Incompetent Mafia - GAME OVER (Game Topic)

[Deltaflyer]

* Deltaflyer2k8 head/desk

Also, I actually stated that I had a gut feeling before I was voted for and I was typing the post up as you posted. So don't hit me with that little number.

[Captain K.]

Day 1 Votecount.  Just over an hour left.  Remember, the person with the most votes gets lynched, unless there is a tie.

Remo: EvilTom, Bardiche, Carthrat, Lady Door, Strago, Xanth, Deltaflyer2k8 (6)
Sopko: Carthrat
Xanth: Lady Door
Carthrat: Deltaflyer2k8
EvilTom: Smodge13
Lady Door: AndrewRogue
Bardiche: Xanth, Remo
AndrewRogue:  Sopko, Smodge13
Sir Alex: Remo, Xanth
Deltaflyer2k8:  Sir Alex, Sopko, AndrewRogue, Remo, Smodge13 (5)
Smodge13: EvilTom (1)
Excal: Xanth

[Carthrat]

I'm still good with voting for Remo, though I do think Delta is bringing up all kinds stupid points (jester? Are you serious?) They just look dumb rather than scummy, though. But some of the attitudes really irk me- Forex, Smodge isn't playing the 'hunt scum' game but the 'hunt bad players' game (which, yes, I used to play a lot, sshhh.)

Andy says things like this -

I guess I could potentially see this from the prespective that you are indeed concerned about such strange roles either from seeing one or two earlier games, or reading up on the wiki, but this is then backed up by nothing else.

As opposed to... defending fellow scum via jester theory? Attacking town under fire with jester theory? I'm just not seeing it. On the same note, Alex initially pokes Delta for being too happy, along with a rather blatant rolefish, and then stays on for pretty much the same reason.

Basically all the cases on him are based on a dumb move that townies have made before, will no doubt make again, and is not all that unusual from a silly person trying to be clever who isn't familiar with the nuances of the game (i.e. Delta.)

Remo going "Well geez guys, looks like I deserve to be lynched T_T deltavote but I don't really wanna do this" speaks for itself, really. He's also never really tried to be suspicious of anyone, since he also just shrugs his shoulders at Bardiche's case on him. I'm not seeing any real effort, just constant scattershot, a hope, and a prayer.

[Captain K.]

15 minutes left.  Currently, Remo will be lynched if there is no change.

[Captain K.]

The townsfolk gathered in the square to lynch the suspicious Remo.

"I used to work for these guys!  You gotta trust me!  I can tell you all of their names!"

But the town was not swayed.  They strung him up, only later realizing their mistake.

Remo, TOWN STOOLPIGEON, has been lynched.

Remo gets to make one final post.  After that, the night phase begins and everyone can send me night actions.

Remo, check your inbox before making your last post.

[Remo]

"You... you fools.... you don't even know you are already being deceived by the Ghaleoni..."

Remo coughed weakly, as blood seeped out from the terrible wounds on his back.

"You have doubted me... when I was living... but doubt me... in my death... at your own risk!"

"Be... beware... beware of Carthrat!!"

(sorry guys, you're on your own now)

[Captain K.]

The townsfolk went to sleep, unsure of whether to trust the last words of Remo or not.  But when they awoke, terror filled their hearts.

Excal, the town's mayor, lay dead in his home.  His body was riddled with bullets from a drive-by shooting.  Everyone knew that he took bribes from the Ghaleonis.  But it wasn't until later that the town realized he had gone through a change of heart.

Excal, TOWN CORRUPT POLITICIAN, is dead!

Yet that was not the only killing in the night.  Bardiche, an old man who lived in the town and was well-loved by everyone, lay dead in the street.  A single bullet pierced the top of his head.  Who could kill a defenseless old man?

Bardiche, TOWN ELDERLY RETIREE, is dead!

But wait!  There was more to it than first appeared!  Bardiche was really...

Bardiche, MAFIA GODFATHER, is dead!

The people of Arpehgeia rejoiced at this news, but they knew their work was not done.  A new day dawned...

[Captain K.]

Day 2 begins.  I'll make the tenative deadline tomorrow at the same time, but if you need more time to talk I'll give you an extension.

[Deltaflyer]

Okay. So we have an okay night phase, Mafia godfather and a lurker gone. Okay.

I am going to follow Remo's advice since it is the least I can do to find out what he wished us to know. I wish why Remo made me suspicious of him in the first place if he knew his role. Still, no gain from sorrow for his death.

I propose we focus on Carthrat for the time being. Prove to us how you are a townie.

##VOTE:Carthrat

[Hunter Sopko]

Yep, let's just focus on Rat. Forget everything else that happened yesterday too! Conveniently, everything about me!

Not that I don't agree Rat deserves some looking into. Remo's note yesterday is ominous, and Rat pretty easily went along with Bard's early train. However, coming in and pounding on the desk demanding answers isn't helping your case much, Delta. YOU need to prove you're a townie right now too. A little digging of your own would be nice, but you didn't even supply even the vaguest of help. All you did was allude to the Remo note. I've been over why I think you're suspicious time and again, and the flip, plus your insta-vote, makes you look worse.

##Vote: Delta

On the subject of Rat, a glance at the topic made this jump out at me.

I'm still good with voting for Remo, though I do think Delta is bringing up all kinds stupid points (jester? Are you serious?) They just look dumb rather than scummy, though. But some of the attitudes really irk me- Forex, Smodge isn't playing the 'hunt scum' game but the 'hunt bad players' game (which, yes, I used to play a lot, sshhh.)

His defense of Delta/his Remo vote is... eh. Substandard for Rat. You could make the same argument for voting Remo. His notes to Andy raise an eyebrow, though.

Andy says things like this -

I guess I could potentially see this from the prespective that you are indeed concerned about such strange roles either from seeing one or two earlier games, or reading up on the wiki, but this is then backed up by nothing else.

As opposed to... defending fellow scum via jester theory? Attacking town under fire with jester theory? I'm just not seeing it. On the same note, Alex initially pokes Delta for being too happy, along with a rather blatant rolefish, and then stays on for pretty much the same reason.

Basically all the cases on him are based on a dumb move that townies have made before, will no doubt make again, and is not all that unusual from a silly person trying to be clever who isn't familiar with the nuances of the game (i.e. Delta.)

Remo going "Well geez guys, looks like I deserve to be lynched T_T deltavote but I don't really wanna do this" speaks for itself, really. He's also never really tried to be suspicious of anyone, since he also just shrugs his shoulders at Bardiche's case on him. I'm not seeing any real effort, just constant scattershot, a hope, and a prayer.

"Oh, forgive everything Delta's done. He's just dumb! Voting for him for being dumb is also dumb! Like you've been in the past! For shame." I never liked that line of reasoning. You vote on scummy behavior. You can't take the chance that they're just making mistakes. It's a fallacious argument and a really, really bad defensive strategy.

The Remo thing at the end, more of a matter of opinion. I personally thought Remo's points in his list were pretty valid, which included good things on Tom and smodge. Not quite as scattershot as you make it out to be, but I will still agree that he waited too long to contribute.

Another thing that catches my eye...

Well toss me down and shag me senseless, Delta is actually contributing seriously now?

Probably another case of opinion or reading too far into it, but I don't think Delta really contributed much at all Day 1. Possibly a way of making a scumbuddy look better via propaganda? 

Smodge: You were also pretty vague and acted very suspicious in Day 1. Your thoughts on the flip?

[Deltaflyer]

Well in the light of Remos post, I do think we should focus on Rat. But I really do need to ask you, do you even read all the pages?? I have actively contributed and given my thoughts on these matters. Even if someone has said them before me, does not mean that I am not voicing my own opinion and not theirs. I am totally contribting in my mind. What other ways can I contribute in?

Also, Rat, how have I rolefished? I have not posted one post that has said 'hurr durr, put your hands up if your a scum' No. Just no.

Bardiche is quite likely the target of a town vigilante if there is one in this game. Either that or he attempted to attack someone.

Just because I have said that we should look at Rat, does not mean I am saying that we should forget day 1. True, I did not mention it but that is because I wanted to comment on the night's happenings. Not the days. More to come in a while.

[Hunter Sopko]

Bardiche is quite likely the target of a town vigilante if there is one in this game. Either that or he attempted to attack someo

Bardiche didn't really put himself out there Day 1. He wasn't very high on anyone's suspicion list. It's unlikely he was a Vig target unless they HAVE to strike. The fact that BOTH targets were very scum-like kills (low profile Day 1 people), to me, indicates either a serial killer or two mob factions.

Something about that "or he attempted to attack someone" strikes me as odd. Can't quite put it into words. Why think that before an SK?

[Lady Door]

:|

It is unfortunate I did not get a second chance to post last night. I probably would have ended up keeping my vote on Remo due to the oddness, but I was starting to get a feeling of unease about it around the time of his final post. It was starting to feel much more like a townie in a bad place than maliciousness. Alas. At least he got some last words out? For all that I am still not sure what to make of it.

I'm glad Bardiche got offed last night; I was gearing up to start pointing at him today. I dislike being ignored, even when I realize my long posts are a PITA to read, especially when I have expressed concerns about something (in that case, the ridiculously fanatical way in which he jumped on my questioning Tom's joke vote removal). Add to it that the post in which he ignores me (*emoface*) is one in which he 1) mocks someone; 2) plays the "do it now or NO LYNCH" game. Moot, anyway.

Less moot is confirmed scum flip and confirmed town flip(s). I think. I am wary about trusting the flips ("It is not safe to assume anything") and am not even sure what to make of "Corrupt Politician." WTH is that? The way I read it, Excal's death is what caused Bardiche's -- but that's a hell of a lot of inference pulled from a lone source on the NarutoFan forums, so yeah. Does that mean he was even Town? And is Stool Pigeon really as valuable as I think it is (was)? I'm scratching my chin on how exactly it works if he dies Day 1, but in live games the Stool Pigeon is a townie who gets to watch while the Mafia identifies itself. That he died Day 1 makes me go :| -- maybe he got to see something, maybe he didn't. If that's even how it works here.

Today, I'm interested in Carthrat, Delta, and Alex(!). Secondarily, Andrew is the lurkiest lurker left and I hope he bothers to make more than one brief appearance this day. This early in the day, before much analysis has been done, I'm going to go ahead and pressure him to do just that:

##VOTE: AndrewRogue

(And Delta, I don't think Rat was talking to you. He seemed to be saying that about Alex. I think.)

[Deltaflyer]

Possibly Bard hit someone protected by the doc in a stupid move. The idea of two mob factions seems strange but as Captain K said, you should not expect the ordinary in his games.

[Ranmilia]

Was satisfied with my case on Delta, didn't mind Remo lynch either, went to sleep.  Now?  Now we have information.

My initial information on "Stool Pigeon" matches up with what LadyDoor seems to be saying, translated to net games, a townie who gets vague clues about the identity of Mafia members as the game progresses.  Can't say that's what it is for sure, though, and it doesn't match with them getting a post before death.  Captain K's posts indicate Remo was sent a PM before his post... but Remo's last words aren't exactly conclusive to me, I'd think if he'd gotten something saying "Rat is scum" for certain he would have made it perfectly clear to us.  Going to chalk it up to "Dying townie's last words" for now.

Delta on the other hand continues to behave EXACTLY like I would expect scum!Delta to with a fast push on Remo's message and his responses to Sopko.  I don't like the way the votes fell out yesterday at ALL, especially Delta's kinda-maybe-hammer attempt thingy.  His posts really speak for themselves.

##Vote: Delta

The concerns people have posted about me - I don't really quite get what they are, a clearer statement would be appreciated.  All I can gather is "attempted to blatantly sway people to his case" (well yes, duh, by the way vote for Delta, fly the friendly skies) and "had weird ideas about the role setup" which I think were quite justified and have been proven so now thanks to the odd roles cropping up and, yknow, Remo getting mislynched for similar views (and then OMGUSing and totally falling apart, granted.)

Lurkers - today I was going to start poking at Andrew and Excal.  So uhhh Andrew, what's up.  Who do you think is scum?

Rat - starting to feel a little off about him as well.  I may just be influenced by Remo's words.  Must eliminate sentiment.  Still, though, I do agree with Delta, for all the things our bacony flier has done, rolefishing I wouldn't say is one of them.  Something to watch.

Ninja edit for Delta (and I guess the speculation in general, including Soppy's) - I have been assuming that Excal was the scum kill?  I can't account for the Bard kill at all but Corrupt Politician doesn't reaaaalllly sound like something that would trigger another death.  (Although on the other hand, aren't godfathers usually bulletproof?)

[Hunter Sopko]

Ninja edit for Delta (and I guess the speculation in general, including Soppy's) - I have been assuming that Excal was the scum kill?  I can't account for the Bard kill at all but Corrupt Politician doesn't reaaaalllly sound like something that would trigger another death.  (Although on the other hand, aren't godfathers usually bulletproof?)

I suppose I was a bit hasty in my thinking. I wanted to know why Delta asserted it was only one thing when it could be several, and it got in the way of considering it could still be a Vig. Godfathers are bulletproof... I dunno. I've only been in one game where they were, I think.

[Deltaflyer]

So, Day two beliefs and thoughts:

Xanth: A little meta-analyisis during the day. The times are the same as the Geass mafia and seems to be inactive. His reason is an internet failure of some sort but honestly, with supposed scum post limits hanging about, I am slightly suspicious of him.

Smodge: Makes some good points but a pointless arguement at the end of day 1 simply because he did not see where my point of the posting came from.

Sopko: Seems determined to just have me out of this game.

Rat: Given Remo's last sentence, I am still inclined to go for him. Also, he has few posts yesterday, perhaps another post-restricted person? He said that I am: Attacking town under fire with jester theory? What? How was I attacking town under fire? Did Rat know that Remo was town for sure?

Alex: Reading mostly neutral/town to me at the moment, seems to be  going at me relentlessly with Sopko though 

Lady Door: Seems the most likely to me to be town at the moment. She is mostly giving meta-analysis but with some good thoughts.

All the others: POST MORE!

[Ranmilia]

Xanth: A little meta-analyisis during the day. The times are the same as the Geass mafia and seems to be inactive. His reason is an internet failure of some sort but honestly, with supposed scum post limits hanging about, I am slightly suspicious of him.

Uh... did I miss something here?  This is the first I've heard of scum post limits.

[Deltaflyer]

Well it is Imcompetent mafia, Alex. I am simply suggesting that one of the people who is scum culd have a post limit.

[Hunter Sopko]

This Mafia game will continue until all Mafia are eliminated or all Town.  There will be no Lynch or Lose warning.  Even if the Mafia gain a numerical majority (or do they have one already?    ), there are still several things that can go wrong for them.

Warning:  It is not safe to assume anything about the setup in a Captain K. game.

One more rule:  no whining.  Boo hoo, you got a crappy role.  So did a lot of people.  Deal with it.  Ciato has been given authorization to smash whiners with her club.

The rules and notes Captain K gave us. Under no circumstances has anything been said about post restrictions, Delta. It's a fairly specific insistence to just shrug off. You didn't "suggest" it. You were flat out positive it existed in your first post, the gray area for you was who had it.

I want to call this a Delta/Rat team, but... it makes no sense under conventional wisdom, since why would Delta try to bus Rat when Delta is the one under fire. Would be the other way around... Either way, I'm at least sure that there's more to Delta than meets the eye. My vote's sticking unless someone who hasn't chimed in puts something better forward.

[Deltaflyer]

Warning:  It is not safe to assume anything about the setup in a Captain K. game.

Yes, so basically, for all you know, I am right and for all I know, you are right. Why not consider my ideas insted of saying "Oh no! Delta is new and has different ideas to us!"

Basically, I am town, okay? Now we currently have a bad ratio of kills. Let's not add to that. I am not scum in any way and I can combat them just as well as you or anyone else.

We need to be getting ideas instead of simply writing off new ones.

It takes six to lynch.

Delta: (2) Sir Alex, Hunter Sopko.
Andrew: (1) Xanth.
Carthrat: (1) Delta.

Only five people have posted today. WHERE IS EVERYONE ELSE?

[Deltaflyer]

For example, Xanth and Andrew are both online right now (10:00 GMT) If they do not post, I shall have to assume that they are A) lurkers B) post - restricted scum or C) that they are planning a wall of text.

[Xanth]

A quick sign in post to say hey, given that the day did start a bunch of hours ago. Just a few quick things of the new posts that have caught my eye. Fuller post to follow once I've looked through day one again. In particular I want another look at Delta, as I didn't feel too badly of him at the end of day 1, but he's continued to draw fire since; and at what people had to say about Bardiche and his own opinions.

I was going to throw out a vote for Rat straight away based on the testimony, but that doesn't seem to have happened yet. I can see the doubt people are having about the testimony (apologies, I read the role as being a free scum giveaway and was just worried about it being an obvious thing to bus and end the day quickly to boot), but I'm less convinced that he'd point to someone he wasn't at least fairly sure of (I suppose it could have just been his own assessment, but the whole idiosyncracy of the role to the game just makes it messy). At this point I'm willing to hold off of him until he gets his own defence in, but this is still my top priority until turned aside or otherwise trumped.

Xanth: A little meta-analyisis during the day. The times are the same as the Geass mafia and seems to be inactive. His reason is an internet failure of some sort but honestly, with supposed scum post limits hanging about, I am slightly suspicious of him.

Thanks, Delta. People tend to get the benefit of the doubt for minor absences if they explain it, but apparently you're singling me out for it even when I tried my best to explain it as it happened, and didn't actually disappear (I actually completely lost the connection from about an hour or two before the deadline, but I was going to be gone anyway. I'm still unhappy with my input, but still). Not only have I been far more active than people including you (less present than in Geass, mostly due to the lengths of days and other players mostly lacking direction), and not only does the 'scum post limit' theory just fail on me for the obvious tests - length (couple of huge posts) and quantity (why make little apology posts when I could lump it all together), but I believe I'm the only player who'd previously mentioned such a possibility, and not especially seriously. Thanks.

Ninja'ed by Delta: well fine, this was going to be longer, but if you're going to start witch-hunting like this you can have it as it stands without me softening it up. And no, while it's true that we don't know what's going on, that doesn't make all ideas about it equal in value.

[Deltaflyer]

I am simply considering everyone as scum, Xanth. Even though people give reasons, is there any real way to comfirm them?

[Lady Door]

For example, Xanth and Andrew are both online right now (10:00 GMT) If they do not post, I shall have to assume that they are A) lurkers B) post - restricted scum or C) that they are planning a wall of text.

Or... they don't have enough time to read AND post? Or someone else is using their computer and clicked the wrong button? Or something came up?

You just don't know. There are valid reasons why someone might show up but not post. Also, making a call for "everyone else" to show up when the game has been going for less than the length of a sleep cycle is pushing it. People do sleep and work and have life outside mafia; they can't hover over the thread and be ready to pounce into action the moment the next day begins.

I'm not sure whether this sweeping generalization and snap judgment is a result of poor play or heavy-handed scum misdirection. I think the latter sounds off, but I just can't shake the feeling that Delta's playing is abnormal, as are his targets and his methods. I'm just not sure what's up with it. Add to it that Bard had a few weird interactions with Delta (here where he finds it odd that Delta could be seen as an easy lynch and off-handedly question Delta about his odd behavior, and here where he mocks Delta, then finishes with "Delta you make me facepalm so hard oh god what the hell are you doing that's like inviting scum to decide on your vote" which struck me even then as sort of coach-y) and something just feels very wrong.

And yet! Andrew still has not shown up, whatever his reasons.

*pokes him and returns to reading*