice. Can you tell me it wasn't any of those perfectly innocent scenarios I suggested, or prove that it was any of the ones you suggested? This is about as futile an argument as the whole "I interpret that post restrictions are possible"/"WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION?" argument you were having with Soppy.)
[/quote]

I cannot tell you it isnt any of your situations. But I also cannot tell you it is any of them either.

LD: Honestly, I dont know. Your play seems to be neutral but with just that little undertone which I cannot put my finger on at the moment.