Incompetent Mafia - GAME OVER (Game Topic)

[Luther Lansfeld]

Well, the big thing about the Rat thing is that you knew that the Mafia had a lot of people and had things that would suck for them.

[Lady Door]

To be honest? All the hints about it not being a typical game, etc., had me doubting flips.

I had no idea whether Remo was even really /town/ with a role like "Stool Pigeon," especially doubted after Cappy said it wasn't likely to match up with any other instance of Stool Pigeon in other games of Mafia. Nevermind why he picked Carth of all people to name. Didn't know what information he was given, if any, or ... well... anything. Except that Remo, who flipped town Stool Pigeon, said "Beware Carth."

I can't imagine anyone taking that to an immediate Day 2 lynch, which is probably why the person who did go with it was who it was.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Well, I thought the implication was that things would suck for scum, and flips being wrong is definitely not anti-scum.

[Lady Door]

I think I'm probably the only one who took paranoia that far, but the point about Remo speaking from what was, to town, the dark is the main problem I had with what he said. We simply didn't know why he said "Beware Carth" -- gut feeling, actual knowledge (and if so, of scum members or just of people who can kill?), or a random name from a hat.

Out of curiosity, was Remo prevented from being able to post "Rat is scum!" or something more direct?

[Deltaflyer]

I lied about my target because I forgot to check the send PM to self box. I was totally kicking myself. I forgot what I had done because of that :/

[AndrewRogue]

I'm going to be direct and to the point.

I feel cheated.

Edit:

Actually, this jumped out at me on a review.

A.  They used Carthrat's power.  That power was designed as a trap for scum to fall into, and they fell hard.  Let's review Night 1.  Remo got lynched, so Town was already down 1 player.  Even if Xanth and EvilTom died Night 1 from Doc/Cop luckiness, that still leaves 4 Scum to 5 Town.  Town has to lynch a Scum *every day* for the next 4 days to win.  Scum win on Night 5.  Now do you honestly think Town can make no mistakes for four days straight?

So. Presuming we get incredibly lucky on night one... we have to play an abso-fucking-lutely perfect game to win? And of course, this doesn't account for the STATISTICALLY PROBABLE CHANCE THAT CARTH WOULD HIT TOWN?

[EvilTom]

We kept rejoicing in scumchat, saying things like "we have an easy win now". And then we'd kill our own scumbuddy. And then half the scumteam died in a single day. And we went from rejoicing to crying.
Winning looked unlikely to Rat & I at the start of day 3, we didn't expect it to play out so well.

[Bardiche]

I was pretty "hey, what..." at the start of Day 2 when I realized I died. Congratulated Rat on his scumkill.

I'm going to admit I intentionally went for aggressive play this time because A) I want to play differently each time and B) It worked for Corwin in that Villains game. The interactions with Delta? Well, what can I say... I'm a merry man, I enjoy messing about. That you all read so much into my usual friendliness towards Delta surprised me on Day 2. Completely unintentional side-effect. (only reason I wasn't trying to get Delta lynched was because of Alex's vote being on him)

Delta did pretty good this game, though. I don't get why people insist he was that bad. He did make good observations.

I was bumming so hard I didn't get to join in much, thanks to Night 1, but hey! Satisfied none the less.

[Lady Door]

It looked unlikely for scum during LYLO because one of your scumbuddies had massive town credit thanks to the misfires of his power, one of town was massively discredited, one of town was mistakenly assuming vig on town's side rather than an extra vig power on scum side (remember that whatever the intention of the power, we had no idea that it was random -- it hit scum twice), one of the town was a cop who investigated scum-who-happened-to-have-died, and the doc was someone who couldn't even remember who he'd doc'd?

...



It's not that town was screwed from the get-go, 'cause it wasn't that -- the powers could easily have fallen the other way. I just...

That's it, I guess. It was almost entirely dependent on what happened during the night. And I was vanilla. I played no part in 90% of the game. What's worse, I didn't even know that enough to prevent myself from spending hours constructing posts that ultimately contributed ... I'm not even sure what it contributed, since Alex's point about succinctness is well taken.

--

I liked the idea of the game. I even enjoyed playing it! (Except for getting stressed over game stuff, but that's just what I do. ). But to see what the game was actually made of at the end... it just makes me kind of :|

--

Bard, would you have been able to look past Delta on Day 3?

[Excal]

Captain, you made one fatal mistake in your plan to have the corrupt Politician mislead the rolecop.  Namely, you gave it to me!  Everyone knows that when role madness comes a knocking, Excal is always a dependable Vanilla Town!  That's why when election day comes, you should vote Excal with his dependable 100% success rate at being boring when all around you is madness and chaos!

As a side note, the number of scum did look a little high.  I can understand why the thoughts of giving them handicaps seems like a sensible way to limit their power.  But the ability to know who each other is, and the ability to converse with each other is a very large boon that only gains larger as they get a higher percentage.  And the fact that, apparently, town could only afford two mislynches against five targets is bad news for town.

That said, the setup looked fun, and apologies once more for not actually being able to show up and participate this time.  Probably wouldn't have been much use anyways as I've barely been at home that much of late anyways.

PS: Good job, Xanth.  You had me convinced of Alex, and I was feeling fairly certain you were town by the end of Day 2.

[Corwin]

Smodge for town mvp, an honorary mention for Sopko. Delta for scum mvp, seriously. I've been following the game and his posts made me cry. Forgetting your targets? Doing the next thing to claiming scum while arguing? Yeah.

Smodge! Please spend more time on making your posts legible, I was constantly thinking that if the presentation matched the excellent logic (and choice of targets) you wouldn't be going up for lynch only to be saved last moment by Andrew.

The note in the day 2 votecount that pretty much tells people to look for something suspiciously missing felt pretty unfair to me. Not really for balance issues or what not, but just because it felt uncool. Scum made a pretty worthy gambit, and it didn't feel like it justified a word of mod that something was rotten to practically hand town another chance.

Question to Remo or the Captain! Did Remo's last post really have to be that evasive, or could he have just posted 'Rat is scum, I am martyr cop, lynch him plz'?

[Bardiche]

Bard, would you have been able to look past Delta on Day 3?

Uh, if I was town? I would... maybe. I don't know. I can't say anything of it.

I get that his logic is aggravating, and his play is confusing at best because he seems to post first and think later... And then proceed to forget all his thoughts, post first again and think later part 2... but I'm thinking he'll learn in due time. How to build proper cases, that is. How to argument his opinions. How to convince people of his own righteousness. How to defend his integrity in an able way that does not include, "Trust me I am town".

Once he pegs that down, he's where I'm at; find a winner strategy. Seriously.

I was so going to claim Cop, too. ;_;

[Excal]

I'm vaguely reminded of some past games, like Touhou, where Smodge managed to nail all the scum, except he was a naive cop.  Or PW, where Tom was a cop and managed this insane last second turn around that eventually won the game.  The guys who usually get themselves killed early and dismissed do so not because they lack insight, but because they lack eloquence.  Because they can't speak pretty like Alex can, and so they get written off.

I know there's a reason why, in discworld, the scum poem said they respected Tom's lethality, and were just glad he was more than happy to turn it on himself before he could ever turn it on them.

[Smodge13]

like Touhou, where Smodge managed to nail all the scum, except he was a naive cop. 

Don't remind me, that pissed me off even more than Tsukihime where i was a roleblocking doc and i hit either scum doing the kill or the kill target every night......
I think alot of it is lacking argumentation skills, i'm starting to improve to a degree, i think a large portion of it though is also knowing when to shut up, towards end of day 2 i was majorly lurking and yet more and more people were stepping onto the Alex train, sure present your case and strengthen it every now and then i think people like myself Tom and Delta have just a really severe case of foot in mouth. Maybe it will improve a bit more as we go on.

Also Corwin, my typing sucks, i think it's improving, i am doing what i can, however every now and then i rush a post and it all just becomes a mess.

[EvilTom]

The note in the day 2 votecount that pretty much tells people to look for something suspiciously missing felt pretty unfair to me. Not really for balance issues or what not, but just because it felt uncool. Scum made a pretty worthy gambit, and it didn't feel like it justified a word of mod that something was rotten to practically hand town another chance.

I was also annoyed that day 2 was intentionally short, and then extended. Some thoughtful metagaming would have asked "why is today so short, are we supposed to be quicklynching Rat?"
Yep, that was uncool.

i think people like myself Tom and Delta have just a really severe case of foot in mouth.

I'm going to punch you if you keep grouping me like that. Seriously. I am not kidding.

Also Corwin, my typing sucks, i think it's improving, i am doing what i can, however every now and then i rush a post and it all just becomes a mess.

Tip: hold down the 'shift' key when you press the 'i' key >.>

[Lady Door]

PLEASE someone explain to me how, from town's perspective, we should have quicklynched Rat?

[Corwin]

I would be more than happy to, LD, once I get my own answer re: the restrictions enforced on Remo's last post, if any.

[Lady Door]

I am curious about that as well. I will wait! I should stop posting anyway. >_>

[Xanth]

Also reason for inspecting Xanth

This would have been nice a few hours ago.
Xanth's online
Alex?, Andrew?.............can't believe im going to say this........... Delta?

This was after Alex's votemadness

Name ANY TOWN player who would have come online, viewed the madness AND NOT posted anything whatsoever.
Xanth appeared in who's online as viewing mafia.
I then posted the above.

Xanth then disappears, now he had claimed net problems earlier, which is why i chose to investigate him, using pure metagame of Xanth appeared then disappeared, would not be enough to bring a charge against him, hence i chose to confirm if he was scum or not before pushing his lynch today (which is obviously unneeded i can only guess Xanth had some condition that made him kill himself if investigated)

This really, really irked me. He got to the right conclusion for a really bad reason. What had happened that morning was that I had woken up really late due to having been up to 2am catching up, checked the board, saw that the fake hammer had gone down and went back to bed. It's called 'users active in past 15 minutes' for a reason. I wasn't around when crazy stuff happened or I probably would have been forced to move my vote to Alex.

At least it thoroughly doomed Delta, who I had been forced to claim was clear to justify not voting for him.


For the record, everything I said about connection problems or anything else about not having time or the like was [unsurprisingly] true. I'm annoyed that Delta picked this one time to pick on me for that when there were way worse offenders out there, and the connection issue was really frustrating because it denied me the option of being lucid for the second half of day one, which meant I spent most of day two catching up, which would have been the same had I been town (except I wouldn't have been digging so hard for a secondary target to lynch).

Whine whine whine whine whine. Life's too short for me to be complaining like this. As frustrating as some elements of the game were, I still had fun. And yeah, given that we didn't know the town side of the set up was as weak as it was, we had hilarious emotional rollercoasters at least twice or thrice a day.

[Captain K.]

I sent Remo a PM saying "You think Carthrat is a member of the Mafia."  So no, he didn't know for sure.

But yeah, the flavor text of his death, combined with me saying I sent him a PM, combined with the Town flip, combined with the knowledge that there are more scum than usual = lynch the hell out of Carthrat.

And it was perfectly fair for me to draw attention to Alex's vote.  He was cheating, plain and simple.  I don't fault him for it, because it worked to draw Andrew into a hammer.  But I'm not going to let it slide.

[EvilTom]

I'd debate the argument that he was cheating.

3. Sir Alex = The Rebel.  You don't toe the company line!  You may not vote for any player that another Mafia member has voted for.  If another Mafia member votes for someone that you have a vote on, you must unvote.  A moderator will unvote you if you do not unvote in a timely manner.  And yes, this means you can't be part of a hammer with other Mafia players.

Our understanding was that his vote would not count. If he attempted, his vote would be discounted. That's what happened.
It doesn't say that he wasn't allowed to pretend to vote.

Town could have seen it on the votecount; it might have slipped past them, it might not. We didn't appreciate the moderator doing town's job for them.

[Smodge13]

to be fair we would probably have noticed as soon as we saw no hammer. Admittedly took me a few minutes to spot the lack of Alex's vote i spotted the no hammer first.

[Smodge13]

Huh?

Where did Alex's vote for me go?, this really looks like a restriction to me.
Please tell me someones online.
Alex's vote isn't in the count
And if he's a gun store owner, why has he got a vote restriction
More proof of scum right here...... and no time left v.v

See, it took me 7 minutes to notice what was up, all i saw at first was no hammer.

[Carthrat]

CAPITALIZE THE LETTER I WHEN USED AS A PRONOUN

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

[Smodge13]

but i'm lazy....... surely there must be a script out there that automatically does it.