Incompetent Mafia - GAME OVER (Game Topic)

[Captain K.]

This morning time worked pretty well for everyone, so we'll make the next deadline Thursday at the same time.  About 47 hours from now.

[AndrewRogue]

...

I've got nothing to say except you all should be glad I couldn't sleep, apparently. Now then. I'm try and pass out now.

[Smodge13]

Thanks Andrew, Targetted Xanth last night, flavor text said he was sweating...... i see why now.

[Smodge13]

So day 3 we have here.
Andrew i think it would be safe to see is most likely town despite the lurkage.
Now to look at the others

Rat - Remo's post is mildly disturbing however rat has had some pretty decent points so far and not much to fault him on, however he did disappear towards the end of day 2 which is surprising.

Eviltom - FoS the main lynch driver for my lynch, Tunnelvisioned and when called out for lurking day 1 he majorly OMGused

Delta - Delta

LD - lots of Wall of text (that generally matches with her style though) but i'm yet to see any major flaws with her posts.

[Smodge13]

Ok we're coming close to the end, i'm going to guess 2 scum left or maybe 1 3rd party and 1 scum time to start reading through the walls.

We'll start with #1 on my list

Dread Thomas
Day 1 i vote him for lurking Tom then places this post.

Smodge: I'm logged into MSN, but I do other things too you know, other than Mafia.
You're rather narrow-mindedly aiming at me, when I've got as many posts as Excal and Andrew. However you are ignoring another fact; I have as many serious posts as Strago.
Why have you decided to ignore those others, and focus on me? Is it purely based on metagame that you saw me logged in?

Ok, so now I'm posting. Now what are you going to do?
You've spent the whole game so far "waiting for me to post".. and now that I have, you're going to remove your vote right? Stalling like that is a complete waste of time, it allows you to avoid meaningful input on the Remo train. And your commend about Delta being an easy day 1 lynch is weird, when the train is on Remo. That's rather out of place.
Your post here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36100#msg36100
Seems intent on summarizing, rather than providing any actual insight.
You accuse me of not posting. But I've now posted.
I accuse you of posting, but not posting anything useful.
##Unvote: Remo, ##Vote: Smodge; Discuss.

Lets look into this post a bit.
Over-reacts and says i'm wasting time, implies i'm not providing input on the trains (which i was)
Tom then doesn't discuss anything else at all, not even commenting on his own opinions of the trains.

Then

I was never really 'on' Remo - my vote on him was the first post of the game, and obviously a joke vote. I've looked at what Remo said; it looks a bit strange, but I'm happy with his explanation. I didn't see any need to keep a joke vote on Remo after that, especially not when Smodge was, as you say, acting more suspicious.

Says he was never on Remo but once again doesn't even comment on the Delta train, just that he's happy with his explanation

I might not wake up in time tomorrow to post before deadline, but I've made up my mind anyway.

If a lynch does not occur by the deadline, then the person with the most votes will be lynched.  If there is a tie, there will be no lynch for that day.

And that's the rule we're using, so as long as there's no tie for votes then we're cool anyway.

Smodge, there's a couple of reasons people are turning their eyes towards you, and raising their eyebrows.

You spent the first part of the day wasting time. Your vote on me was transient, and held no weight. Your post here:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36112#msg36112
- effectively said that you were only going to keep your vote on me because I hadn't posed outside of jokevote yet. However here:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36133#msg36133
You said:

Normally i would switch my vote to one of the other lurkers but i've decided to leave the vote for now as Tom's yet to clear himself in my eyes.

But then three minutes later, you changed your vote to Andrew own your own initiative. It's suspicious that you'd do a complete 180 without anyone else even posting. To me it sounds like you might have received some advice, perhaps from a scumbuddy? And the flurry of failed tags there... I mean.. it looked like you were really nervous about something.

Most importantly, why are you making your votes so wishy-washy?
Voting and unvoting like that gives little weight to your vote; I find it hard to believe that a towny would exercise their vote so flippantly. Your vote isn't even really doing anything.
There's no pressure if you move your vote around like that, and there's certainly no chance of finding scum.
Furthermore, you profess that your vote is only going to be used to pressure lurkers; once a lurker has posted, your vote will move onto the next person.
That is a blatant and obvious method of avoiding responsibility for your vote.
By voting for those who have posted least recently, you're avoiding trains, you're not helping town, and you're avoiding coming under scrutiny for your votes.

Also, Smodge is egging on the Remo train from the sidelines, without actually joining it himself:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36134#msg36134


Now I'll agree with Smodge that lurkers need to post, but I'd rather hang somebody acting scummy than somebody who hasn't posted much yet due to power-outtages and sleep. So my vote stays on Smodge, and I urge others to consider my case against him.

Once again Comments on how i'm not helping, how i'm avoiding responsibility yet still Tom doesn't comment whatsoever on anybody else
Tom you were the one avoiding responsibility, you go a whole day without commenting on either of the major trains, your whole case was that i voted for you and then switched.
Also for a whole day or 48 horus thats what 3 serious posts? all lacking in content and arguments.

Day 2.

Here he has a decent post, lists a wall of words and pounces on Andrew for lurking.
But Tom, didn't you say voting like that was avoiding responsibility for your vote?

Tom then switches his vote back to me when Andrew posts minor comments on 3 people.
tom's new additions to his case against me

1. dismissing his arguments as OMGus
2. Misrepresenting my post so that it looks something Alex said that was scummy was said by me.
3. my comments that Andrew needs to post more and that strago is not as bad.

1 is emotional
2. is a msitake
3. is a pretty weak addition

Then the train against me starts to form Tom disappears for a while, then comes back just to say

Actually I'm pretty happy that people are finally taking my arguments seriously and looking at smodge. I was starting to fall into AlexDespair ("argh why does nobody listen to me whyyyy").

Yet offers nothing on Alex or Delta at all

I'm sure on Delta, and Alex just keeps going higher on the suspicion scale

Wait, so you're sure on Delta.. but you unvote him? Are you more sure about Alex? It doesn't really look like you are, since there's less evidence than metagame WIFOM.
It looks like you're scrambling for a justification for your switch here. I'm not sure what to make of it either, as I wasn't willing to place you on a Delta scumteam before.
And the LD has a point too.

Finally a comment on someone else, yet it took Soppy's crazy move to do it.

Still Toms case against me seems to be based mainly on my day 1 actions, no mention of Alex or my case against him nor my defense of Delta/Remo

Once again Tom appears to invite more people on the smodge train, yet offers no new arguments nor evidence

Anyway, Smodge is the train to be on! It's where all the cool people are, dawg.
But I can see the merits in Delta, Alex (less so) or even Andrew. There's no time for Andrew though.

I don't really feel the need to re-type everything I've already said about smodge. I think he's scummy for all the same reasons, plus a whole lot of new ones that Xanth added earlier. Typing out a bunch more walls of text isn't going to convince anyone new.

Hey cool! I'll actually be awake for the deadline this time. Awesome. That means I can post again today.

Apart from some me-to-ism, oh and from Xanth of all people.

And finally

I was expecting this. Typical last ditch cop claim as scum is about to get lynched.

Roleclaim time while there's still a chance to turn it around.

Also typical waiting to the last minute; after 45 hours of careful town deliberation and discussion, you've thrown out this claim at the last second, when most people are asleep, so that town won't have time to make an informed decision - instead you're hoping we all blindly agree with you despite the fact that you're currently the most likely scum.

Don't have much time so posting this for now and more later.

If there was ever a scumtell, this was it. Major warning signs with just these words. And nothing much more has been posted except "don't lynch meeee".

Lie #1:

I am town cop, last night i decided to investigate Alex simply because he is often a good place to start, i also disliked the tunnel vision after Delta.

What what what what?!!
You spend all of day 1 saying I'm scum, voting for me, getting in arguments with me, then you claim to be cop and that you didn't investigate me?! There is no way I'm going to believe that after day 1 you wouldn't investigate the person you painted as scum #1. I bet that if I were tied with you for lynch, you'd have 'investigated' me. This is just all too convenient.

Lie #2:

This is why i have been so 1 sided today and gone after only Alex.

You didn't *just* focus on Alex at all, you went after others. In fact you spent more time talking about Delta than you did Alex.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36502#msg36502
You didn't vote on them, I'll give you that, but you weren't '1 sided' at all. You talked about enough people so you could fake a cop-claim at the last minute and get everyone to jump onto the next-biggest train.

I'm not believing this claim, it's just far too convenient.

And now smodge is trying to bait people in. Umm, yeah, posting, relax; you make it sound like we're all hiding. I'd better post this quick or I'll get in trouble with smodge :\

Tom's Kick out the door post.
Last minute? 6+ hours isn't enough especially when there are 5-6 people on later timezones?
How is saying you don't have much time a scumtell? i took a 10 minute break from packing its not long enough to post anything substantial, hell this post is up to 1.5 hours
Question why i don't target you with my power, i like to avoid the obvious with my targets, hence Xanth last night, also i've already mentioned about aiming at those who i think would survive.
Claims i focused on others, my case was against Alex i posted it, i voted Alex and i stuck on that, simple attempt at lies to claim i had intention of voting anyone else.
But still despite all this NOTHING at all on Tom's case against me.

From all of it Tom, you have offered nothing new since Day 1 which was the vote for lurker and then switch after saying i would stay on you.
Thats it.
You offered nothing new.
You barely commented on anyone else and you didn't comment at all on the major trains
Day 1 you accused me of wasting Time and not commiting.
However Tom it is YOU who has practically ignored all other cases and avoided commenting on anyone else.

FoS Tom

And that post took forever, will wait until morning for other people.

[Deltaflyer]

Apologies for not being on at the end of last day. Luckily it went well.

It seems that I missed the roleclaim part earlier. Did everyone claim?

[Carthrat]

Smodge and Andy are pretty much clear at this point. I did consider that Smodge was scum anyway, and was just trying to improve his future credibility, but the weird way in which Xanth died seems to indicate he's legit, if nothing else. Would like to hear speculation on what exactly just happened, though I think I can make a guess. Andy of course would've had no reason not to just let Smodge die were he scum, soooo yeah not seeing that.

Leaving Delta, DT, and LD. Alex dying would seem to indicate that Delta is unlikely to be scum. However, he also appears to have a vote restriction that may limit his options in that regard. It's worth noting that the only person we've observed Alex successfully voting for is Delta, so I'm not sure he ever had another choice, for whatever reason (and the rolename of 'Rebel' seems to indicate antiscum connotations.) The key point here is if their interactions appear to be staged or not.

DT is looking pretty bad. It feels like he really went too far towards the end of yesterday, particularly with rebutting Smodge's cop selection. I'll grant the claim looked bad to start, but he was really reaching when he went into criticizing Smodge's selection; Alex is a pretty typical target for a cop, and I've personally believed far more in copping people you aren't remotely sure of rather than someone you're suspicious of with to start. It feels kinda redundant. He is probably the worst of the three suspects at present, maaaainly for his end of day 2 urging.

LD pretty much clung onto Alex for all of yesterday and I really suspect could have gotten away with switching to Smodge earlier to secure that. Probably the least likely of these three to be scum.

I am crazy tired right now, rat requires rest. Bug me in the morning. :V

[Lady Door]

My initial post was full of a whole lot of meta speculation -- crazy happenings will do that -- but I'm going to try falling back to that in this post.

Some basic notes:

1) There are up to 3 scum left. I really hope it's not 3. ;_; (The way the rules are phrased, there could actually be more. ... ... hopefully that was just to account for Alex's mysteriously disappearing vote? ... not going to metagame yet not going to metagame yet)
2) We have a vig and he's still alive
3) Bard, Alex, Strago and Xanth all flipped scum
4) Remo, Excal and Soppy flipped town
5) There's a cop claim on the table

Going to be re-reading the thread with an eye to interactions between flipped scum and flipped town and interactions then with the still-living. I'm really going to try and avoid WoT posting today. It's hard when my time's limited the way that it is as I can't go back and trim things to be succinct, but I realize it's harder to digest if I write that much. My time's more limited than usual today, but I'll post before I go to bed for sure (~13-14 hours from now).

I'm really suspicious of smodge at the moment, but as it's mainly due to metagame and, as I admitted yesterday, I haven't spent much time reading over smodge's posts, I'm simply going to start my examinations there and can't promise the feeling will remain. That's just the only solid thought I have to leave y'all with until I get time to post again tonight.

[EvilTom]

It seems that I missed the roleclaim part earlier. Did everyone claim?

Er, no. Not really. Just read the thread...

Well, I must admit that it looks like I was wrong about smodge. But it's not like I was the only one who said he looked scummy, everyone acknowledged that.
There's potential there for a scum bus, with smodge finishing off Alex to gain cred, but yeah that Xanth thing seems to confirm it.

I'm really suspicious of smodge at the moment, but as it's mainly due to metagame

Um, I find that fairly hard to believe, I'm interested in hearing your theory. Why is it you find smodge suspicious? Even if it's based on metagame? My metagame theory shows him as mostly town, so I'd like to hear yours.

The whole Alex/vote thing at the end of yesterday was odd, but it looks like a voting restriction is correct, if he only voted delta.
And Andrew's actions at the end of yesterday clear himself as town if smodge is town, so that's fairly likely based on meta.

Carthrat! Where did you go at the end of yesterday? You lurks a fair bit.

DT is looking pretty bad. It feels like he really went too far towards the end of yesterday, particularly with rebutting Smodge's cop selection.

Uh no, if you had been around you'd have noticed that nobody else believed it either; try reading the damn game and stop misrepresenting me. Saying that I'm the only one who disbelieved the cop-claim is a total lie.

Alex is a pretty typical target for a cop blah blah blah

That's merely a playstyle choice of yours. The fact that you're using such metagame against me shows you're trying to paint me as scum, even if it's subtly. I'm not happy about these misrepresentations.

maaaainly for his end of day 2 urging.

Dude, way better than your end of day 2 lurking.

FoS yourself.

[Lady Door]

The metagame making me suspect smodge: he claimed cop, survived the night, and conveniently has investigation results on 1) the person who has come up against him in the final lynch moments; 2) Xanth who died in the night and flipped scum. Add to this that Alex was hesitant to put him at -1 even though his own head was on the line, and instead pushed for a sudden switch to Delta or Andrew (or hesitant to put him at -1 'cause he knew his role would cause the vote to drop (Alex can only vote town)); smodge's exact claim on Alex was "Mafia" whereas the next day's claim on Xanth was flavor...

Making this less likely, also metagame, is: he claimed cop and survived the night because Soppy looked like he was breadcrumbing something more important (or scum likes confusing the heck out of town because they can, or...?); has really horrid luck with investigation targets; Alex was hesitant to put him at -1 'cause he knew his role would cause the vote to drop (Alex can only vote scum; or, Alex can only vote Delta; or...?); Cappy's clarification that standard roles could possibly exist...

Most suspicious of smodge because: 1) I think Andrew is town; 2) I think Carth is town/3P; 3) he was the star last night, and didn't die purely because of weirdness with Alex's vote; 4) Alex flipping scum calls his interactions with Delta into question which time did not permit me to ponder; 5) I haven't been paying much attention to Tom, either.

Questions:

Where the hell has Delta been? What's up with the personal attacks and OMGUS, Tom? Why does the way Xanth died clear smodge (Carth, Tom)? I'd like to hear from Tom why smodge goes from "need to hammer him, that's textbook scum play" to "gee, guess I was wrong!" so damn quickly.

ATM, scum list is something like smodge = Tom = Delta ~> Carth > Andrew.

[Carthrat]

That's merely a playstyle choice of yours. The fact that you're using such metagame against me shows you're trying to paint me as scum, even if it's subtly.

Er... what? I'm saying picking Alex is unlikely to be a faked cop decision. You have said it is. If this is just a 'playstyle choice' then um why the heck did you paint Smodge as scummy with it? For the record, I do think inspecting a copclaims choice of targets is fundamental to determining their legitimacy. You obviously do as well, so why're you trying to just get rid of this argument on the spot?

Also you are pretty in love with the word 'metagame' lately in general. I do not think that word means what you think it means, given that you seem to apply it to anything you don't like.

Uh no, if you had been around you'd have noticed that nobody else believed it either; try reading the damn game and stop misrepresenting me. Saying that I'm the only one who disbelieved the cop-claim is a total lie.

What I notice is that the only other person to post was Andy, whose actions at the end of the day are somewhat more rational and less of a frenzied push than your own (and he ultimately changed after the weirdness towards the end of the day.) In any case he comes out of it looking a lot cleaner than you due to that. Reacting with OMGUS when called is pretty damn terrible. It is not unreasonable. I won't contest that Smodge's claim was late and somewhat suspicious, but the way you pushed it seemed wrong.

Dunno what you expect me to say about not being around apart from that I wasn't around.

<->

Checking out the two NK'd scum posts on Delta.

I stand by my assessment that Delta v. Alex is a giant cluster-eff and the people benefiting the most from it are Smodge (well, he was benefiting at first, now he seems to just be laying low with his fingers crossed that someone decides that Alex should get knocked off instead) and Andrew.

This from Strago is a pretty clear attempt to shove people off either train, something I can't particularly see if Delta was town; why not try to ensure Smodge vs. Delta rather than Smodge vs Alex at that juncture?

Xanth seems to waffle on Delta for the entire time, despite claiming Delta is clearly the issue of the day. He never really follows up on that. He was scum so dodginess is inherent to his class, but if Delta was town, why actually hold back here? It reeks of an attempt to appear to be discussing someone without following through, which is pretty typical for scumbuddies attempting to feign interaction.

So yeah, I'm not to thrilled with those interactions. Tom/Delta scumteam is seeming likelier. Hesitant to vote at this stage due to potential scum numbers/evident role madness, it feels much safer to wait at this point.

<->

LD, I'm a little biased towards inferring Smodge's legitimacy from the nature of Xanth's death. I do want to see if Smodge (or anyone!) has anything else to say about it, though. I've narrowed down my cases based on that assumption, though in the end I do agree that it's weird he's still alive, if nothing else, and if it comes to be otherwise I really will be lost. (Again.)

[Smodge13]

The metagame making me suspect smodge: he claimed cop, survived the night, and conveniently has investigation results on 1) the person who has come up against him in the final lynch moments; 2) Xanth who died in the night and flipped scum. Add to this that Alex was hesitant to put him at -1 even though his own head was on the line, and instead pushed for a sudden switch to Delta or Andrew (or hesitant to put him at -1 'cause he knew his role would cause the vote to drop (Alex can only vote town)); smodge's exact claim on Alex was "Mafia" whereas the next day's claim on Xanth was flavor...

1. I chose to vote Alex only despite more evidence being on Delta was only coincidence in that case? i never moved my vote because the result came up scum. Hell if i didn't stick so doggedly on Alex a train probably wouldn't have formed on me.

2. If you wish to discredit my investigation of Xanth, then please offer a counter to explain his death.

Making this less likely, also metagame, is: he claimed cop and survived the night because Soppy looked like he was breadcrumbing something more important (or scum likes confusing the heck out of town because they can, or...?); has really horrid luck with investigation targets; Alex was hesitant to put him at -1 'cause he knew his role would cause the vote to drop (Alex can only vote scum; or, Alex can only vote Delta; or...?);

Evidence of why someone survives the night only leads to WIFOM, i have no clue whatsoever why i survived the night, the only reason i could think of is possibly scum were hoping to push a case on me today, possible doc, possible they went after Soppy, it all comes down to WIFOM.

Cappy's clarification that standard roles could possibly exist...

Standard roles do exist, i don't know why we all missed this.

Bardiche, MAFIA GODFATHER, is dead!

Still reading......

[Smodge13]

Also reason for inspecting Xanth

This would have been nice a few hours ago.
Xanth's online
Alex?, Andrew?.............can't believe im going to say this........... Delta?

This was after Alex's votemadness

Name ANY TOWN player who would have come online, viewed the madness AND NOT posted anything whatsoever.
Xanth appeared in who's online as viewing mafia.
I then posted the above.

Xanth then disappears, now he had claimed net problems earlier, which is why i chose to investigate him, using pure metagame of Xanth appeared then disappeared, would not be enough to bring a charge against him, hence i chose to confirm if he was scum or not before pushing his lynch today (which is obviously unneeded i can only guess Xanth had some condition that made him kill himself if investigated)

[Carthrat]

2. If you wish to discredit my investigation of Xanth, then please offer a counter to explain his death.

Well, you haven't offered one, and you seem to know what's up with it. Soooo. I think we're hoping you can explain it.

[Smodge13]

I investigated Xanth, he came up MAFIA and there was flavour attached mentioning he was sweating (no flavour was with Alex's result).
Now Xanths words of good cop bad cop hint at cop being the case
On top of this my flavour specifically mentions i "interrogate" my targets i didn't see the point of it until now
I believe Xanths role of guilty conscience results in him killing himself if investigated.

[Smodge13]

working on big post still.
Will complete it after lunch, be back in an hour

[EvilTom]

The metagame making me suspect smodge: he claimed cop, survived the night, and conveniently has investigation results on 1) the person who has come up against him in the final lynch moments; 2) Xanth who died in the night and flipped scum. Add to this that Alex was hesitant to put him at -1 even though his own head was on the line, and instead pushed for a sudden switch to Delta or Andrew (or hesitant to put him at -1 'cause he knew his role would cause the vote to drop (Alex can only vote town)); smodge's exact claim on Alex was "Mafia" whereas the next day's claim on Xanth was flavor...

Making this less likely, also metagame, is: he claimed cop and survived the night because Soppy looked like he was breadcrumbing something more important (or scum likes confusing the heck out of town because they can, or...?); has really horrid luck with investigation targets; Alex was hesitant to put him at -1 'cause he knew his role would cause the vote to drop (Alex can only vote scum; or, Alex can only vote Delta; or...?); Cappy's clarification that standard roles could possibly exist...

Most suspicious of smodge because: 1) I think Andrew is town; 2) I think Carth is town/3P; 3) he was the star last night, and didn't die purely because of weirdness with Alex's vote; 4) Alex flipping scum calls his interactions with Delta into question which time did not permit me to ponder; 5) I haven't been paying much attention to Tom, either.

I'd like to hear from Tom why smodge goes from "need to hammer him, that's textbook scum play" to "gee, guess I was wrong!" so damn quickly.

I guess all your points are valid; smodge could be scum, but when Alex flipped scum and then Xanth died and also flipped scum and smodge claimed that he investigated Xanth, I figured that all the evidence was fairly convincing.

Targetted Xanth last night, flavor text said he was sweating...... i see why now.

I took that at face value in light of the cop claim; I gave far too much weight to the evidence of Xanth's flip right after Alex, and I didn't stop to think that it was just too convenient that smodge doesn't have a useful investigation for us today.
Looking at it from the perspetive that

1) Smodge didn't die, and
2) He doesn't have a useful investigation for us,

We can conclude that either A) there's a doc, B) scum left smodge alive in order to make us think he's scum (WIFOM) or C) he is scum.
That's certainly put it in a new light.

Where the hell has Delta been? 

Seconding that.

Tom/Delta scumteam is seeming likelier.

Um what? Delta has been one of my top suspects since day 2. If the smodge train hadn't gone ahead, I'd have been voting delta. http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2128.msg36513#msg36513 - that post for reference.

<->

Nobody really looks "safe town" to me, but Andrew probably comes closest, on the proviso that I'd like to see more input from him.


Ninja'd by smodge.. who obviously comes to the same conclusions. Nothing new there. Oh geez ninja'd again... and again... and again... holy crap, enough with the ninjas o_O

[AndrewRogue]

I'm catching up, but I feel this needs to go out there right now.

My role is town reporter. I can choose to investigate a player at night and be told what their power role is. I get absolutely no insight into alignment. Night 2, I investigated Smodge and can confirm that his power role is indeed cop. So, either he is scum with a power role that is called Cop, or he is actually a town Cop.

Beyond that, I have a theory about Alex's vote restriction. All things told, he only had two vote targets out the entire game, right? One was Delta, and one was Smodge (to which his vote didn't stick). As far as I can tell, Smodge is town. So... I'm stuck wondering why Alex stuck to Delta so heavily the entire game. My thought is that Alex had some sort of vote restriction... and my current idea is that he might only be able to vote for scum. Not sure, of course, but I'm really trying to figure out why he would have stuck to Delta so heavily (and reconcile it with his vote failure).

Food for thought.

[EvilTom]

That's interesting. Let's do some theory~ (assuming town always tell the truth)

If Andrew is scum, smodge is either scum or town; but:
If Andrew is town, then smodge is town

So Andrew could be a scumteam with smodge, or smodge could be legit but Andrew is trying to borrow his cred by confirming. But if Andrew is town, then smodge is also town.
My reasonsing for this is that ScumCop is just stupid. I could only imagine an ITP-Cop, which still seems like a pointless role. I know we can't assume anything about the setup and we shouldn't metagame blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that such mechanics wouldn't work properly. I mean, MafiaCop is possible, but I really don't see it as plausible.

Beyond that, I have a theory about Alex's vote restriction. All things told, he only had two vote targets out the entire game, right? One was Delta, and one was Smodge (to which his vote didn't stick). As far as I can tell, Smodge is town. So... I'm stuck wondering why Alex stuck to Delta so heavily the entire game. My thought is that Alex had some sort of vote restriction... and my current idea is that he might only be able to vote for scum. Not sure, of course, but I'm really trying to figure out why he would have stuck to Delta so heavily (and reconcile it with his vote failure).

Sir Alex, MAFIA REBEL

That... makes sense. If Alex was a 'mafia rebel', then perhaps he was forced to 'rebel' against his fellow mafia by voting for them, and his votes would only count when placed on them.
Therefore:
If Andy is telling the truth, then smodge is town, which means Alex's vote on townSmodge was not counted.
That theory points squarely to scumDelta.

It would be really nice to hear from Delta at some point soon, lurking isn't helping; serious FoS Delta.

[Carthrat]

Andy: I'll be blunt, did you investigate me on night 1? I've suspected you had some investigative role like this for a short while now. I think you know why, too, but I'd like you to confirm this for me.

[Lady Door]

My concern with Xanth's flip confirming smodge's town copness was basic timeline. It goes something like this:

1. smodge is about to be hammered! Alex is the closest train! Conveniently, he investigated Alex the night before and got scum!
2. Craziness happens, Alex is lynched even though smodge was "hammered."
3. Alex flips scum.
4. Xanth dies overnight.
5. smodge claims he investigated Xanth that night.

The fact that 5 comes after 4 is why I can't see smodge claiming he got "Xanth is scum" as enough to clear him. His explanation of what happened is what I was thinking had happened (cop investigation makes Guilty Conscience self-destruct), but then... I dunno. That feels like it's stretching the point a bit far. There are possibilities that still allow for scum!smodge but at this point I think I've become infinitely more suspicious of Tom.

Hi Tom!

To point a): We can't conclude there's a doc -- the same number of people died last night as every other night, plus one! Doesn't mean smodge isn't town, though. DOES likely mean he wasn't targeted by kill actions. Why are you proposing otherwise?

As for what Andrew says:

I was going to say "no duh" and then quote myself, and then I realized I didn't post the metagame post I typed. *facepalm* However! I can quote Carth and get about the same thing:

However, [Alex] also appears to have a vote restriction that may limit his options in that regard. It's worth noting that the only person we've observed Alex successfully voting for is Delta, so I'm not sure he ever had another choice, for whatever reason (and the rolename of 'Rebel' seems to indicate antiscum connotations.) The key point here is if their interactions appear to be staged or not.

Which brings me back to Tom again:

'kay, Tom, why do you go "BRILLIANT!" when Andrew says it, but ignore it when Carth says it? Also, you have yet to answer:

What's up with the personal attacks and OMGUS, Tom?

That's merely a playstyle choice of yours. The fact that you're using such metagame against me shows you're trying to paint me as scum, even if it's subtly.

Er... what? I'm saying picking Alex is unlikely to be a faked cop decision. You have said it is. If this is just a 'playstyle choice' then um why the heck did you paint Smodge as scummy with it? For the record, I do think inspecting a copclaims choice of targets is fundamental to determining their legitimacy. You obviously do as well, so why're you trying to just get rid of this argument on the spot?

More in a few moments.

[Smodge13]

And there i go and lose the post........
Ok analysis of other players.

Andrewrogue, Has kept very quiet throughout the game, his intent to hammer end of day 2 was an annoyance, then again it's what saved the day, i can't see it as a scum ploy for town credit, especially when xanth appeared and could have done the exact same thing and been looked upon even better than Andrew who's lurkage would make him slightly suspect.
Anyway Andrew i consider 95% town.

As for the source of the extra kills i am 90% sure i know who that is just through simple analysis, whether they are a Vig or 3rd party however is debatable, i can't help but shake the feeling that they are 3rd party despite hitting scum every night, 3rd party is seeming more likely to me, however i may just be afraid of some survivor BS where town loses for not lynching them.

Lady Door
Cant seem to find any faults with her arguments, she went after alex day 2 and quite early on to.
Day 3 her questioning of my motives is a mild annoyance but her questions seem to be more a cautious townie than a scum attempting a lynch on me (then again if we want to get into the wifomy argument of scum not nking me so they can make a case against me today)

Rat
Remo vote day 1, Alex vote day 2 ends the day on my own train, Rat seems to be very quiet this game and spends alot of time in the background, he seems to be very lurky but his arguments seem fairly sound.
then again we do have Remo's word, i'd say about 20% Rat being scum

Delta (WARNING WIFOM INSIDE)
Ok here we go.
Alex had some sort of vote restriction that prevented him voting me, its possible he could only vote scum and Delta was the one he stuck to.
Now it is possible
Alex could vote scum only OR Alex couldn't vote on any train that scum were on.
Look at the end of Day 1, Only confirmed Town and unknowns are on the train.
End of Day 2 it was the same.

I believe 1 of these 2 cases is probable seeing as they make sense

Now lets hypothetically Assume Alex could only vote for scum.
You have your list
Bardiche
Delta
Xanth
Strago

Who would you pick?, Delta of course, i've already stated my reasons about an easy lynch we also have this which i posted yesterday

On the other hand,
if I was his scumbuddy
I'd advise him thus:

"Play poor, really poor,
and town will dismiss it as
just Smodge being Smodge."

So deliberately convincing Delta to play as badly as he can is something alex is more than capable of coming up with.

We also have all the other bad play from Delta throughout the game.

Personally i'm thinking either Delta or Tom is scum, possibly both as Rat has said.

[AndrewRogue]

Carth: I did indeed investigate you night 1, and I'm fairly sure I know why you suspected that I did that as well. ^_^

[EvilTom]

Looking at it from the perspetive that

1) Smodge didn't die, and
2) He doesn't have a useful investigation for us,

We can conclude that either A) there's a doc, B) scum left smodge alive in order to make us think he's scum (WIFOM) or C) he is scum.

To point a): We can't conclude there's a doc -- the same number of people died last night as every other night, plus one! Doesn't mean smodge isn't town, though. DOES likely mean he wasn't targeted by kill actions. Why are you proposing otherwise?

I wasn't saying there's a doc, I was listing all of the possibilities. You can't just look at point a), you have to look at them all in conjunction. They're all on one line.
You're taking it out of context. Why would you do that 

'kay, Tom, why do you go "BRILLIANT!" when Andrew says it, but ignore it when Carth says it?

I was more focused on Rat's attacks against me, rather than what he had to say about Alex voting delta. so in my heated reply I neglected to discuss that particular point. I got annoyed at him and focused on the latter part of his post >.>
So when Andrew brought it up again, I decided to post my thoughts on the point rather than neglect it.
LD, what's your opinion on the Alex/delta theory? I don't see you having posted your actual thoughts yet. So far you've just been sniping at those of us who're providing our thoughts on the matter.

<->

Ok, so there's something going on between Rat and Andy. Care to fill us all in?

[Carthrat]

Righto. I believe there is no real value to not massclaiming at the moment; that I have a role is outed now and I needed to put this out at some point.

I'm a Sniper! I kill people with bullets. You guys SHOULD beware of me. However, I'm town; there was some flavour about becoming disgusted with the sheer stupidity of the current family and striking out on my own. Of course, I can't really do that until all my old employers are dead, so here I am.

Basically, every night I get a list of people to pick from to kill, in the form of contracts taken out on peoples lives. I don't have to take one, but I have every night because the increased scum numbers have made scoring a kill more likely. I've deliberately kept a low profile this game, since I badly want to avoid getting NK'd this time 'round. I speculated early that it's possible scum decide some of the contracts, but I'm now pretty certain they're just picked at random, for reasons you'll soon see.

Night one, I killed Bard, choosing him from Bard/LadyDoor/Xanth. LD and Xanth both posted comprehensively. Bard was essentially copying my moves from Anonymafia and making a point of it (he knows I'm cool, copy the townie guy!), and his cases seemed more self-contradicting; he'd compliment Delta and ream him out in the same post, for example. That he was the first guy on the Remo train and pushed it all along didn't help matters much, especially as he cast shots at Delta in the interim without plunging in.

Night two, I killed Strago, choosing him from Smodge/Sopko/Strago. The latter kill was picked because Strago was the only guy from the list on the Smodge train and he'd lurked a lot; I didn't particularly want to kill Smodge (being a copclaim), so it was a tossup between Sop and Strago, and, well, guy on a confirmed scum lynchtrain beats the guy not on one.

Claiming now because Andy breadcrumbed this before, here.

Carth... I don't think he's scum currently. Despite Remo's warning, the fact is that he's made some overall solid points and has done nothing to make me think that he is scum. Still, need to keep him in the back of the mind at least. Would hate to have had the answer right in front of us and have our chance of victory sniped right before our eyes. :p Of course, don't know for sure at this point!

This builds on what I've already said, I think. It makes Smodge and Andy very unlikely scum, because...

-If Smodge is scum and Andy isn't, then Smodge is a cop. Who is scum. I find this unlikely, not when Andy claims 'Reporter' as rolecop. Names are clearly idiosyncratic in this game.
-If Andy is scum and Smodge isn't, then Andy is a scum rolecop who... didn't ensure the death of a claimed cop? Huh?
-They could *both* be scum, andy could be a scum rolecop who picked me out. So why is an accurate vig, i.e. me, still alive? (Why would scum-Andy even hint at that to town? o-o) It seems marginally more likely than the other two possibilities, and it is still incredibly unlikely. Hence both these guys are cleared to me.

<-->

I'd like to call upon other people to claim, as I believe the time for secrecy is over and it may help us decide on a lynch (as well as whoever I kill overnight, if my choices are neat and we don't just win outright today, which I do feel is unlikely but hey! I'd take it.)