Incompetent Mafia - GAME OVER (Game Topic)

[Smodge13]

Actually it's more forgetfulness than anything else, same with beginning sentences with capitals.
Sentence structure gets really messed up when I try to actually apply punctuation.

[Carthrat]

:V

Well, the eloquence and presentation thing is very true. I mean, really, convincing people of stuff is half the game.

[Corwin]

Plus when you're stressed and have huge walls of text to read, it helps to not, you know, gloss over those that you just know would make you cry.  >_>

[Smodge13]

Hard to believe I got an A in VCE English isn't it.
Edit*
Well the equivalent at least which is 85%-90%

[Carthrat]

N'really, I won a prize for english lit in my final year, so the standard can't be that high. Teehee, look at me gloat~

[EvilTom]

english

English.

[Carthrat]

That only goes towards proving my point.

[Hunter Sopko]

Yeah, I could tell you were having trouble putting together a case on Alex, smodge. You had him, but you couldn't tip your hand to scum that you were a cop. The instant vote was the right thing though. It's why I figured you for cop and dropped my suspicion I had on you from Day 1 and watched it play out. It's always a hard time when you have someone like Alex, especially Day 2. He didn't leave much to give you in way of a case Day 1/early Day 2, but you kept at him though and broke him down, he made some mistakes on his own too, and bam. We had him.

I don't particularly think Alex was cheating. Thats a perfectly legitimate way to fool town. You use what you're given. It's town's responsibility to catch it. You CAN say "the votecount is correct" to let people know, but going as far as "DESPITE SOMETHING OBVIOUS MISSING LYNCH ALEX NOW IDIOTS" is a bit far.

[Lady Door]

But yeah, the flavor text of his death, combined with me saying I sent him a PM, combined with the Town flip, combined with the knowledge that there are more scum than usual = lynch the hell out of Carthrat.

1. What about the flavor text? He died and got to make one final post before night actions. Flavor says he might have known something, maybe.

2. We had no idea what information Remo had, if any. For all we knew, you sent a PM telling him the limitations on his final post, not actual information.
2a. There was information leading to theorizing that a vig was present. Vig is almost always town/3P, NOT scum. If Remo had been given information on people who killed, it still could have made Carth, at worst, 3P = NOT an instant-lynch in a scum-heavy game.

3. Knowing there are more scum than usual doesn't automatically make us trust town information. Town is fallible. You even built in anti-town results on a Rolecop.



I just don't think heavy skepticism was unwarranted. I am clearly in the minority, however.

[Yakumo]

I don't know.  I mean, I can see why lynching Rat immediately would have been a good idea, but on the other hand, when you get right down to it ending the day that quickly and taking out that particular scum would very possibly have made things worse for town.  It would likely mean two less dead scum, for one, as Rat doesn't kill one and Smodge wouldn't have had all the information he used to decide on Xanth as a target so might have picked someone else.  Alex doesn't get stuck on the ill-fated Delta train and doesn't look nearly as bad, so Smodge and his (no offense, you are getting better) limited persuasional skills are the only real thing threatening him at that point.

Frankly, this game looks to me like it was horribly balanced in scum's favor, and the only thing that kept it competitive was scum paranoia that they expected it to be balanced more against them than it was.  I mean, the game could have been more or less over after night one.  Lynch a townie, Rat hits a townie, nightkill a townie, and the doc and cop miss their killable targets that night, and you go into day two with one more scum than town and the only reason the game isn't mathmatically over is because the scum can only force a tie, which is no lynch, and it's theoretically possible the scum could lose one more than the town does at night.  If even one townie votes for another on day two in that scenario, game over.  Scumhammer, and then best case scenario for the town is a equal number of scum and town end up dead by morning, which leads to ties again and the scum win.  Either the cop and doc both hit their NK targets and the scum get a NK, or the doc protects a townie and the cop hits his NK target are the best scenarios, and they both end up with one more scum than town the next day, and even though Alex can't use his vote that leaves again a tie and no lynch, and then there's nothing left the town can do to kill scum.

And this doesn't even take into account the myriad ways that town could fuck themselves.  Yeah.

Edit: No, wait, misread the number of players.  Hell, lynch a townie, Rat hits a townie, NK a townie, doc and cop fail to kill, and it IS game over night one.  What the hell, man.  The above still fits if Rat chooses not to risk the odds and shoot.  That's messed up.

[Captain K.]

Regarding Alex, we'd already discussed the issue when Strago made his day 1 mistake.  Scum had already been told "don't do that".

One more thing on why to lynch Carthrat, although it is more metagaming:  long-time players will remember Captain K.'s fondness for Zombie Cops.  Of course, most of the Townies were fairly new, so they wouldn't remember this.

[Xanth]

Edit: No, wait, misread the number of players.  Hell, lynch a townie, Rat hits a townie, NK a townie, doc and cop fail to kill, and it IS game over night one.  What the hell, man.  The above still fits if Rat chooses not to risk the odds and shoot.  That's messed up.

Not quite. Nearly, but not quite. You're forgetting that we only actually had a voting weight of five at the start, as Alex can't be on the same train as us.

[Yakumo]

Oh, goddamit, hit delete when I was going for edit.  Anyway.  The game started with 13 players.  Six of them were scum, so that leaves seven as town.  Alex has the vote restriction, so really you start the game with 7 town votes and 5 scum votes, more or less. 

Day one happens, and you lynch a townie(like what happened).  Now you've got 6 town votes and 5 scum votes.

Night one, let's say the doc protects the wrong person, and neither the doc or the cop hits the scum that they can NK.  So, the scum pulls off their nightkill, and now you're down to 5 town votes and 5 scum votes, effectively.  So the next day could go to no lynch if you felt like tipping your hand now, even without the Rat.  It would have a chance of backfiring, but not a great one.

Now, let's say Rat's power hits a townie instead of a scum like what actually happened.  Now you're down to 4 town votes and 5 functional scum votes.  You now control the lynch, and can take out another townie during the day phase and there's nothing town can do about it.  So, going into night 2, you're at 3 town votes and 5 scum votes.

Night 2, even if the doc and cop both hit their NK targets, that means the doc isn't protecting the right person so you end up with 2 scum and one town dead.  This brings the total going into day 3 to 2 town votes and 2 scum votes that work, so the town can't do better than no lynch, and no longer has a way to kill scum at night either.

Long winded, but yeah.  Even with only five functioning scum votes, it was possible for the game to be won night one.  And it was one random roll away from happening.

[Captain K.]

Well, I didn't want to admit this, but I was prepared to fudge the roll if Carthrat's power hit Town the first night.  I realized that it would be a game over in that situation.

Again, the game was designed to be balanced for 14 players.  Starting 1 short screwed up several different aspects of it.  I should have just waited to start until a fourteenth player signed up.