Incompetent Mafia - GAME OVER (Game Topic)

[Deltaflyer]

My seirious cap is now well and truly on...

[Remo]

Yippee I have the honor of being the first target of a(n attempted) train.

Might want to be especially careful of train starters in this game though, with the higher numbers of scummy scum scums, since their ability to kill is handicapped their most effective weapon will be the lynch...

[Bardiche]

What the hell are you on, Xanth? I'm being totally serious with my vote. True, I jested a bit in the post I placed it on, but I'm being more serious than I've ever been in a Day 1 Mafia round.

I'm also monkey-seeing monkey-doing the events of Day 1 AnonySciFiMafia. It started discussion there, so I am hoping it'll do the same here.

Remo, given the first post warning that we should not assume things, I don't think we should readily expect that Lynch is Mafia's strongest weapon. If there's more Mafia than town, then the Mafia are bound to be post or voting restricted as well.

Look out for any signs of a player acting in a mannerism that's just plain weird given the cutthroat game we're playing, with the exception of Delta who never quite seems to grasp the seriousness of the game.

[Xanth]

Might want to be especially careful of train starters in this game though, with the higher numbers of scummy scum scums, since their ability to kill is handicapped their most effective weapon will be the lynch...

Flagging this one up immediately. I've reread both the start of this thread and the sign up thread, but see no such implication.

(If anything, Captain K's first post in this thread implies that scum will struggle in the day, but I'm not reading into that just based on that)

I do take the point about at least being vigilant about train starters, but not really much more than in any game.


Bardiche: I'm not sure how "simply for being the first on the list" is particularly serious, other than as seriously a joke vote. I don't know, I'm still not reading anything more than 'I hate how silly day 1 is and I want things to be serious, so I'm going to be silly for now' out of it. If it's truly to get discussion going as you say, then I trust you'll lay my initial doubts to rest in the near future.

[Deltaflyer]

I do grasp the seiriousness of the situation. I just bring light hearted joy to the mood.

I concur with Xanth on Remo's post. He has said something that has not been stated to us. He should confirm why he believed this to be true.

[Smodge13]

Must resist kneejerk reaction to vote delta.

Ok straight into serious i see, so its grasping at straws time.

Delta - non-sensicle, not overly serious posts and lots of them, seems like padding post count, only reason keeping me from voting is i remember i was similar in tsukihime mafia

Alex - LaL, generally a good option but it hasnt even been 24 hours yet and the forums themselves were down just before game start, willing to give it more time.

Bardiche - throws a few nonsensicle posts back and forward with delta, also

Look out for any signs of a player acting in a mannerism that's just plain weird given the cutthroat game we're playing, with the exception of Delta who never quite seems to grasp the seriousness of the game.

This is just plain dangerous, we shouldn't just ignore Delta.

Also just like anonyscifi mafia, i dislike anyone who starts a train without reason for picking the target, even if it is day 1.

Rat/Sopko, minor amount of post padding with small 1 line posts

And thats all the straws i can grasp.

Bardiche/delta look the worst so far, not enough to get my vote to switch just yet.

[Captain K.]

Day 1 Votecount.  Approximately 25 hours remain in the day.

Remo:  EvilTom, Bardiche
Sopko:  Carthrat
Xanth:  Lady Door
Carthrat:  Deltaflyer2k8
EvilTom:  Smodge13
Lady Door:  AndrewRogue
Bardiche:  Xanth
AndrewRogue:  Sopko
Sir Alex:  Remo, Xanth

[Carthrat]

Smodge is certainly going for straws, as he said- complaining about a lack of reasons on early day one is pretty boring and ignores the reality of the the game's beginning. He's also pointedly not switching his vote, which I've always found an incredible early play. What, his jokevote on Tom outweighs even minor points? Ugh.

As indicated, Remo's last remark is rather suspicious; I don't want to even start trying to guess scum's many failings without something clear to base them on, and more to the point, going 'hey guys be REALLY CAREFUL with the lynch' is a rather paranoid attitude to have and one that is likely to hamstring town's main weapon, as opposed to defeat one of the Mafia's.

Bard is pseudo-guilty of the same thing by speculating over the handicaps the mafia MUST have. At least he's actually posted some words.

##Unvote, ##Vote Remo whee day 1 train whee

[Lady Door]

I didn't really see anything immediately odd about Remo's statement about scum's "ability to kill [being] handicapped," mainly because it didn't seem to be that big a leap in logic to go from "things can wrong wrong even if they have the numerical majority" in the opening post of the official thread and "the scum will have various penalties assigned that make their increased numbers not so much of an asset" from the sign-up thread.

What DID make me pause, however, was the suggestion that because of this, their most valuable weapon is the lynch.

Yes, yes it is.

As usual.

Scum can always win games without night actions whatsoever simply based on clever lynches. In fact, this is how the game gets played: we pick out the strange things scum says while trying to make a case against not-scum, or else we all get lynched. The way I see it, the only thing NKing does is accelerate the process and muddle the discussion the next day. Scum is not dangerous because their kill-power is handicapped (from Remo's logic), scum is dangerous, full stop. If I'm going to pull at Day 1 straws, I'm going to say that's bordering on panic-mongering and an attempt to misdirect.

I hesitate to drop someone -3 to hammer this early into Day 1, but ##UNVOTE: Xanth because there's no reason to leave that there.

FoS Remo

Waiting to see if Alex will poke his head in soon, too. Also waiting for more from Excal than his disdain, more from Andrew than his joke-vote-and-run, more from Strago than his poke at stirring conversation, more... aw, hell, more from just about everyone. Will probably drop a vote before I leave for fencing tonight, ~3.5 hours from now.

[Ranmilia]

Hi I'm here transformer behind house exploded yesterday morning real post in a while.

[Ranmilia]

All right
Reading up, I see I haven't missed much. 

Remo looks very fishy, as everyone else has noted.  Then again, he could just be overly eager and speculating.  Down with him, but...

##Vote: Delta

Delta, my man!  You seem very gung-ho this game.  Very.  Possibly like you didn't draw vanilla townie for once.  And yet I do not see you actually contributing anything besides "Hey guys I concur with Xanth" and questioning Remo... without moving your vote to him.  How's it goin?

[Hunter Sopko]

Don't forget Delta's crazytalk after Bard's first points, Al!

I'm also leaning Delta.

Rat and LD are contributing. Smodge did his best for a list with limited information... Rat has a point but he goes with the better person. Remo himself, comments-wise, LD is on the right track with the first part of her analysis on Remo, but I think reads too far into it. Remo isn't helping himself with any sort of defense though and I would not be opposed to going that way if it should come to it. No one else is really on my radar.

Delta on the other hand, for the reasons Alex spoke of just seems to be trotting along and tapping in comments when he can, sometimes very non-sensically.

##Vote: Delta

[Smodge13]

Whole reason i haven't moved my vote is Eviltom still hasn't posted anything since jokevote stage.
Awaiting something from him first, then i may or may not change my vote dependant on content.
Theres still the occasional lurker
Shale, Excal and Tom
It's still early days.

Alex is his usual aggressive self and showing no mercy but does have a good point.
The main thing that doesn't sit right with me is Delta is a really easy Day 1 lynch, Mafia could so easily use that to get a free pass for day 1.
Then again we can't ignore Delta's noobishness either as it could be just as dangerous.

Gah now i see why you guys had so much trouble when me and Tom first started out.

[Hunter Sopko]

Uh, what?

Remo puts out the classic type of Day 1 Lynch material, gets a train started on him and Delta is the easy lynch? I guess it's something to think about, but where's this coming from? Why nothing on Remo, who wasn't in your first list?

[Smodge13]

I dislike day 1 train picked at complete random.
He doesn't defend himself at all, which admittedly looks bad and he hasn't made any contribution at all really.

Reason i didn't mention it is its already been said and it's just really parrotting others.

People are putting pressure on Remo already
Not as many have mentioned Strago/Tom/Excal

Just noticed My prev post i meant Strago not Shale, not sure how i mixed that up

 

[Remo]

Ok the opening line of the sign up thread is this

Incompetent Mafia is a non-standard setup with non-standard roles.  There will be a significantly larger ratio of scum:town than a normal game.  However, the scum will have various penalties assigned that make their increased numbers not so much of an asset.

And thats why I felt that we should be even more careful of lynches than in a normal game. We normally have a buffer of town people to go through as we seek to discover the scum, but in this game we don't really have that luxury. Perhaps I am being overly paranoid, but its a point of view which should be considered.

Must I suffer for being overly cautious?

My initial vote for Sir Alex was a jokevote, I don't really have anything serious against him. I shall follow my own advice and remove my vote on him, and examine the proceedings more closely and not vote before I have satisfied myself that it is a good decision.

##UNVOTE: Sir Alex

[Ranmilia]

*eyes*

The game's only two pages of day 1-ness.  You have time to write that much but not enough to find someone else to vote on?

VOTE
VOTING IS GOOD
IT BUILDS CHARACTER
CALVIN'S FATHER STYLE

[Carthrat]

We don't really have time to be extra careful. 48 hours is rather short. Decisions and stands must be reached quickly, not slowly. Obviously you don't want to vote randomly or stupidly but THINK FAST is the name of the game and hanging back, waiting for really good super-duper reasons is uncool.

Also there's the simple logistics of voting towards the end of the day. If people adopt a similar wait-and-see approach, then the end of the day will be a mad rush- and extremely easy for scum to be all over. PLEASE HAVE CASES PEOPLE.

Delta wagon is... just Delta. I'm applying Hanlon's Razor quite thoroughly when dealing with him, and I don't think it's possible to have a meaningful read on him early in the game.

Ninja Edit: OH LOOK, ALEX IS READING MY MIND.

[Smodge13]

Rat, whats Hanlons Razor?, i know Occams but never heard of Hanlon's

[Smodge13]

Also my vote now switches to serious.
Eviltom your on msn, but still no post?
You have been online a bit now and nothing.

Explain please.

[Captain K.]

Day 1 Votecount.  Approximately 20 hours until day's end.

Remo: EvilTom, Bardiche, Carthrat
Sopko: Carthrat
Xanth: Lady Door
Carthrat: Deltaflyer2k8
EvilTom: Smodge13
Lady Door: AndrewRogue
Bardiche: Xanth
AndrewRogue:  Sopko
Sir Alex: Remo, Xanth
Deltaflyer2k8:  Sir Alex, Sopko

[EvilTom]

Smodge: I'm logged into MSN, but I do other things too you know, other than Mafia.
You're rather narrow-mindedly aiming at me, when I've got as many posts as Excal and Andrew. However you are ignoring another fact; I have as many serious posts as Strago.
Why have you decided to ignore those others, and focus on me? Is it purely based on metagame that you saw me logged in?

Ok, so now I'm posting. Now what are you going to do?
You've spent the whole game so far "waiting for me to post".. and now that I have, you're going to remove your vote right? Stalling like that is a complete waste of time, it allows you to avoid meaningful input on the Remo train. And your commend about Delta being an easy day 1 lynch is weird, when the train is on Remo. That's rather out of place.
Your post here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36100#msg36100
Seems intent on summarizing, rather than providing any actual insight.
You accuse me of not posting. But I've now posted.
I accuse you of posting, but not posting anything useful.
##Unvote: Remo, ##Vote: Smodge; Discuss.

[Lady Door]

This is my frowny face:

Andrew still has not posted again, and his only contribution to date is a joke vote.

Strago still has not posted again, and his contribution is a joke vote and joke UNVOTE in an attempt to force SRS BIZNIS time (which did happen, though not following the thread Strago trailed).

Excal has not posted again, either, and his contribution was distinctly "I don't want to contribute to this" -- s'cool, people hate joke vote, that's fine. But then what? He has even less presence than the joke voters who disappeared, and that's special.

Remo's response was dissatisfying. Yes, he clarified why he made the comment that caused people to jump on his case and start the train, but I'm more than a little put out that he didn't even nod in my direction. I -did- say something else, even if it was the "reading too far into it" Soppy (probably rightly) says it was. I feel like it might be semantically pedantic to say so, but suggesting that there is a "good decision" to be made about a Day 1 lynch -- and one that needs to be meditated on to the point where a non-joke-vote can't even be hinted at -- made me giggle. Less giggle-worthy is ignoring defense against someone who's considering a vote on you. Does the actual vote make you care more?

##UNVOTE: Xanth (because it slipped by CK's check)
##VOTE: Remo


My secondary concern is the lurkers I mentioned above, but I'm more interested in seeing what the people who voted for Remo have to say about Remo's explanation. Does it change your mind? If not, why not?

Tom, I see you've moved to smodge, but why did you move off Remo? Not a good enough case anymore, did he clear his name with his explanation, or is it just that smodge is overwhelmingly more suspicious?

Bardiche?

(To a lesser extent) Carth?

Anyone else have thoughts on Remo, or want to make a case for why X is more vote-worthy?

[EvilTom]

Tom, I see you've moved to smodge, but why did you move off Remo? Not a good enough case anymore, did he clear his name with his explanation, or is it just that smodge is overwhelmingly more suspicious?

I was never really 'on' Remo - my vote on him was the first post of the game, and obviously a joke vote. I've looked at what Remo said; it looks a bit strange, but I'm happy with his explanation. I didn't see any need to keep a joke vote on Remo after that, especially not when Smodge was, as you say, acting more suspicious.

[Remo]

Mods you did not count my UNVOTE on Sir Alex

Hmm I am not sure how to get out of the hole I have dug for myself, but what I can do is to take note of the people who trying to bury me.

Bardiche jumped on a train for me with little justifications (first on the list? wut?) initially, and then when I tried to highlight early train starters and supposed scum handicaps he turned around and highlighted my statements as being suspicious. Fair enough, I guess, though I believe and stand by my statement. Xanth also thinks my statement is suspicious, but also goes after Barchiche for not being convincing with his reasons to vote me.

Delta also feels that I am suspicious, Carthrat highlights both me and Bardiche for claims about scum handicaps but voted for me in the end. Lady Door comes in with words of understanding initially but ultimately decides against me with a FOS with claims of misdirection and fear mongering.

I guess I do sound suspicious, but I am just trying to explore the possibilities here. "However, the scum will have various penalties assigned that make their increased numbers not so much of an asset."  This may also be interpreted as the scum having penalties which go beyond night actions, for example limits on how they can vote during the day.

The previous (and only game which I had played previously) was Britannian Mafia, which had all sorts of crazy conditional roles. eg conditional sheep who hate to vote with someone if they did a particular action, or conditional self silencer who died if he took part in the lynch of a female role.

I realize I am not really offering any solutions here, more like trying to justify my caution with the unusual rules which may be in place in this game. I am sticking out my neck here; beware of those who are too eager to take it.